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The Boreal Dilemma


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#1 ShadowedR

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 01:24 PM

Mighty Space Vikings Brothers,

Our clan is at a loss. We rowed out on our long boats to distant shores in an attempt to defend against the clan menace. Our mighty warriors charged their lines on a counter attack many times. Each time we got mowed down.

Our troops fled. Our lands captured. Our women defiled. We are at a loss.

OK, fluff out of the way, we played for about 8hrs straight. counter attacking Boreal Vault every time. Not one single win.

Posted Image

--Engine of hate





So, we got the coordination of the PUGS in the drops. Good use of the VOIP (as good as it gets). We coordinated rushes through both gates, taking the E6 line and trying our luck on the F/G5 line. We've tried standing back and snipe them. Still got pwn'd.

Posted Image

--Clan defense line




I know a lot of people have said that it takes good coordination to win, but on Boreal? We've gotten the entire 12man to work together, as far as PUG possible. This map just feels to favor the defenders by a large margin.

Any advice on tactics, maneuvers, loadouts, mechs. w/e that you've found works ? If all else fails, just post your hate for the Vat Born Scum here.

~Tx

Edited by ShadowedR, 28 February 2015 - 01:36 PM.


#2 Wingbreaker

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 02:26 PM

During a counter attack, if on defense, leverage vertical poke through usage of stalkers and/or thunderbolts.

Lasers are your best friend, as this is a cold map. Your best choice is to draw on clan poke's inability to sustain as long as IS generally can.

if your team is of sufficient skill, PPCs are still a viable tactic as there is little response.

LRMs, if you choose to use them, are viable on this map due to the low-slope of the hills and generally open atmosphere, however you will need an active narcing cadre or quite a few UAVs.

Many teams will push alpha gate and sit on the E6 trench, poking and prodding from either side and slowly overtaking the rough terrain in this area. If you take the high ground and can sufficiently hold it, the position is untennable for the clan, as many current builds rely heavily on torso mounted weapons, and they will be forced back.

On initial contact, another option is to gather heavily in the gap between the gates around the air control tower, using it as an 'ambush' to then push directly in to the clan assault.

If encountering a team that pushes through beta gate, the central hill gap and oil processing tanks on the (from your perspective) left flank are superior positions for poke, and the left side buildings in general are inferior positions for clan to push into due to a lack of high-mounted weapons.

The all important note to keep in mind is that if you have an advantage in skill and have gained a lead in kills, make an immediate attempt to push to the connecting saddle outside of the gates, and hold this position. Group four to six mechs per side, and do not crowd the passage between as this is a necessary maneuvering point.

Edited by Wingbreaker, 28 February 2015 - 02:27 PM.


#3 Furball42

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 02:29 PM

We stormed the beachhead and faced the oncoming barrage. We bravely fought but all for nothing as we bashed ourselves into oblivion.

But alas, we resolved to the 'Mech analog of making smileys in the snow...

Posted Image

But seriously, screw this map :)

#4 Malcolm Vordermark

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 02:47 PM

It is a rough place to counter attack. So far the most successful strategy I've seen is to push into the gates and hold up in one area, D7 being the most common position. From there the defenders will have difficulty trading because unless they come from the sides they end up facing the whole line. If they do start coming from the sides they've likely split their forces.

Probably a good strategy is to eventually use that position to charge up the ramp and take the corner of F7 so you can shoot fresh mechs as they drop into the battle. Eventually, you'll kill off those mechs and be up in pilots.

#5 ShadowedR

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 03:00 PM

View PostWingbreaker, on 28 February 2015 - 02:26 PM, said:

Lasers are your best friend, as this is a cold map. Your best choice is to draw on clan poke's inability to sustain as long as IS generally can.


Ran that.


View PostWingbreaker, on 28 February 2015 - 02:26 PM, said:

if your team is of sufficient skill, PPCs are still a viable tactic as there is little response.


That too.

View PostWingbreaker, on 28 February 2015 - 02:26 PM, said:

Many teams will push alpha gate and sit on the E6 trench, poking and prodding from either side and slowly overtaking the rough terrain in this area. If you take the high ground and can sufficiently hold it, the position is untennable for the clan, as many current builds rely heavily on torso mounted weapons, and they will be forced back.


We tried rushes to E6 but every time we got there, the team was too heavily damaged to maintain the location.
We've entrenched here, moved on and tried to push through. The pushing showed signs of success, but collapsed in the end.
We've even pushed and then retreated.

I suppose attaining numerical superiority first, before pushing E6, will makes this move more viable.

Edited by ShadowedR, 28 February 2015 - 03:18 PM.


#6 ShadowedR

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 03:04 PM

View PostRouken, on 28 February 2015 - 02:47 PM, said:

It is a rough place to counter attack. So far the most successful strategy I've seen is to push into the gates and hold up in one area, D7 being the most common position. From there the defenders will have difficulty trading because unless they come from the sides they end up facing the whole line. If they do start coming from the sides they've likely split their forces.

Probably a good strategy is to eventually use that position to charge up the ramp and take the corner of F7 so you can shoot fresh mechs as they drop into the battle. Eventually, you'll kill off those mechs and be up in pilots.



