322 replies to this topic

[Sarlic]

Obviously alot of people don't want to play or have mixed loadouts.

Just a pick of what i am seeing lately:

• Stalker with only LL. Nothing else.
  
• Direwolfs with only CUAC. Nothing else.
  
• Thunderbolts with ER PPC. Nothing else.
  
• Thunderbolts 5K with only MPLs. Nothing else.
  
• King crabs with only UAC. Nothing else.
  
• Stormcrows with only Streaks. Nothing else.
  
• Firestarters with only SMPLs. Nothing else.
  
• Wolverines with LSMPL. Nothing else.
  
• Maddog with SRMS6. Nothing else.
  
• Cidada with PPCs. Nothing else.
  
• Raven with only ERLL. Nothing else.
  
• Jager with AC40 or Gauss Rilfes. Nothing else.
  
  
  Pretty sure there is more of this.

Making mixed loadout, making use of the hardpoints layout provided and variety on different ranges are obsoleted or getting rare to see. (Solo que)



I am getting pretty tired of this vomit, wubbee, dakka or you name it.

This is no meta or whatever you may call it. This is 'crap' and has in my opinion nothing to do with customizing at all. With people sharing high alpha builds, dropping hardpoints in order to get the most out of their mech. Or should i say [insert vomit technology] here is something i have been seeing alot more in the game. And it's increasing by the day.

I, for once will speak out loud.

Look, i like to customize as well. And it's a challenge to fill in all the hardpoints you need in order to profit on all ranges. Customising your mech is one of the fun most things ingame. Both making it your mech and outfit personal as it gets. Camo-paint and you're ready to go.
But things change when people are intentionally dropping hardpoints in order to get more 'dakka' or 'vomit'.

Tired of seeing these builds over and over again and shows that people only play as a invidual for getting the highest damage as possible.

That's no build for teamwork.

Nothing wrong with making brawlers and such. You can do that with all hardpoints filled in. Less 'dakka' or 'vomit', but more skillfull and fun. Back in the days of both closed and open beta we had to deal with the same issue. Unfortunatly, this issue still excists because we are still dealing with the same symptoms as we had with the Gauss cats and or PPC's only builds in Closed Beta.

I am talking about a requirement: basic thing of filling all hardpoint prior to launch in battle. Numerous people have tried to brough this subject up multiple times, unfortunatly up to now without any succes. Scrapped the idea.

I am sure plenty of people have discussed about the hardpoints loadout, a better idea for quirking certain mechs etc. Plenty of threads about it. For example Deathlike had a post somewhere with a interesting though on the HPs.

From my original standing, but i removed it after Bishop and Joseph pointed something out which i haven't though of. Therfor scrapped it.

Bishop Steiner, on 13 February 2015 - 07:19 AM, said:

Don't agree with having to fill every hardpoint anymore than I do with the generic vomit builds, but it was a good read with some interesting ideas. That said, most stock mechs don't fill every hardpoint, like the CN9-A that has 2 ballistic, 3 Missile and 2 energy. That leaves 3 unfilled hardpoints, just to use it stock. Therefore, the idea can't really work. Really the only thing to do, atm, is to keep GH (and possibly even enhance some aspects of it) and continue to use quirks to try to reward and encourage more diverse loadouts.

The Pros? They'll keep boating, regardless. End of the day, they play a very different game than 90% of the playerbase. And there is nothing wrong with that. The only issue is when the 1% tries to get the game built to reflect their minmax boating desires. Of course many of the lemmings follow suit, but the issues is, unless you are on a disciplined unit all using similar builds, those meta builds are rarely all that effective at actually helping the team win.

Unfortunately, 4-5 iterations of MW PvP, has always come down to the same issues.

Ofcourse there are some exception on excisting mechs who share high energy points. Or partcular mechs with high BP points.

Resumed: Yababababa
If you think i am whining just about a thing that everyone is 'free' to customize then i would like to tell you how much Thunderbolts only carrying the ERPPCs have you noticed in about the last couple, let's say, about three weeks?

The TDR is not alone in this particular case.

