316 replies to this topic

[Reoh]

For perfect balance, every player would need access to the same equipment and mechs, even factional chasis' which were identical statwise would have hitbox differences. I think what we're going for here is counter-balance. An all encompassing system that is the least prone to being abused or trolled, which sticks as close to the canon as possible, and provides both teams with an even chance of winning. Giving one side better technology for the next 5-10 years (IRL) with no counter-balance is not going to work, just think about that. How many IS players are going to stick around for that long? How many players who would grow to love this game will be driven off? We want this game to work so we can all be playing it years from now, Quiaff(yes)?

From what I've seen of the current maps (in gameplay trailers) and if their premise holds true for all future maps, then the Clanner's notable range difference will be diminished (not eradicated). Even still they will launch (come March 2013), with harder hitting weapons that weigh less and frequently take less criticals. This includes things like Ferro-Fibrous and Endo-Steel construction techniques which take significantly less criticals than their IS equivalents, and XL engines which won't kill a clan mech losing a side torso (as IS equivalents will). While they may generate more heat (not always true), they have surplus tonnage, criticals, & smaller double-heat sinks that make up for it. A distinct clantech advantage with much higher access to all of these better technologies (even Solohma mechs). Some balancing mechanic is required for the prosperity of MWO.

Just going by the numbers of mechs won't work (It's an idea I've suggested before, but now disagree with). It doesn't take into account the unit compositions, nor does it factor in for the diffusion of new & clan technologies into the IS over time. Battle Value however does! Thank you those people that brought it up, It will match sides most accurately. Earlier in the invasion IS will have more mechs while later when the technological advantage of the Clans has diminished it will still match up as evenly as possible. This also avoids the problem of having some players paying for an unfair advantage. It's canonicaly correct, and accurately balances IS vs IS \ Clan vs Clan too.

[edit]

Wanted to address a post made while I was posting this.

I don't think having the IS with all the newbloods, and the Clans with a guarantee of great players only is a good idea. I think the reasons why are pretty obvious.

Edited by Reoh, 29 June 2012 - 08:21 AM.

[Syro]

Remarius, on 29 June 2012 - 08:07 AM, said:

Have to pick up on that because its innacurate. Twycross and Wolcot were the first two victories by the Inner Sphere over the clans and have no relation to when the first salvage was available. The reality is we have no idea when the first salvage was available as the novels covered maybe 1% of what happened in the innersphere and from specific viewpoints. There are also technicians fitting and maintaining clan items well before Wolf's Dragoons started training outsiders formally to use clan tech - the Gray Death Legion is well documented for that and its mentioned on several other units.

Wasn't aware that Gray Death had been refitted with Clan tech early in the invasion. I knew they owned a great deal of lostech. And, as you say, we have no real idea if clantech had been salvaged during any of the other battles, but, given that the clans were really only permitting comstar on and off world, and it is clear that comstar could nt get their hands on any tech, it is very unlikely that there were any other sources of salvage. There are no indications that units escaped off-world with captured mechs or armor, prior to Twycross and Wolcott. But even if they did, and I'm willing to accept it, it would be something to the effect of "There is ONE clan erppc or ONE clan SSRM6 floating around". Until victories became more prevalent, until the dragoons began refits, there simply wasn't a market of clantech.

[Sable]

I think the clan mechs and tech should remain how they are according to the lore and previous game. The clans were deadly not just because they were pilots bread for war their whole life but also because they had longer ranges, more damage and better armor. The weapons they did have that were similar were also lighter in weight which meant more armor and heat sinks as well as having omni hardpoints for a larger range of customizaion. That doesn't mean they were unkillable or unstoppable. I hope PGI stays true to that for the sake of the game. i get sick of games that focus on balancing issues so much that they kill the lore of the game. Some stuff is simply better than other stuff and you just gotta deal with it.

[Braedin]

ok, now the clans are supposed to be bigger badder and kick your butt. while the inner sphere lost technology the clans kept getting more and more technology. is it fair that they are that way? who knows. get over it. easy way to get over their superior range. is close the gap get close. it is all about skill. you young ones who dont like hard or difficult things. get over it. that is life. it is not easy. but as the war with the clans go on you will get better tech. until then suck it up buttercup and stop the whining.

also dont forget, the clans bid away troops for combat. so you will not face the equal number of mechs and or tonnage when fighting the clans. improve your skill and learn some strategy.

