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Melee Combat In Mwo


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#21 MysticLink

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Posted 26 February 2015 - 06:59 PM

It would take a lot of skill to get that close to an enemy and not die from the other team. You would have to time it right with your team, pick the right target - so it should be high reward - high risk mechanic. I like the idea.

#22 Simbacca

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Posted 26 February 2015 - 07:15 PM

View PostBurktross, on 27 January 2015 - 05:00 PM, said:

There's more to melee than hatchets, you know.

The Axeman would have something to say about that....

And yes, I want that mech in game, even if the Axe is just for show.

#23 zeta44

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Posted 26 February 2015 - 07:24 PM

If I can get my kit fox to deliver a left hand punch to a mechs center torso, then without withdrawing my mechs arm begin firing the twin machine guns mounted on that arm point blank into the mechs already vunerable torso then I'm happy

#24 Ryllen Kriel

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Posted 26 February 2015 - 08:30 PM

I have wanted melee combat in a mech game for a long time. But in MWO...it's doomed, unless it is made extremely difficult to be effective (Even then, people would complain about it being too difficult...but it needs to be). Otherwise you would have your usual assortment of griefers and teamkillers running about in spawn or entire packs of 12 man teams just bum-rushing for a melee free for all. Long or medium ranged weapons would quickly fall out of style in favor of fast engines and slugging it out at close range I fear.

Edited by Ryllen Kriel, 26 February 2015 - 08:32 PM.


#25 Rebas Kradd

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Posted 26 February 2015 - 08:55 PM

Probably beyond the engine's abilities.

#26 Paigan

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Posted 27 February 2015 - 12:15 AM

Oh god please no.

Melee for Mechs of this size is nothing else than childish anime kindergarten.
It makes no sense in either tactical or scientific way. It's just a simple minded fantasy of "OMG look, they beat each other up, kung fu style".

I was SO happy when all those ridiculous melee weapons slowly disappeared.
Just like the transformer mechs.
That's one of many little things that slowly made Battletech a little more mature and not so crazy japanese (no offense ... on the other hand ...)

I remember times when even the Griffin had a f***ing SWORD in his hand (google "Crescent Hawk's Revenge", the blue mech selection screen. Hilarious.)

#27 Impossible Wasabi

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Posted 27 February 2015 - 12:23 AM

Can we get working hit registration for ranged weapons first?

Then maybe add working collision.

After those two have been fixed/added, maybe PGI can consider adding melee combat.

#28 Kiiyor

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 10:15 PM

View PostEonai, on 28 January 2015 - 01:07 AM, said:

To add to that, what happens when two melee weapons hit each other?


Posted Image

#29 Jaeger Gonzo

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 10:58 PM

View PostPaigan, on 27 February 2015 - 12:15 AM, said:

Oh god please no.

Melee for Mechs of this size is nothing else than childish anime kindergarten.
It makes no sense in either tactical or scientific way. It's just a simple minded fantasy of "OMG look, they beat each other up, kung fu style".

I was SO happy when all those ridiculous melee weapons slowly disappeared.
Just like the transformer mechs.
That's one of many little things that slowly made Battletech a little more mature and not so crazy japanese (no offense ... on the other hand ...)

I remember times when even the Griffin had a f***ing SWORD in his hand (google "Crescent Hawk's Revenge", the blue mech selection screen. Hilarious.)

Maybe you are childish, but not axeman.

#30 mike29tw

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 11:07 PM

View PostAlistair Winter, on 28 January 2015 - 12:35 AM, said:

Plenty of computer games out there with good melee, but we need to be looking at multiplayer games, not single player games.

I think many of us will remember computer games that implemented melee very poorly, like Jedi Knight 1 & 2, where light saber combat became more like jousting. Melee also looks ridiculous in FPS games like Counter Strike, where people are circle strafing and slashing their knives through the air.

Can anyone come up with examples of a multiplayer FPS that did melee the way we want to see it in MWO?


Hands down Chivalry: Medieval Warfare.

I'd say PGI should start small with this. I'm not familiar with the melee rules in TT but allowing mechs with hand actuator to perform a simple punch with CD might be a good start.

Suddenly, an Atlas is a lot more fearsome than a Direwolf in close quarters.

#31 Manei Domini Krigg

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 11:20 PM

Its no reason to melee.

#32 stjobe

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 02:12 AM

Melee combat is a very important part of BattleTech, and as such should not be abandoned lightly if MWO really strives to be "a BattleTech game".