That's right. It's pretty obvious. Because of the quirks the TDR got buffed pretty good which people gladly make use of it. Just because it's so (terrible) good people are even buying the Mech and outfit it with that specific loadout.

"Look at that. My goodness. It has a LRM rack onboard. And a couple of lasers as well!"

"The greenies"
I am sure you have seen some new 'greenies' on your team. You have to carry, you have to learn and adapt, you have to aid and perhaps you have to tank for them. But have you ever noticed that particular 'greenie' is carrying a better loadout for the team then you?

The greenie might not be experienced, but i like his loadout way more then your [insert that vomit] loadout. They learn how to adapt a loadout with all weaponsvariety and ranges. I don't say he or she will be a top damage dealer, but their loadout in a supportive is way better.

Which i now come to the point that people are going for the -best of the best- obvious what's available at the time, which is really a shame actually.

Let me remind you of another example. When the Victor and the Dragon Slayer got introduced. Shortly after these wonderful chassis arrived people began to use to poptart with it. Yes..before you think out loud it was with PPCs.
Because the JJ (or better said Jump Jets) was alot more viable then now. With all the complaints of 'poptarting', PGI decided to adjust the JJ-system (The mechs got later). Which has elimited the poptarting for now.

Pinpoint damage have changed alot the past years. People got faster at it, tons of weaponvalues have been changed and new mechs added and or quirked. Koniving wrote for a excellent example about PP damage.

What happened with actually customising for the better goal; loadout variety. Or better said: a supreme cornerstone for your team. A allround- team supportive build with weapons variety on all ranges?

"My loadout, my game"
I like customizing as much as you do, but i am just here to point out that i am seeing a huge shift in terms of balance and loadouts which is in my eyes just as shameful just as the game mechanics is allowing it. Never ending imbalance. Am i saying that customising should be removed? Ofcourse not. ---> I am here to encourage more variety.

You can play whatever loadout you want. But when you go vomit, wubbee, dakka or you name it, you are playing, in my opinion, as a invidual. You will be missed on certain combat situations.

The solution?
I am no superman, and i do not have a solution ready for this. Boating will happen wether i like it or not but i can guarantee you that you will see more kind of this builds in the future.

The only thing i can hope for that PGI will keep encouraging continue to use quirks to try to reward, encourage more diverse loadouts in various combat situations.

In the end i am not sure how many people think the same as me, but i would like to encourage you to write your opinion, thoughs and perhaps even feedback in this thread.

Thank you for your understanding.

Keep it civilized folks. Appreciated.

Edited by Sarlic, 17 February 2015 - 05:59 AM.

[CygnusX7]

It's nice to see weapons other than gauss, ppc, uac5 and medium lasers being used.

[Ultimax]

Generalist builds are the ones that don't plan for teamwork, they want to cover every range or situation because they feel they can't rely on teammates.

Specialists rely on teammates to perform their specialty, most specialists have a weakness of some kind.

A generalists weakness is that they aren't very good at any particular thing.

If you want to play one, play it.

[Sarlic]

Ultimatum X, on 17 February 2015 - 06:28 AM, said:

Generalist builds are the ones that don't plan for teamwork, they want to cover every range or situation because they feel they can't rely on teammates.

Specialists rely on teammates to perform their specialty, most specialists have a weakness of some kind.

A generalists weakness is that they aren't very good at any particular thing.

If you want to play one, play it.

I don't call them specialists in any way. Sure, brining in a wubbee build involves a certain risk.
Generalist have more options to decide. They can harash, flank or even be supportive. For example a chassis with one ERLL and 2 MPL and a rack of LRM can harash the enemy way more then that 'full' energy loadout leaving optional HPs to be desired. that one have to rely on it's own in order to get in range. Specialists can only walk- along with the group and do one particular thing only within range when they fail, they fail miserably. I get your point, i am not talking about brawlers.

Heck it's a teambased game, i prefer generalists over the specialists.

If you want to play your specialists build, go ahead, but dont expect any sympathy for me on a chassis which still have their hardpoints to be desired.

We need rolewarfare. Things would be apart from this, different.

Edited by Sarlic, 17 February 2015 - 06:53 AM.