Edited by Braedin, 29 June 2012 - 08:37 AM.

[Isingdeath]

Sable, on 29 June 2012 - 08:19 AM, said:

I think the clan mechs and tech should remain how they are according to the lore and previous game. The clans were deadly not just because they were pilots bread for war their whole life but also because they had longer ranges, more damage and better armor. The weapons they did have that were similar were also lighter in weight which meant more armor and heat sinks as well as having omni hardpoints for a larger range of customizaion. That doesn't mean they were unkillable or unstoppable. I hope PGI stays true to that for the sake of the game. i get sick of games that focus on balancing issues so much that they kill the lore of the game. Some stuff is simply better than other stuff and you just gotta deal with it.

The problem with that is the whole game will break down. No one will fight for the Houses (well except for people who liked to lose or impossible odds) and in your quest for realism the universe will actually become more unrealistic. If we are going that route than just make the game in clan space before the invasion with the various clans fighting it out for the hunks of rocks that they called home. The way the IS combated the clans in BT lore was they had superior numbers and the clans rigidly adhered to a set of rules of warfare. In this game with better tech everyone will flock to the clans (so no IS superior numbers) and human players that are clans will most assuredly not follow strict rules like they would in the books.

Edited by Isingdeath, 29 June 2012 - 08:32 AM.

[Thontor]

Xune, on 28 June 2012 - 10:55 PM, said:

When ever 2 CLan mechs shoot the same target the whole Clan team gets 0 Exp/0 C-bills and get ther mechs taken away for becoming dezgra easy as that

what he said

[Viper69]

Who is to say they wont assign battle values to mechs? For all we know you could have a full team of IS mechs against clan mechs. Would people still wring their hands if the game put a battle value weight to balance sides?

[Syro]

I think this whole thread can really be stopped pretty easily.
1) Clans should be Co-Op, at leats for the near future
2) Per Canon, the Clans realized they were OP, and modified their rules of engagement to suite - in the bidding for the battle of Wolcott, the Clan commander tells Hohiro that they will attack with half the strength of the forces defending. We have company sized engagments? Cool. CPU Clanners field 5 or 6 mechs. And, early on, walk off the battlefield with 4 or 5 intact mechs, and 1 or 2 moderately damaged mechs.

[SilvaDraconis]

I look forward to seeing how the design team handles this topic because everyone's views just enforce how difficult keeping server balance will be when there are no NPC forces you can beef up to counter a surge to one side or the other.

As far as making the clan technology (mechs especially) "balanced" with inner sphere tech, well I'm against it. The entire reason the clan forces were able to drive so deep, so fast through multiple control spheres was their superiority of tech. It gave them an advantage even over the inner sphere honorless combat system which I imagine (based on stories and canon) includes mech losses at the beginning of fights near automatically when clan pilots single up and inner sphere gang up.

But thankfully we have a year or more to go before any of this becomes a concern for the average players. Designers may lose sleep on this topic but hopefully we'll only lose sleep enjoying the game.

[Syro]

Xune, on 29 June 2012 - 01:55 AM, said:

Quote

Quote

When ever 2 CLan mechs shoot the same target the whole Clan team gets 0 Exp/0 C-bills and get ther mechs taken away for becoming dezgra easy as that

what he said

Actually, that post touches on the reason i think the community warfare portion of the game could quickly fall apart. With no perma-death (in terms of equipment, anyway), there will be more and more mechs on the field, no faction will ever feel stressed, and the markets will be flat. who cares what the cost of a mech is this week. next week, it'll be the same. Now, if we had equipment actually being destroyed, you would run into equipment availability issues, price fluctuations, etc.

Now, i understand why there is no equipment destruction. Chances are, before long, half of the playerbase would be Disposessed. I still wish there were some mechanism for handling this, to make the game that much deeper. I supose, though, it is balaced by the fact that not all factions are going to have a large pilot base online all the time.

