34 replies to this topic

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 February 2015 - 11:17 AM, said:

I honestly have trouble understanding this, man.

I hear things like the T-bolt can't run XLs.....all mine run them fine. Centurions don't XL.... run XLs in every single last one. Now, one of the best hitbox designed Assaults, which has always tanked XLs like a boss, is unsafe to run XLs in?

Ultimately there is no such thing as "safe XL". This is an unavoidable fact.

There is a thing as "XL friendly".


Victor's are certainly XL friendly, but to say there is no risk - no associated cost - is just untrue.

I would go out on a limb and say you are easily experienced enough of a player that you can probably do the estimate in your head on an opponents load out and guess whether or not they have an XL and if you can exploit that.


It's relatively easy to spot, and exploit, on a Victor.


On the other hand, I tend to agree with you for Centurions - comparitively speaking their STs are tiny vs. a Victors.



I would still run Victors with XLs, but there are times that I would know I could have pushed more, or harder and been more aggressive if I had a STD - or times I was killed because I simply lost my ST.





TDR personally, I feel has very very wide STs and does not have massive shoulders to help absorb damage.

I can honestly say that once achieving double basics, it is exceedingly rare for me to be CTd before I completely lose a ST.

All those times would be deaths, isntead of running a STD as I do now and continue to contribute to the match.


Can you do it? Sure.
Is there a risk? Of course.
Are STD engines more survivable? Yes.


It's a choice, and if a mech can run a STD and still have an effective loadout then that's the choice I will make.

If a mech can not have a STD and run an effective loadout, then I will often take the risk.

Metus regem, on 26 February 2015 - 11:27 AM, said:

Bishop, what we see here, is a prime example of a sheepeople, it has become the general concenious of the more tryhards learned people on the board, that IS XL mechs are bad

IS XL mechs are undeniably less survivable than Clan XL mechs & STD engine builds - especially mechs that go beyond 55 tons (because they become progressively larger, and slower).


This is a truth, and it's silly to try and pretend it's not true.


Otherwise, see my reply above.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 26 February 2015 - 01:13 PM.

[Metus regem]

Ultimatum X, on 26 February 2015 - 01:13 PM, said:

IS XL mechs are undeniably less survivable than Clan XL mechs & STD engine builds - especially mechs that go beyond 55 tons (because they become progressively larger, and slower).


This is a truth, and it's silly to try and pretend it's not true.

Never said it wasn't true, only that I got a build on my Wang that I actually enjoy using.. then again, I don't play to win, I play to have fun... I guess that is the differance.

[Pjwned]

Greenjulius, on 26 February 2015 - 09:45 AM, said:

I'm not really sure what the Victor is good at currently. I've had luck with 2xLPL, 1xAC20 + XL350, but its arms are too low, hardpoints too limited, armor just a little too fragile.

I honestly don't see 2x LPL + AC20 as being all that great because if you're getting in range to use the AC20 you should have at least 1-2 other similar range weapons with a better damage:tonnage ratio than LPL; you're also right that the arms are slung rather low so it sucks to have all of your weaponry on the arms. If you want to keep 2x LPL then I might recommend turning the mech into a skirmisher with an AC10 or something.

This is the build I use with my Victor brawler (which has gotten some very nice results) and it hurts quite a bit up close with AC20 + ASRM10, and meanwhile it still has a decent range hitscan weapon (while still being good for brawling) and a very big engine to close that distance for the real hurt.

Quote

It really needs to run fast (for an assault) in order to be effective, but that usually means taking an XL. The side torsos are too big on the Victor to run it safely, but there isn't much choice.

I don't think the side torsos are so big that they're unsafe for XL engines, especially compared to other assaults, and if you have a big engine in there then that means very respectable torso twisting ability.

Edited by Pjwned, 26 February 2015 - 01:44 PM.

[Greenjulius]

From the front, the side torsos are rather large and unsafe. About as XL friendly as a freaking Atlas. I've exploded randomly from a hidden gausswolf too many times to trust them on this big mech. The back however? Almost one giant CT. Not much thought put into the hitboxes. It's only saving grace are the big arms that could help shield the weak ST.

Metus regem, on 26 February 2015 - 11:27 AM, said:

Bishop, what we see here, is a prime example of a sheepeople, it has become the general concenious of the more tryhards learned people on the board, that IS XL mechs are bad, and must be sent to the bin...

-shrug- some people just need to cling to that, or they can go and experiment, might find that the advice from the tryhards learned people on here, may not be right for them.

My point isn't that IS XL engines are bad. They aren't. The simple fact is that some mechs are XL friendly, while others aren't.