[Tombstoner]

Ultimatum X, on 17 February 2015 - 06:28 AM, said:

Generalist builds are the ones that don't plan for teamwork, they want to cover every range or situation because they feel they can't rely on teammates.

Specialists rely on teammates to perform their specialty, most specialists have a weakness of some kind.

A generalists weakness is that they aren't very good at any particular thing.

If you want to play one, play it.

My catapult build says otherwise.... 2x lrm 10's and 4 medium lasers. its very dependent on team mates.
If half of a team carried one lrm 10 thats 60 missals ruining someones day.

[Widowmaker1981]

One thing i dont understand about your point:

"But have you ever noticed that particular 'greenie' is carrying a better loadout for the team then you?"

Why do you think an ineffective mixed range loadout is better for the team than a specialised, effective one? If someone is getting high damage and kills, they are helping the team win. They MAY also be helping the team win without that, if they are spotting, or causing a distraction that allows a push to succeed, or tanking damage in an atlas to allow the team to push, or whatever.. but none of that is helped by running an ineffective loadout.

I think you actually just want people to be forced to run those loadouts because you want to (due to it being more "lore like" i suspect) but are aware that it is not effective and don't want to be gimping yourself in comparison.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 17 February 2015 - 06:53 AM.

[Lily from animove]

when modules get away and get overhauled, two modules means 2 benefits for weapons. and so you boat weapons getting pushed by those weapons.

When we get more complex weapongroupings.

have you tried a TBR prime stock? hirrble thing.

you have 2 ERLL, and of course, and 2 med lasers in the arms. this is already a problem, prper best ehatefficnet system would mean:

every arm solo controlled for every laser. menaing 4 groups here already.

yet, you also have a med pulse in the torso, 2 mg's and 2x lrm 20. now this makes up 7 weapongroups.

sure you can group all meds, even with the pulse. or you can make both CERLL the same group. but this will lead to indefficient situations, because you may shoot more lasers than wanted or needed or allowed, bring just disadvantages.

And so boating is easier. because their mechanics synchronise is better.
lasevomit timber is rather easy to control:

2 CERMLin each arm.
1 lpl in eahc torso.

and so: you cna just make it a

alpha group
a left lpl group
a right lpl group
one group for each arm (maybe in chainfie if you like)

Why mixing with more, its getting more complicated or less controlable. And oh, many people indeed play just with an office mouse meaning 3 buttons, so the comoftable controls there will be about having only 3 groups.

And so, No i am not missing combat situations, I have control about every weapon for every situations, while the Stock mode tbr will not be able to prepare his weapons for all situations. he will either have to blind fire some weapons with others, causing more heat than needed, or have to drop the usage for some weapons in some situations at all.

Edited by Lily from animove, 17 February 2015 - 06:54 AM.

[Dock Steward]

Sarlic, on 17 February 2015 - 06:46 AM, said:

I don't call them specialists in any way. Sure, brining in a wubbee build involves a certain risk.
Generalist have more options to decide. They can harash, flank or even be supportive. For example a chassis with one ERLL and 3 MPL can harash the enemy way more then that 4 MPL loadout, that one have to rely on it's own in order to get in range. Specialists can only walk- along with the group and do one particular thing only within range when they fail, they fail miserably.

Heck it's a teambased game, i prefer generalists over the specialists.

If you want to play your specialists build, go ahead, but dont expect any sympathy for me on a chassis which still have their hardpoints to be desired. I get your point, i am not talking about brawlers.

We need rolewarfare. Things would be apart from this, different.

I feel like you're proving Ultimatum's point. The specialists need the team more. People who build "well-rounded" tend to do so because they don't trust the team to fill in their gaps. Been that guy. Often it works in PUG's but nowhere else...

[Cyborne Elemental]

K.I.S.S.

If you only have 1 weapon type, with 1 range, it simplifies things.

Mixed loadouts just don't seem to offer the benefits you would expect, having 1 long range weapon, 1-2 midrange weapons, and the rest dumped into equipment or pointblank just doesn't work as well apparently.

If you only have to concentrate on that one single thing, you can be more effective in that role..

