192 replies to this topic

[washout]

CyclonerM, on 25 February 2015 - 02:31 PM, said:

Why would i want to drop as a pug, either in a Clan or an IS faction? I bet i would have a big disadvantage, even with VOIP.

Because if you drop as a pug in clans you will still win some matches vs. IS, you can't really say the same visa versa. Even organised groups have trouble with clan PUGs.

[washout]

reddevil, on 25 February 2015 - 02:42 PM, said:

Hmm. I'm not convinced about the Clan mechs being under-powered. The three common ones are just "really good" instead of just "regular" good.

I misread and thought you said they were not overpowered, which they are. But anyway I'll leave this here anyway.

Lets just take an example mech like the stormcrow laservomit, vs. maybe a hunchback laservomit. Which one comes out on top? The clan mech in trade for a longer burn time has double the range, higher alpha, and faster speed, for roughly the same heat, and for a slight cost you can turn it into a 5 SSRM6 murderboat instead, or a dual ERPPC peek sniper.

The same is true if you want to compare ERLL laser boats with the Timber Wolf (of which there is only one viable IS mech) and the Dire Wolf packs more weapons than even the most kitted out King Crab can dream of.

Edited by washout, 25 February 2015 - 02:57 PM.

[Felio]

Given that mixing and matching was a major selling point for me, this would be very disappointing.

[RedDevil]

Felio, on 25 February 2015 - 02:53 PM, said:

Given that mixing and matching was a major selling point for me, this would be very disappointing.

Nothing confirmed yet, so don't worry! On another note, this wouldn't change anything with current mix-match builds if my prediction is true. It would just boost up some canonical builds so they wouldn't suck as much.

To be honest, I highly doubt my prediction is what will actually happen.

[Metus regem]

Kain Thul, on 25 February 2015 - 10:58 AM, said:

Without Ghost Heat or other weird MWO-specific issues many of the canon builds would be great.

Imagine Nova Prime with 7 damage 5 heat ERML again and no Ghost Heat.

Imagine Warhawk Prime with full 15 damage Clan ERPPC, True DHS, no ghost heat and the crappy LRM 10 and its ammo removed in lieu of more DHS.

Imagine Adder Prime with true DHS and full 15 damage Clan ERPPC.

etc, etc

I do, and my TImber Wolf D cries a little in the cornere rocking its self back and forth, looking at all the female Timber Wolves running around...

FYI, Timber Wolves are like deer, the males have racks.

[washout]

Mcgral18, on 25 February 2015 - 02:38 PM, said:

Some IS mechs are significantly better than just about every Clam out there. Aside from perhaps 4? I can't really comment on the Whale, I hate the thing. Loki, Timby and Crow being the top performers.

Dragon, at 60 tons, can compete with all of them. It pumps out a rediculous amount of heatless damage. Second only to the Whale in the above mechs for sustained DPS?

5SS will brawl effectively at 400M, losing to only the specialised SRM+SPL Crows at sub 200M.

Besides, Clam quirks can only be good for the IS. It means we might actually be able to take more than 4 mechs. That means fewer Crows and TimberGods, if the robots are no longer Terribad.

Dragon-1N is fragile in exchange for that huge dps, all guns on one easy to hit arm, and the CT is also hard to miss, also it uses an IS XL engine. To do it's dps it has to stand in the open and trade shots.

The 5SS brawls at normal clan ranges, thats why people get upset? All the good clan brawling weapons hit out to 400, SSRMs and ERML, with a range mod the ERMPL are about the same range as one of the most quirked IS mechs and you can do that build on a mech with ECM, but who takes ERMPL on a hellbringer when you can take more powerful ERML and hit at longer range, and hey throw on a few ERLL while you are at it because they only weight 4 tons instead of the IS's 5.

[RedDevil]

washout, on 25 February 2015 - 03:23 PM, said:

and hey throw on a few ERLL while you are at it because they only weight 4 tons instead of the IS's 5.

The weight is a lot closer than it seems since you need the extra 1 ton heat sink to match IS ERLL heat levels. The extra range is nice of the Clan ERLL, but 700m or less engagements are probably what you're going to have unless your own a flat map (like that arctic mountain one), so both should be capable of their full damage when the fight starts.

[Mcgral18]

washout, on 25 February 2015 - 03:23 PM, said:

Dragon-1N is fragile in exchange for that huge dps, all guns on one easy to hit arm, and the CT is also hard to miss, also it uses an IS XL engine. To do it's dps it has to stand in the open and trade shots.