My complaint is that the Victor NEEDS an XL, but isn't very friendly to them. My Battlemaster runs them much better, as do my Blackjacks and Cataphracts. And basically any mech under 50 tons.

Before you start with the name calling, please look at the complaint.

Edited by Greenjulius, 26 February 2015 - 01:49 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 February 2015 - 12:14 PM, said:

VTR is 15 tons lighter than the Banshee...or are you talking the TDR now?
And...which mech lacks shoulder pads...I'm so confused, cuz the VTR, BNC and TDR all have pretty decent shoulders.

Thud has 110 ST structure+A, Victor only has 102.

Banshee has the good (best?) shoulder pads, which go pretty high without any weapons mounted in them.


Victor has most of the weapons there, so it's less desirable aside from the Dragon Slayer, or the sacrificial Med Lasers.
Only structure buffs they got were for the legs, 10 each.

[Otto Cannon]

Fixing jumpjets is the first step. Soggy hoverfarts are no good. If poptarting was the problem then they should reduce firing accuracy while jumping in a way that doesn't give anyone the 'but muh motionsickness' excuse.

[Fate 6]

Metus regem, on 26 February 2015 - 11:27 AM, said:

Bishop, what we see here, is a prime example of a sheepeople, it has become the general concenious of the more tryhards learned people on the board, that IS XL mechs are bad, and must be sent to the bin... -shrug- some people just need to cling to that, or they can go and experiment, might find that the advice from the tryhards learned people on here, may not be right for them.

Most XL IS mechs are bad because it reduces your ability to roll damage effectively. Victors are right on the line, but some like Thuderbolts that are massive side torsos should never do it.

[C E Dwyer]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 February 2015 - 11:17 AM, said:

I honestly have trouble understanding this, man.

I hear things like the T-bolt can't run XLs.....all mine run them fine. Centurions don't XL.... run XLs in every single last one. Now, one of the best hitbox designed Assaults, which has always tanked XLs like a boss, is unsafe to run XLs in?

I'm flabbergasted, bro. Some mechs, like the Hunchback, Atlas and Stalker? No, they really can't. Some like the Jagermech and Cataphract and Orion, it's a roll of the dice. But some mechs were born to XL. And the VTR, even with crappy Hover Jets, still XLs like a champ.

I have to say I used to tank very well with XL Victors, but I don't find it happening now, I used to feel disappointed if I scored less than 500 damage, and a couple of kills, now that would be a good match, its not a change of ELO doing this, and I dropped some speed and ammo for a std engine just to stay upright longer.

I do think the Vic need turning and or twist speeds on it increased, to compensate for hover JJ's

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 26 February 2015 - 01:13 PM, said:

Ultimately there is no such thing as "safe XL". This is an unavoidable fact.

There is a thing as "XL friendly".


Victor's are certainly XL friendly, but to say there is no risk - no associated cost - is just untrue.

I would go out on a limb and say you are easily experienced enough of a player that you can probably do the estimate in your head on an opponents load out and guess whether or not they have an XL and if you can exploit that.


It's relatively easy to spot, and exploit, on a Victor.


On the other hand, I tend to agree with you for Centurions - comparitively speaking their STs are tiny vs. a Victors.



I would still run Victors with XLs, but there are times that I would know I could have pushed more, or harder and been more aggressive if I had a STD - or times I was killed because I simply lost my ST.





TDR personally, I feel has very very wide STs and does not have massive shoulders to help absorb damage.

I can honestly say that once achieving double basics, it is exceedingly rare for me to be CTd before I completely lose a ST.

All those times would be deaths, isntead of running a STD as I do now and continue to contribute to the match.


Can you do it? Sure.
Is there a risk? Of course.
Are STD engines more survivable? Yes.


It's a choice, and if a mech can run a STD and still have an effective loadout then that's the choice I will make.

If a mech can not have a STD and run an effective loadout, then I will often take the risk.






IS XL mechs are undeniably less survivable than Clan XL mechs & STD engine builds - especially mechs that go beyond 55 tons (because they become progressively larger, and slower).


This is a truth, and it's silly to try and pretend it's not true.


Otherwise, see my reply above.

I find this a somewhat fallacious line of reasoning, TBH.

Survivability and ability to absorb damage aren't necessarily one and the same. The ability to go faster, and carry more firepower, I find enhances survivability often beyond being slow and rugged, as being about to escape damage and focused fire, or be able to kill my opponent faster, to aid survivability. And in the Victor and Centurion in particular, I find the survivability tradeoff to favor the XL more often than not.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 26 February 2015 - 04:17 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Metus regem, on 26 February 2015 - 01:02 PM, said:

True, and thanks to you, I now have a YEN-LO-WANG that I love, with a 300XL, thanks again for that build you linked to me a while back, but I tweaked it more to my style.

there's a reason I even have a YLW on my Clan acct..... in fact, my only complaint is I can't put it in my CW dropdeck, because in truth, much as I love IS MEdiums, I really don't like any of the Clan ones. Hoping the Shadow Cat fixes that.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 26 February 2015 - 02:04 PM, said:

Thud has 110 ST structure+A, Victor only has 102.