[Zainredding]

RoyalWave is right. A 100 ton IS mech needs to be on par with a 100 ton Clan mech. Period. Otherwise no one will play the IS mechs. No one will handicap themselves just so they can play a mech in their houses armory.

Edited by Zainredding, 29 June 2012 - 08:49 AM.

[CmdrSpider]

Perspective and truth don't always see eye to eye. So somewhere between the two is lies our answer. I believe that games matched up ton for ton, mech for mech, IS vs Clan would result in so many onsided battles that alot of your play for free player would quickly be swept the way of the Star League and their mechwarrior hearts crushed. I'm all for paying for improved mechs, weapons just for the record. With this in mind let's go back to the rich history of the clans. The clans were known for bidding (low bidder wins) to see who would have the privelege of fighting in the upcoming battle.

This easily translates into options for game play. A player can choose the type of match he will participate in (i.e. IS vs IS, IS vs Clan or Clan vs Clan). The next step would be to have two basic types of matches, the first of these is "Matchmaker" arranged in which the matchmaker determines whose fighting based on their mechs build points (sorry forget the proper name for this, but I remember a system for rating mechs) which then at least in theroy gives each side and equal chance of winning the battle.

The second method allows teams to post their battle ready unit stats which would show mech types, tonnage and unit points. Other teams would then bid to see what units they will bring against them. Any team could refuse a challenge or issue a counter challenge.

For some an equal fight is all they ask, while others will crave the chance to overcome 4 to 1 odds and some will look only for those they can slaughter. In this universe each warrior must seek his fate, may honor and skill reign.

Living The Victory,

CmdrSpider

[Syro]

Zainredding, on 29 June 2012 - 08:49 AM, said:

RoyalWave is right. A 100 ton IS mech needs to be on par with a 100 ton Clan mech. Period. Otherwise no one will play the IS mechs. No one will handicap themselves just so they can play a mech in their houses armory.

EVENTUALLY. We do not know, yet, when the clan mechs will even be playable. It could very well be that, a year and a half down the road, the devs decide to "Fast Forward" a decade, so taht equivalent tech is available. Until then, team up, shoot smart, stay low

[Syro]

You know, thinking about this, I think the whole point of MWO is going to be overcoming the clans ealry on. If you want another game wher eyou can just hop into any old mech and equip it with a mix of IS and Clan tech, MW 4 Mercs is probably your best bet. But i really think that the Devs are shooting for an environment where we have to fight out ***** off to stay above water.

[why485]

I don't think you should be able to play as a Clanner at all. However, I do have one idea as an attempt to balance out the complete superiority of Clan Tech with one simple change. Go the Mech Commander route.

If you lose any piece of Clan technology, it's gone forever. Say you drop into a battle with that spiffy new Madcat you just salvaged. If you get taken down, that Mech, along with all the Clan tech on it is now gone forever. The only way to get it back is to get lucky in another one of those speculated Co-op type games and salvage a Madcat. The same goes for any equipment you might want to pack into your IS mech. If you found a great Clan ER PPC, and you get destroyed in a battle, that gun is now gone forever, and the only way you can get a new one is to salvage it from an NPC clan mech.

The above all runs on the assumption that there is a random NPC Clan match that happens every once in awhile, and that salvage will work like the older Mechwarrior games.

[Syro]

why485, on 29 June 2012 - 09:06 AM, said:

I don't think you should be able to play as a Clanner at all. However, I do have one idea as an attempt to balance out the complete superiority of Clan Tech with one simple change. Go the Mech Commander route.

If you lose any piece of Clan technology, it's gone forever. Say you drop into a battle with that spiffy new Madcat you just salvaged. If you get taken down, that Mech, along with all the Clan tech on it is now gone forever. The only way to get it back is to get lucky in another one of those speculated Co-op type games and salvage a Madcat. The same goes for any equipment you might want to pack into your IS mech. If you found a great Clan ER PPC, and you get destroyed in a battle, that gun is now gone forever, and the only way you can get a new one is to salvage it from an NPC clan mech.

The above all runs on the assumption that there is a random NPC Clan match that happens every once in awhile, and that salvage will work like the older Mechwarrior games.