There are five types of melee attacks, three of which do damage to a target only, and two which to damage to both target and attacker:

Punch (tonnage / 10)
Club (tonnage / 5)
Kick (tonnage / 5)

These basic attacks can be implemented very simply; you hit a button (e.g. 'p' for punch, 'k' for kick), your 'mech does an animation and if it hits anything it does damage. The difference between punch and club is just having a club or not (and to wield a club/axe/sword etc you need hands)

Charge (attacker tonnage / 10 x speed to target, target tonnage / 10 to attacker)
Death From Above (attacker tonnage / 10 x 3 to target, target tonnage / 10 to attacker)

These two attacks differ from the three basic attacks in that both 'mechs take damage - however both are basically just collision damage and shouldn't be all that hard to implement. To differentiate a charge from just running into someone, and to get charge damage applied, you would have to aim your 'mech towards a target and press a charge attack key.

Same for DFA, to differentiate it from just clipping someone while jumping over them, you'd have to press a DFA key and then jump.

Of all these attacks, I see DFA as the most problematic to implement, since jump jets are so anaemic in the current implementation of MWO. The other four attacks shouldn't really present any real issues for a dev team that had the time and inclination to implement them.

#33 mike29tw

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 02:39 AM

View Poststjobe, on 01 March 2015 - 02:12 AM, said:

Melee combat is a very important part of BattleTech, and as such should not be abandoned lightly if MWO really strives to be "a BattleTech game".

There are five types of melee attacks, three of which do damage to a target only, and two which to damage to both target and attacker:

Punch (tonnage / 10)
Club (tonnage / 5)
Kick (tonnage / 5)

These basic attacks can be implemented very simply; you hit a button (e.g. 'p' for punch, 'k' for kick), your 'mech does an animation and if it hits anything it does damage. The difference between punch and club is just having a club or not (and to wield a club/axe/sword etc you need hands)

Charge (attacker tonnage / 10 x speed to target, target tonnage / 10 to attacker)
Death From Above (attacker tonnage / 10 x 3 to target, target tonnage / 10 to attacker)

These two attacks differ from the three basic attacks in that both 'mechs take damage - however both are basically just collision damage and shouldn't be all that hard to implement. To differentiate a charge from just running into someone, and to get charge damage applied, you would have to aim your 'mech towards a target and press a charge attack key.

Same for DFA, to differentiate it from just clipping someone while jumping over them, you'd have to press a DFA key and then jump.

Of all these attacks, I see DFA as the most problematic to implement, since jump jets are so anaemic in the current implementation of MWO. The other four attacks shouldn't really present any real issues for a dev team that had the time and inclination to implement them.


Thanks for the detailed write-up.

However I'm not too keen on assigning a key for every type of melee attack. Can punch/club/kick be performed while moving? I'm thinking maybe a single contextual key for melee(two at most), if pressed below X% of your throttle, you punch; if pressed above X% of your throttle, you charge; if pressed in mid-air, you perform DFA, something along those lines.

BTW, does performing melee damage produce any heat in TT? I think the pace of close ranged combat will be drastically changed with the introduction of melee moves, and both heat and CD of melee attacks will play huge roles in it. Do we want the CD to accomodate a alpha-punch-alpha cycle? Or more of a alpha-punch-torso twist-alpha cycle?

Edited by mike29tw, 01 March 2015 - 02:40 AM.


#34 Weeny Machine

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 02:44 AM

I would really love to have melee combat in MWO. It is a big part of the BT universe after all. Equally I'd love to see mechs like Hatchetman, Axeman and Berserker. However, the dude below is (unfortunately) right. First the rubberbanding mechanic must be changed or else we would have a kind of Benny Hill Show fights

View PostXythius, on 27 January 2015 - 04:32 PM, said:

I think melee is a system that is unnecessary in MWO at the current time.  We already have hitreg issues with certain weapons/'mechs and even invisible walls on some terrain features.  Combine that with the atrocious rubber banding effect that occurs in close contact with another 'mech and you will just have another system that doesn't work well given the parameters at hand.
No.
Edit:You cannot e.g. fire arm-mounted weapon with the arm you used for punshing/Clubbing. However, you can use both arms simultanously. A kick also required a piloting check if you missed if I am not mistaken or you landed on your arse.

Edited by Bush Hopper, 01 March 2015 - 03:03 AM.


#35 stjobe

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 03:18 AM

View Postmike29tw, on 01 March 2015 - 02:39 AM, said:

However I'm not too keen on assigning a key for every type of melee attack. Can punch/club/kick be performed while moving? I'm thinking maybe a single contextual key for melee(two at most), if pressed below X% of your throttle, you punch; if pressed above X% of your throttle, you charge; if pressed in mid-air, you perform DFA, something along those lines.