[Sarlic]

Widowmaker1981, on 17 February 2015 - 06:53 AM, said:

One thing i dont understand about your point:

"But have you ever noticed that particular 'greenie' is carrying a better loadout for the team then you?"

Why do you think an ineffective mixed range loadout is better for the team than a specialised, effective one? If someone is getting high damage and kills, they are helping the team win. They MAY also be helping the team win without that, if they are spotting, or causing a distraction that allows a push to succeed, or tanking damage in an atlas to allow the team to push, or whatever.. but none of that is helped by running an ineffective loadout.

I think you actually just want people to be forced to run those loadouts because you want to (due to it being more "lore like" i suspect) but are aware that it is not effective and don't want to be gimping yourself in comparison.

Tombstoner, on 17 February 2015 - 06:48 AM, said:

My catapult build says otherwise.... 2x lrm 10's and 4 medium lasers. its very dependent on team mates.
If half of a team carried one lrm 10 thats 60 missals ruining someones day.

This is what i am -somewhat- talking about. If people would bring a more mixed loadout in combat things would be different.

Did anyone ever notice the deck upon launching in a match?

You get one TDR with ERPPCs.
You perhaps get a Stalker with only LL.
You get a DW with perhaps only UAC
You get a FS with only SMPL

.. More socalled specialists.

Sure the variety in ranges are here, but we ARE talking about too many 'specialists' on one team.

That is the thing i go headscratching.

I am not talking about the particular one specialist on the team, but multiple wubbee, aka vomit builds on the que team.

Hope this clears up a little.

Edited by Sarlic, 17 February 2015 - 07:03 AM.

[Roadbuster]

TLDR.

But I get your point and I agree that min/maxing is boring an creates an environment where you can only succeed if you are a. a better player, or b. adapt and also play said min/max loadouts and mechs.
Out of the two options, it's far easier to run the "OP" loadouts and you can't blame people for doing that.

How about some kind of quirk unlock system?
If you want that "-10% Energy Heat" quirk you got to equip a missile system. Or if you want "SRM6 Cooldown" you have to equip AMS.
You want to play Gauss boat without backup weapons? Np, but you don't get ballistic quirks then.
You get the idea.

Ultimatum X, on 17 February 2015 - 06:28 AM, said:

Specialists rely on teammates to perform their specialty, most specialists have a weakness of some kind.

A generalists weakness is that they aren't very good at any particular thing.

And this is where you are wrong. Because the specialized builds don't require teamwork. The only exception being LRM boats, and you don't see them in competitive matches.
Most specialized builds focus on big alpha strikes to kill an opponent as fast as possible.
They are also easier to use than a build with 3-4 different weapon systems instead of 1-2.

And while it's true that generalists aren't good at any particulat thing, you could say that that's a reason why they require more teamplay to be successful.

Edited by Roadbuster, 17 February 2015 - 07:14 AM.

[Dock Steward]

Sarlic, on 17 February 2015 - 07:00 AM, said:

This is what i am -somewhat- talking about. If people would bring a more mixed loadout in combat things would be different.

Did anyone ever notice the deck upon launching in a match?

You get one TDR with ERPPCs.
You perhaps get a Stalker with only LL.
You get a DW with perhaps only UAC
You get a FS with only SMPL

.. More socalled specialists.

Sure the variety in ranges are here, but we ARE talking about too many 'specialists' on one team.

That is the thing i go headscratching.

I am not talking about the particular one specialist on the team, but multiple wubbee, aka vomit builds on the que team.

Hope this clears up a little.

No, it doesn't clear up much for me. If the team ends up with 6 direct fire mechs, 3 brawlers, 2 Lrm boats, and a scout (or whatever the specific mix might be), then that is a well rounded team. It doesn't matter that the individual mechs aren't well-rounded. THE TEAM is...

[Haji1096]

Sarlic, on 17 February 2015 - 05:34 AM, said:

Obviously alot of people don't want to play or have mixed loadouts.

Just a pick of what i am seeing lately:

• Stalker with only LL. Nothing else.
  
• Direwolfs with only CUAC. Nothing else.
  
• Thunderbolts with ER PPC. Nothing else.
  
• Thunderbolts 5K with only MPLs. Nothing else.
  