The 5SS brawls at normal clan ranges, thats why people get upset? All the good clan brawling weapons hit out to 400, SSRMs and ERML, with a range mod the ERMPL are about the same range as one of the most quirked IS mechs and you can do that build on a mech with ECM, but who takes ERMPL on a hellbringer when you can take more powerful ERML and hit at longer range, and hey throw on a few ERLL while you are at it because they only weight 4 tons instead of the IS's 5.

Dragon only needs to expose it's arm, or twist when the incoming laser vomit comes in, then fire again for 4 seconds during the recycle. 70 damage is no joke.

I'll take a 5SS over the Loki. Shorter burn time, less heat, more durable. Did you know the Thud has STs comparible to 90 tonners?


Did you seriously just suggest SSRMs as a brawling tool? Do you even use Clams? ERMLs are too hot to brawl with. SPLs are ideal brawling tools. The 150% heat is offset by increased range and damage.


By the way; the 5SS also does ERLLs BETTER than clan mechs, while also being cooler. It seems you really know nothing about quirks.

[washout]

Mcgral18, on 25 February 2015 - 03:51 PM, said:

Dragon only needs to expose it's arm, or twist when the incoming laser vomit comes in, then fire again for 4 seconds during the recycle. 70 damage is no joke.

I'll take a 5SS over the Loki. Shorter burn time, less heat, more durable. Did you know the Thud has STs comparible to 90 tonners?


Did you seriously just suggest SSRMs as a brawling tool? Do you even use Clams? ERMLs are too hot to brawl with. SPLs are ideal brawling tools. The 150% heat is offset by increased range and damage.


By the way; the 5SS also does ERLLs BETTER than clan mechs, while also being cooler. It seems you really know nothing about quirks.

You keep radically overstating everything IS has and understating the hell out of everything the clans get. That extra heat is offset by additional damage and range of clan weaponry, the burn time is hardly a disadvantage when you can fire out 3-4 50+ damage alphas.

As for the Dragon, how do you only expose an arm when the cockpit is needed to actually see the target? As soon as you are out there people are easily hitting the dragons CT, it's certainly not a bad mech and it's one of the best IS mechs but it sure gets a lot of downsides in exchange, unlike the laservomit builds.

As for Clan ERLL being "worse" than IS ones you are the one that must not have any idea what he is talking about, in one single case the 5SS can exceed the clans in range, barely, while doing 2 less damage per laser. So in reality they are finally, guess what, roughly equal, in one case, on one mech.

And it's your choice to use a gimped brawling tool with extremely short range, but hey at least you get that option of near viability. The only things in IS that would ever think about using small lasers are lights. The clan ERSL and ERSPL have about the same range as the IS medium equivalents. So think about how every other IS pilot feels when dueling you, and you think some of the roughly equal mechs should be nerfed in IS.

Right now the only balance that exists is that the Stalker-4N, Thunderbolt-5SS, Dragon-1N, and like 3 lights are competitive vs. clans. Imagine for a second if things like the gargoyle (except with worse weaponry) were the majority of what you had to chose from and thats the current state of IS mechs. IS gets an entire 3 specific variants to choose from to be competitive, whereas at least the clans get to bring all 3 stormcrow/timberwolf/hellbringer variants.


I'll further add that I personally think grinding for and fighting with clan mechs is by far cheaper in cbills and time. If I want to master the aforementioned drop deck of "good" mechs I need to buy 12 variants (and engines, and DHS, and endo) to master them all and end up with spider/stalker/thunderbolt/dragon.

With clans on the other hand it's totally practical to buy 3 stormcrows/timberwolves and be done with it, and drop with 3xstormcrow/+1Timberwolf.

Edited by washout, 25 February 2015 - 04:50 PM.

[Mcgral18]

washout, on 25 February 2015 - 04:32 PM, said:

You keep radically overstating everything IS has and understating the hell out of everything the clans get. That extra heat is offset by additional damage and range of clan weaponry, the burn time is hardly a disadvantage when you can fire out 3-4 50+ damage alphas.

As for the Dragon, how do you only expose an arm when the cockpit is needed to actually see the target? As soon as you are out there people are easily hitting the dragons CT, it's certainly not a bad mech and it's one of the best IS mechs but it sure gets a lot of downsides in exchange, unlike the laservomit builds.

As for Clan ERLL being "worse" than IS ones you are the one that must not have any idea what he is talking about, in one single case the 5SS can exceed the clans in range, barely, while doing 2 less damage per laser. So in reality they are finally, guess what, roughly equal, in one case, on one mech.

And it's your choice to use a gimped brawling tool with extremely short range, but hey at least you get that option of near viability. The only things in IS that would ever think about using small lasers are lights. The clan ERSL and ERSPL have about the same range as the IS medium equivalents. So think about how every other IS pilot feels when dueling you, and you think some of the roughly equal mechs should be nerfed in IS.