I could get behind something like that

[Fire for Effect]

Zainredding, on 29 June 2012 - 08:49 AM, said:

RoyalWave is right. A 100 ton IS mech needs to be on par with a 100 ton Clan mech. Period. Otherwise no one will play the IS mechs. No one will handicap themselves just so they can play a mech in their houses armory.

It does not have to be while individual Clan Mechs are more powerful just pair according to battle strength. This means either less Clan players: 3 clan vs 8 IS or that the clanners will have less tonnage 4 Md Clan mechs against 1 Md 2 Hv and an Assualt IS. You are not forced to have equal number of players on each side...

[Tsunamisan]

Why not just give them a clan tech pilot tree they have to rank up to use chan mechs and tech

[Bagheera]

Sable, on 29 June 2012 - 08:19 AM, said:

I think the clan mechs and tech should remain how they are according to the lore and previous game. The clans were deadly not just because they were pilots bread for war their whole life but also because they had longer ranges, more damage and better armor. The weapons they did have that were similar were also lighter in weight which meant more armor and heat sinks as well as having omni hardpoints for a larger range of customizaion. That doesn't mean they were unkillable or unstoppable. I hope PGI stays true to that for the sake of the game. i get sick of games that focus on balancing issues so much that they kill the lore of the game. Some stuff is simply better than other stuff and you just gotta deal with it.

You can have a clan mech exactly as it is in the lore, as long as you are bound to pilot it in the following manner:

Quote

Rules
The proscriptions of zellbrigen consist of the following rules:

• Each warrior will issue a challenge to a different enemy. If one side outnumbers the other, then the extra warriors on that side will stand aside until one of their comrades falls in battle. A warrior can challenge more than one unit at a time.^[4]
  
• A warrior has right to refuse challenges from Inner Sphere units, especially if underhanded ploys are suspected.^[4]
  
• A warrior has the right to refuse a challenge from an unit of differing weight class if other unengaged units are available.^[4]
  
• No artillery or other Area-Effect Weapons shall be employed by either side.^[4]
  
• Intentionally moving out of the line of sight of the opponent is prohibited.^[4]
  
• Systems that requires multiple units to operate, like C3 and TAG, are forbidden.^[4]
  
• Moving out of weapon range is prohibited.^[4]
  
• Failure to fire a weapon when possible is prohibited.^[4]

A warrior is also expected to not retreat from inferior foes, or to engage his opponent in melee combat, though these are not part of the formal rules of zellbrigen.^[4] Also, though it plays a central role in Clans' combat challenges, the ritual of batchall remains a separate tradition.

Clan mechs without Zell are just MunchkinMobiles on the PowerGamerExpressway.

And I mean bound, no "Oh sure I will do that," but actual mechanics in game that enforce Zell.

Not going to happen you say? Oh, then I guess we're back to looking at balance issues.

Edited by Bagheera, 29 June 2012 - 09:59 AM.

[Rejarial Galatan]

1. Clan mechs are technologically superior to Inner Sphere mechs. Why? Because the clans did NOT lose starleague technology, and constantly improved what they had. The Inner Sphere lost this technology thanks to the Succession Wars and by Canon and Lore, they ARE inferior to the Clans for this reason. You do not like this? Tough. It is established in the tabletop, the novels, the cartoon and every single source book says this for fact. You cannot expect the developers to go against this, because they said they are trying to stick as close to table top as they can. Field superior numbers to strike a balance. It is the only option.

2. Saying that a Clan faction pilot can only fight one on one or else he or she forfeits rewards for the whole team is nonsense. Clan law states that if they suspect the enemy is using dishonorable tactics they can fight however they must to gain victory. And in most cases when fighting Inner Sphere forces the Zelbrigen is not used because the Inner Sphere forces do not know of it, and thusly cannot be held to it, because normal IS tactics would appear to be dishonorable, and cancel the Zell anyway.

3. This game is stated to be PURE Player Versus Player. So, logically Clans will be player selectable Faction.

I am sorry if this offends people, but, this is how it must be, or why claim to follow table top and just toss it out the window?