Banshee has the good (best?) shoulder pads, which go pretty high without any weapons mounted in them.


Victor has most of the weapons there, so it's less desirable aside from the Dragon Slayer, or the sacrificial Med Lasers.
Only structure buffs they got were for the legs, 10 each.

Banshee with a big engine is indeed a fine tank, and IMO it's pretty pointless to run a STD in one, as you either move ridiculously slow, or have no firepower. Neither adds to it's "survivability" on jot. The exception being things like AC20s which preclude them. But that's why I find the simple 380xl, 3x LPL+1x AC10 La Malinche so effective. Pretty fast and mobile, tanky and hits decently hard, but can maintain fire for quite some time. Especially now with the new GH changes and quirks.

Cathy, on 26 February 2015 - 02:55 PM, said:

I have to say I used to tank very well with XL Victors, but I don't find it happening now, I used to feel disappointed if I scored less than 500 damage, and a couple of kills, now that would be a good match, its not a change of ELO doing this, and I dropped some speed and ammo for a std engine just to stay upright longer.

I do think the Vic need turning and or twist speeds on it increased, to compensate for hover JJ's

The weak JJs/Aerial mobility are indeed the missing element from the VTR. My experience is simply that now, with that, running an STD compounds it worse, as I now can't jump, and would run slower and hit softer. One reason I seldom use my VTR anymore, as it's a shadow of what it once was as a brawler.

[Metus regem]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 February 2015 - 05:55 PM, said:

there's a reason I even have a YLW on my Clan acct..... in fact, my only complaint is I can't put it in my CW dropdeck, because in truth, much as I love IS MEdiums, I really don't like any of the Clan ones. Hoping the Shadow Cat fixes that.

If the Shadow Cat lives up to my hopes, I'll either run:

Timber Wolf D
Timber Wolf Pryde
Shadow Cat
Shadow Cat Prime


Or

Ebon Jaguar
Ebon Jaguar
Ebon Jaguar
Shadow Cat


Not sure which....

[XX Sulla XX]

A couple of things about Victors and XLs. Being able to run a bigger engine lets your twist faster to not get hit in those side torsos. And in the past with good jump jets you could jump and spread damage that way. I used to make a lot of shots go into my legs and it was like having twice the armor. If you were close range and timed it right nothing they could do about it. Not to mention being able to jump over mechs etc.

Also keep in mind how safe XLs are varies a HUGE amount depending on ELO of the people you are playing. At mid ELO its not bad at all. At a high ELO they are very good at focusing fire as a team. People tend to forget how much it varies across the ELO spectrum.

[Greenjulius]

XX Sulla XX, on 26 February 2015 - 10:25 PM, said:

A couple of things about Victors and XLs. Being able to run a bigger engine lets your twist faster to not get hit in those side torsos. And in the past with good jump jets you could jump and spread damage that way. I used to make a lot of shots go into my legs and it was like having twice the armor. If you were close range and timed it right nothing they could do about it. Not to mention being able to jump over mechs etc.

Also keep in mind how safe XLs are varies a HUGE amount depending on ELO of the people you are playing. At mid ELO its not bad at all. At a high ELO they are very good at focusing fire as a team. People tend to forget how much it varies across the ELO spectrum.

That's my problem. I see lots of very good players, all the time. Most are smart enough to know Victors run XL engines 90% of the time. If I don't spot a whale through ECM fog in time, I usually eat gauss in a side torso quickly. Not to mention I need to act like a medium when I get into a brawl, because everyone in "the know" will target those big side torsos.

That's my problem with Victors. Since JJ nerfs and clans, they are so mediocre. They aren't necessarily bad, but their meta days came and went.

[XX Sulla XX]

Quote

That's my problem. I see lots of very good players, all the time. Most are smart enough to know Victors run XL engines 90% of the time. If I don't spot a whale through ECM fog in time, I usually eat gauss in a side torso quickly. Not to mention I need to act like a medium when I get into a brawl, because everyone in "the know" will target those big side torsos.

That's my problem with Victors. Since JJ nerfs and clans, they are so mediocre. They aren't necessarily bad, but their meta days came and went.

Same for me. But interesting what does help is more speed. But when you get enough speed to spread damage like you want you tend not to have much fire power.