Right now the only balance that exists is that the Stalker-4N, Thunderbolt-5SS, Dragon-1N, and like 3 lights are competitive vs. clans. Imagine for a second if things like the gargoyle (except with worse weaponry) were the majority of what you had to chose from and thats the current state of IS mechs. IS gets an entire 3 specific variants to choose from to be competitive, whereas at least the clans get to bring all 3 stormcrow/timberwolf/hellbringer variants.

Are you really that clueless? Half the things you've stated up there as facts are straight up false.

165!=220
200!=270
Without taking any quirks into account. With a TC1 and max modules, you get 185 and 225.


Dragon is decent, but a glass cannon. I never said otherwise. Just saying there's nothing short of a Whale that compares to that Dakka.
Big advantage.


Read my quote again. In fact, I'll post it right here:

Mcgral18, on 25 February 2015 - 03:51 PM, said:

By the way; the 5SS also does ERLLs BETTER than clan mechs, while also being cooler. It seems you really know nothing about quirks.

Hey, you notice that? I didn't say :

washout, on 25 February 2015 - 04:32 PM, said:

As for Clan ERLL being "worse" than IS ones you are the one that must not have any idea what he is talking about, in one single case the 5SS can exceed the clans in range, barely, while doing 2 less damage per laser. So in reality they are finally, guess what, roughly equal, in one case, on one mech.

How I specified that one mech with optimal hardpoints, 12.5% beam reduction, makes it better in just about every way than it's Clam counterpart?

Yeah, that particular chassis. It does it well. I don't have a problem with it, I just hate that boring as hell playstyle. Clam or IS.


Yes, I prefer fun mechs rather than blast furnaces. It will destroy most things in that niche, but it's not for CW.


As for the 4N, which has LLs that are cooler than ERMLs, by the way, I haven't actually faced a firing line of them. All I know is they hurt. That's fine.


Really? Only those mechs? Clams have the Loki, Timby and Crow. Vulture has a niche, Mist Lynx lets you take 3 heavies.


IS has FS9, Jenner, Spider(ECM), Raven (ERLL trolling, ECM), BJ(apparently some don't like it), SHD, Griffin, Wolverine(almost a Dragon in Dakka/LAZORS), Thunderbolts, Stalkers, Banshees, Crabs.



That certainly seems like more diversity. You even have a couple variants of the above. You can make a choice between good robots.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mordin Ashe, on 25 February 2015 - 12:40 PM, said:

Too many IS Mechs are seriously OP now. PGI has to wait until Clan players start playing IS Mechs - then their stats will look a lot different

I think you are kidding yourself. Timber Wolf is still amazing. Stormcrow is spectacular, and the Dire Wolf is devastating. Other clan mechs need some help, but you guys are in no position to say that IS Mechs are "seriously OP".

DONTOR, on 25 February 2015 - 02:35 PM, said:

Because boring?

Well, IS mechs are kind of forced into certain loadouts to conform to the quirks, and that works out fine. I suspect that quirks get better when you have a matching set of omnipods, but that doesn't mean you have to conform to stock loadouts necessarily.

I gotta say though, some stock clan loadouts are pretty damn good. The Stormcrow Prime is awesome. I have solo dropped in my alt as a clanner with trial mechs and I got one of the better scores on my team. You would think after being accustomed to all those OP IS mechs I wouldn't know what to do with the under powered clan mechs...

[washout]

Ozealot, on 25 February 2015 - 04:55 PM, said:

Perhaps the quirks should aim to strenghten the advantages of a chassis and not to balance them against every other Mech in the game. Because the latter will never be accomplished. It is as you state, Clan weapons have advantages - as IS weapons have. When you prefer to poke your enemy 'til he's ripe to be smoked in one or two alphas then you should switch sides and use Clan tech. When you prefer to destroy your opponent by selectively pinpointing damage on the weak points at medium range you should stay with IS. When you are trying your luck constantly and are going against stacking odds you should try another game.

Gimped brawlers? On the other side would be gimped Snipers. I don't say that this is fact, imo it depends on the loadout. I'm personally looking forward to the improvement of CUAC velocity over the board as was suggested and acknowledged (kind of) by Russ in the last Town Hall. Perhaps they will finally become a more efficient alternative.

Well, honestly more than anything I want to see them quit buffing anything. I'd like to see some across the board nerfs. TTK is down so low now, in the past if you walked into a firing line even in an atlas you would live through it and be able to fight back, these days if you accidently walk in front of as little as 3 mechs you are probably dead before being able to get off a second alpha.