• King crabs with only UAC. Nothing else.
  
• Stormcrows with only Streaks. Nothing else.
  
• Firestarters with only SMPLs. Nothing else.
  
• Wolverines with LSMPL. Nothing else.
  
• Maddog with SRMS6. Nothing else.
  
• Cidada with PPCs. Nothing else.
  
• Raven with only ERLL. Nothing else.
  
• Jager with AC40 or Gauss Rilfes. Nothing else.
  
  
  
  
  
  Pretty sure there is more of this.

Making mixed loadout, making use of the hardpoints layout provided and variety on different ranges are obsoleted or getting rare to see. (Solo que)






I am getting pretty tired of this vomit, wubbee, dakka or you name it.

This is no meta or whatever you may call it. This is 'crap' and has in my opinion nothing to do with customizing at all. With people sharing high alpha builds, dropping hardpoints in order to get the most out of their mech. Or should i say [insert vomit technology] here is something i have been seeing alot more in the game. And it's increasing by the day.

I, for once will speak out loud.

Look, i like to customize as well. And it's a challenge to fill in all the hardpoints you need in order to profit on all ranges. Customising your mech is one of the fun most things ingame. Both making it your mech and outfit personal as it gets. Camo-paint and you're ready to go.
But things change when people are intentionally dropping hardpoints in order to get more 'dakka' or 'vomit'.

Tired of seeing these builds over and over again and shows that people only play as a invidual for getting the highest damage as possible.

That's no build for teamwork.

Nothing wrong with making brawlers and such. You can do that with all hardpoints filled in. Less 'dakka' or 'vomit', but more skillfull and fun. Back in the days of both closed and open beta we had to deal with the same issue. Unfortunatly, this issue still excists because we are still dealing with the same symptoms as we had with the Gauss cats and or PPC's only builds in Closed Beta.

I am talking about a requirement: basic thing of filling all hardpoint prior to launch in battle. Numerous people have tried to brough this subject up multiple times, unfortunatly up to now without any succes. Scrapped the idea.

I am sure plenty of people have discussed about the hardpoints loadout, a better idea for quirking certain mechs etc. Plenty of threads about it. For example Deathlike had a post somewhere with a interesting though on the HPs.

From my original standing, but i removed it after Bishop and Joseph pointed something out which i haven't though of. Therfor scrapped it.


Ofcourse there are some exception on excisting mechs who share high energy points. Or partcular mechs with high BP points.

Resumed: Yababababa
If you think i am whining just about a thing that everyone is 'free' to customize then i would like to tell you how much Thunderbolts only carrying the ERPPCs have you noticed in about the last couple, let's say, about three weeks?

The TDR is not alone in this particular case.

That's right. It's pretty obvious. Because of the quirks the TDR got buffed pretty good which people gladly make use of it. Just because it's so (terrible) good people are even buying the Mech and outfit it with that specific loadout.

"Look at that. My goodness. It has a LRM rack onboard. And a couple of lasers as well!"

"The greenies"
I am sure you have seen some new 'greenies' on your team. You have to carry, you have to learn and adapt, you have to aid and perhaps you have to tank for them. But have you ever noticed that particular 'greenie' is carrying a better loadout for the team then you?

The greenie might not be experienced, but i like his loadout way more then your [insert that vomit] loadout. They learn how to adapt a loadout with all weaponsvariety and ranges. I don't say he or she will be a top damage dealer, but their loadout in a supportive is way better.

Which i now come to the point that people are going for the -best of the best- obvious what's available at the time, which is really a shame actually.

Let me remind you of another example. When the Victor and the Dragon Slayer got introduced. Shortly after these wonderful chassis arrived people began to use to poptart with it. Yes..before you think out loud it was with PPCs.
Because the JJ (or better said Jump Jets) was alot more viable then now. With all the complaints of 'poptarting', PGI decided to adjust the JJ-system (The mechs got later). Which has elimited the poptarting for now.

Pinpoint damage have changed alot the past years. People got faster at it, tons of weaponvalues have been changed and new mechs added and or quirked. Koniving wrote for a excellent example about PP damage.