Melee attacks in TT had their own phase, so they could be performed after e.g. moving your full running MP. There was a rule that you could not use any weapons on an arm used for punching though, and charge/DFA took all your movement/attacks (i.e. you could not move/fire before doing a charge/DFA).

View Postmike29tw, on 01 March 2015 - 02:39 AM, said:

BTW, does performing melee damage produce any heat in TT? I think the pace of close ranged combat will be drastically changed with the introduction of melee moves, and both heat and CD of melee attacks will play huge roles in it. Do we want the CD to accomodate a alpha-punch-alpha cycle? Or more of a alpha-punch-torso twist-alpha cycle?

Melee attacks do not generate any heat (except for the inherent heat due to moving/jumping in the case of charge/DFA). I suggest throwing a punch puts all the weapons on that arm on CD when the punch is made, and charging/DFA puts all weapons on CD as soon as the charge/DFA button is pressed.

Basically, in TT you had a choice if someone was up close (adjoining hex): Fire all your weapons AND kick them, or fire some of your weapons AND punch with one arm. The Hatchetman was specifically designed to take advantage of this, with a free arm without any other weapons than a hatchet - it could fire all its weapons AND strike with its hatchet in melee.

An Atlas that got next to a target could fire its AC/20 for 20 damage AND kick for 20 more damage. It sure made standing next to an Assault a very dodgy prospect for a light 'mech :)

Finally, for your reading enjoyment, I give you this excerpt from Technical Readout: 3025, p 10 (entry for the Wasp):

Technical Readout: 3025, p 10 said:

A major design flaw of the 'Mech was discovered during the Reunification War (2575-2597). During the Battle of Imbros III in March 2580, the tactic of jump-kicking gained popularity. With this maneuver, jump-capable light and medium 'Mechs could jump and smash their leg components into the head and upper torso of opposing units, hoping to cause more damage than they inflicted upon themselves.

This tactic was very popular among Wasp warriors, as it improved their offensive potential somewhat. Practitioners of the tactic soon learned that most Wasps were only able to use the jump-kick once, even if the leg damage was repaired before another close combat. After performing the first or second jump-kick, the lower leg assemblies on the Wasp would actually rip away from the body at the instant of impact, leaving the 'Mech totally immobile in the field.

The problem was finally traced to the stress bars along the actuator paths in the lower leg components. The designer had never dreamed that a tactic such as jump-kicking would be developed for lighter 'Mechs, and so had not given them the monomolecular stress-resistant material used on newer and heavier'Mech types. By 2160, nearly all Wasps and other light 'Mechs were rebuilt with MMSR actuator bars, alleviating the amputation problem.


#36 Weeny Machine

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Posted 04 March 2015 - 11:12 AM

Has anyone twittered Russ about melee, by the way? I'd do it myself but I am not into Twitter at all.

#37 ArchMage Sparrowhawk

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Posted 04 March 2015 - 12:10 PM

So from what I've seen, the max damage that would happen with a 100 ton mech doing melee with a club or melee weapon would be a 15~20 dmg hit.

That is pocket change in comparison to the current Megaton Alpha meta with 80 point alphas at long range being the norm.

So really I don't see what the fear is if any could be valid. Added mechanic but won't throw balance out of wack, or give a lot of chance for abuse, because a medium kick for 8 damage would immediately be met with two AC20s to the chin.

So with a DFA jump...a locked on jump sequence that comes with a 3 second shutdown, with 10 points of damage to the head of the target and knockdown recovery time. This would make certain people start armoring their cockpits for sure.

Edited by ArchMage Sparrowhawk, 04 March 2015 - 12:14 PM.


#38 Waffles 2pt0

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Posted 04 March 2015 - 12:19 PM

Images and Videos hidden for ease of readability ...


View PostZelthar the mecha wizard, on 27 January 2015 - 07:30 PM, said:

If PGI does bring in melee combat, they should do it like the "Zandatsu" from Metal Gear Rising: Revengence.
Spoiler


Yes. This. Perfect!




View PostDaZur, on 26 February 2015 - 11:30 AM, said:

Sorry... This is all I see when the topic of melee in MW:O comes up considering the marginal animations we are afforded.
Spoiler


I am invisioning a tournament of nothing but Atlas and Executioners duking it out for a custom Gold Belt Decal. :lol:

#39 Anyone00

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Posted 04 March 2015 - 01:02 PM

1) It would take a fair amount of work for the animations to be added
2) Take a look at the following video to see the state of collisions in this game


#40 justin xiang

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Posted 04 March 2015 - 02:22 PM

Melee is good. Would definitely add to the game to be able to at least kick another mech.







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