The primary driver of this lower TTK is the lower tonnage and higher damage per ton of clan weapons, and secondarily quirks allowing for either higher alphas or a lot more indiscriminate fire without shutting down, both of those are bad imo.

[J0anna]

Lets face it, clan mechs will never see quirks like freebirth mechs, the whining on these forums would reach epic proportions. Besides, nothing can save the ice feces, the mist lynx, or the adder, so stop getting your hopes up. I would expect the ice feces to get a 10% reduction in gauss heat and a 2% reduction is gauss cycle time or other such nonsense. Besides your typical freebirth won't stop whining until they make all freebirth mechs have triple armor and a 100% reduction in weapon heat generated, while all clan omnimechs get half armor.

Edited by Moenrg, 25 February 2015 - 05:04 PM.

[Corbenik]

Metus regem, on 25 February 2015 - 03:17 PM, said:

I do, and my TImber Wolf D cries a little in the cornere rocking its self back and forth, looking at all the female Timber Wolves running around...

FYI, Timber Wolves are like deer, the males have racks.

Only the Prime (I) has Handle Bar racks

[RedDevil]

I think he's talking about the LRM "ears" as antler racks.

[washout]

Mcgral18, on 25 February 2015 - 04:47 PM, said:

Really? Only those mechs? Clams have the Loki, Timby and Crow. Vulture has a niche, Mist Lynx lets you take 3 heavies.

IS has FS9, Jenner, Spider(ECM), Raven (ERLL trolling, ECM), BJ(apparently some don't like it), SHD, Griffin, Wolverine(almost a Dragon in Dakka/LAZORS), Thunderbolts, Stalkers, Banshees, Crabs.

That certainly seems like more diversity. You even have a couple variants of the above. You can make a choice between good robots.

The Jenner can't hold a candle to the firestarter, the spider-5d is only good for tonnage or gimmick clan rush strats, ravens the only good ones are the 3L and the Huginn.

Banshee there is only one good robot the 3E is an equal to the Dire, but only with one configuration, but it gimps your drop deck and is only useful if taking two lights, crabs are just bad with huge CT hitboxes and low slung weapons that get easily blocked by bumps in the terrain.

SHD/Griffin/Wolverine are all the same really, the only viable CW builds any of them have is 3 ERLL, the brawlers with a range of 270 or 300 with range mod are just terrible and useless on most maps. And trust me I want them to be better because I love brawling.

But because 3 ERLL is really not enough firepower your are much much better off having 3 heavies and a light in an IS drop deck, I'd get called out pretty hard if I tried to take 3 mediums and a heavy in my IS drop deck.

[Mcgral18]

washout, on 25 February 2015 - 05:50 PM, said:

The Jenner can't hold a candle to the firestarter, the spider-5d is only good for tonnage or gimmick clan rush strats, ravens the only good ones are the 3L and the Huginn.

Banshee there is only one good robot the 3E is an equal to the Dire, but only with one configuration, but it gimps your drop deck and is only useful if taking two lights, crabs are just bad with huge CT hitboxes and low slung weapons that get easily blocked by bumps in the terrain.

SHD/Griffin/Wolverine are all the same really, the only viable CW builds any of them have is 3 ERLL, the brawlers with a range of 270 or 300 with range mod are just terrible and useless on most maps. And trust me I want them to be better because I love brawling.

But because 3 ERLL is really not enough firepower your are much much better off having 3 heavies and a light in an IS drop deck, I'd get called out pretty hard if I tried to take 3 mediums and a heavy in my IS drop deck.

Jenners still rule over any Clam lights, and two good ravens is better than absolutely no good lights. You have 6?

3M is also quite good, with 6 moderately high mounted hardpoints and high engine cap. Stalkers are better for the tonnage, but that doesn't make it a bad mech.

Wolverine dropdecks are nothing to laugh at, with the good laser quirks and half recycle ACs. It's no 67% off the Dragon, but 57% is still quite good.

3 ERLLs on the SHD isn't bad, due to the mounts. 3 LLs on the Wolverine almost turn them into isER LPLs, nearly as efficient as cLPLs with shorter burn times but less damage and less tonnage. Of course, no where near as good mounting and the 18 structure only does so much, even if it is a full 100% structure buff. On Boreal, 3 ERLLs will get you far enough.

[Metus regem]

Corbenik, on 25 February 2015 - 05:12 PM, said:

Only the Prime (I) has Handle Bar racks

I'm talking about missile racks.

[Corbenik]

I know but they all have those racks but the handle bars still stick out :X

[ThrashInc]

I read that more as specific omnipods would get boosts, but maybe I'm wrong.

Trying to force people to use 8/8 omnipods is laughably poor development.