What happened with actually customising for the better goal; loadout variety. Or better said: a supreme cornerstone for your team. A allround- team supportive build with weapons variety on all ranges?

"My loadout, my game"
I like customizing as much as you do, but i am just here to point out that i am seeing a huge shift in terms of balance and loadouts which is in my eyes just as shameful just as the game mechanics is allowing it. Never ending imbalance. Am i saying that customising should be removed? Ofcourse not. ---> I am here to encourage more variety.

You can play whatever loadout you want. But when you go vomit, wubbee, dakka or you name it, you are playing, in my opinion, as a invidual. You will be missed on certain combat situations.

The solution?
I am no superman, and i do not have a solution ready for this. Boating will happen wether i like it or not but i can guarantee you that you will see more kind of this builds in the future.

The only thing i can hope for that PGI will keep encouraging continue to use quirks to try to reward, encourage more diverse loadouts in various combat situations.

In the end i am not sure how many people think the same as me, but i would like to encourage you to write your opinion, thoughs and perhaps even feedback in this thread.

Thank you for your understanding.

Keep it civilized folks. Appreciated.

Sarlic, I respectfully disagree with you here on one point.

I assert that (boating one type of weapon loadouts) is actually better for the team because its more efficient at killing the enemy team if that mech is played for the type of engagement that best suits its load out.

Its actually more team play oriented because a pilot has to trust his teammates to perform their respective role.
Furthermore, If I use a generalist load out I'm likely nerfing my own team's chances to win because I won't be as effective.


I agree that boating weapons is boring, but its the most effective way to play. A generalist build is too clunky to use effectively.

Edited by Haji1096, 17 February 2015 - 07:22 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

The discussion is moot. People will boat a certain weapon type in most cases simply because of the modules.

Edited by Bush Hopper, 17 February 2015 - 07:15 AM.

[Dock Steward]

Bush Hopper, on 17 February 2015 - 07:14 AM, said:

The discussion is moot. People will boat a certain weapon type in most cases simply because of the modules.

I'm not saying this isn't true for some people, but for me and all my various "boats," modules are an after thought, not the reason to "boat." I could strip all my modules right now, and my "boats" would suffer marginally.

Edited by Dock Steward, 17 February 2015 - 07:17 AM.

[Rhaythe]

Some players like to push just one button to win.

[Sarlic]

Mister D, on 17 February 2015 - 06:56 AM, said:

K.I.S.S.

If you only have 1 weapon type, with 1 range, it simplifies things.

Mixed loadouts just don't seem to offer the benefits you would expect, having 1 long range weapon, 1-2 midrange weapons, and the rest dumped into equipment or pointblank just doesn't work as well apparently.

If you only have to concentrate on that one single thing, you can be more effective in that role..

Maybe i am too complex in thinking.

Writing things out at the moment, trying to reply.

[Dock Steward]

Rhaythe, on 17 February 2015 - 07:18 AM, said:

Some players like to push just one button to win.

It's very difficult "to push one button and win." There's throttle...turning...targeting...lot's of buttons, man. How many buttons do I have to push for it to be okay with you when I win?

[RG Notch]

Tombstoner, on 17 February 2015 - 06:48 AM, said:

My catapult build says otherwise.... 2x lrm 10's and 4 medium lasers. its very dependent on team mates.
If half of a team carried one lrm 10 thats 60 missals ruining someones day.

Who's day gets ruined by LRMs? I would love to fight a team with each one carrying an LRM 10.

[Lily from animove]

Dock Steward, on 17 February 2015 - 07:16 AM, said:

I'm not saying this isn't true for some people, but for me and all my various "boats," modules are an after thought, not the reason to "boat." I could strip all my modules right now, and my "boats" would suffer marginally.

No its not, when you can get full firerate reduction anf range for your UAC 5 dakkawolf then you slap 6 of these things into it just because its a penalty free way to get the full benefit, and so you will not even consider using 2 AC 2's maybe for some range capabilities, or sacrifice some AC'5s for a pair of C(ER)LL.

when you plan a mech entire loadout, you will see the entire sum of the mech, and this will include all possible modules into planning as well otherwise you are not designing a loudout right from scratch.