Thanks. Will give this a bash; See if we can get a good firing arc first and then push out once we've suppressed them

#7 Furball42

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 03:15 PM

View PostRouken, on 28 February 2015 - 02:47 PM, said:

It is a rough place to counter attack. So far the most successful strategy I've seen is to push into the gates and hold up in one area, D7 being the most common position. From there the defenders will have difficulty trading because unless they come from the sides they end up facing the whole line. If they do start coming from the sides they've likely split their forces.

Probably a good strategy is to eventually use that position to charge up the ramp and take the corner of F7 so you can shoot fresh mechs as they drop into the battle. Eventually, you'll kill off those mechs and be up in pilots.


One problem I've seen today (and considering we played this map LOADS today) is the push from the gate to D6 (en route to D7-F7).. A lot of people tend to get stuck in a fight right inside the gate and not move up leaving the guys who did all alone or lance sized.

But yeah, we should try this.

#8 Divine Retribution

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 03:21 PM

View PostShadowedR, on 28 February 2015 - 03:00 PM, said:

We tried rushes to E6 but every time we got there, the team was too heavily damaged to maintain the location.
We've entrenched here, moved on and tried to push through. The pushing showed signs of success, but collapsed in the end.
We've even pushed and then retreated. I suppose attaining numerical superiority first will makes this move more viable.


I noticed a problem is many don't rush as a ball, they go as a conga line. The longer the conga line the more mechs the enemy can focus down as friendly mechs cross the gap.

Also you can often get a kill lead as you rush to E6. There is almost always 1-2 enemy mechs on the center hill behind the tower that think they won't be shot back at. If your group is coordinated you can run left towards E6 while looking and firing to the right, coring out those 1-2 mechs that think they are shooting fish in a barrel. Even better is when another 1-2 enemy mechs follow the group into the trench, again thinking they are getting free shots in. When both happen you can be up 4 kills very quickly.

#9 Sprouticus

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 03:26 PM

Against a solid foe, Boreal will always result in a loss on counterattack.

It is one of the primary reasons defending is almost pointless right now (against a good team).

You best bet is to push up, hope you get lucky or they suck, take the right side, and try to farm the dropships (and hit Omega). Hardly ever works though.

#10 ShadowedR

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 03:56 PM

Have you found that running in as a mass ball of death increases the chance of making a push work by a significant margin?

Conga line is bad, I agree. I'm just not sure if ball will increases the odds enough to make the push work.

Edited by ShadowedR, 28 February 2015 - 03:57 PM.


#11 Davers

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 04:05 PM

View PostShadowedR, on 28 February 2015 - 03:56 PM, said:

Have you found that running in as a mass ball of death increases the chance of making a push work by a significant margin?

Conga line is bad, I agree. I'm just not sure if ball will increases the odds enough to make the push work.

Grouping up for a push is better than a conga line. Then the group MUST move to a good location to fight, and not get stuck in the gate entrance.

#12 ShadowedR

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 04:12 PM

View PostDavers, on 28 February 2015 - 04:05 PM, said:

Grouping up for a push is better than a conga line. Then the group MUST move to a good location to fight, and not get stuck in the gate entrance.


I agreed that grouping is better than line.
My question is, is it good enough

#13 Yokaiko

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 04:13 PM

View PostShadowedR, on 28 February 2015 - 03:00 PM, said:


We tried rushes to E6 but every time we got there, the team was too heavily damaged to maintain the location.
We've entrenched here, moved on and tried to push through. The pushing showed signs of success, but collapsed in the end.


If you are too heavily damaged to reach E6, you are going too slow, or screwing around with the gate WAY too long, you form a ball get the slower mechs at the front and then run and gun your butt into that trench.
The next priority is LOOK UP! There will be UAVs spammed and you get LRM'd into the floor if you don't address that issue quickly.

View PostShadowedR, on 28 February 2015 - 03:00 PM, said:

We've even pushed and then retreated.


Never retreat, seriously you get four mechs. The entire idea (on attack) is attrition, on counter attack ideally you take that trench and park it there, if you are having any luck at it you should be able to have losses just run right back.

Attack is a bit different, but its the "slow push" killing them while you are advancing.

View PostShadowedR, on 28 February 2015 - 03:00 PM, said:

I suppose attaining numerical superiority first, before pushing E6, will makes this move more viable.



Nope, negative, no way.
The ONLY way that works is if you have everyone on the same page AND if they are in builds with adequate range (we are talking 1000m optmals) AND you sufficient ECM coverage.....and the enemy is pretty bad. Remember every clan mech with a er-lmas has +800m effective range, the general populous in a CW game isn't packing that on every mech, hell my current drop deck only has two mechs that can hit to 1000, two are 300 and below. Trying to trade at range is playing into the clan's strength.
1) Almost all clan CW builds are packing er-larges and or LPL/ER-PPC's they have a LOT more range than most IS mechs. Trading at range lets them hunker down and cool off, if you do that you will eat alpha after alpha from all over the map while you only have at most half of your team even able to see the enemy, much less shoot them.

The best way kill clan mechs is to get into their face and make them brawl it out, the IS has a LOT of advantages because clan weapons are seriously hot. Sure the first alpha hurts, but once you get into spitting distance they can't maintain any rate of fire. They cook off.

#14 DaemonWulfe

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 04:39 PM

Death ball. Tune chassis' for speed, 70-80kph average, lots of short cycle beam weapons, ams, some ecm (although if you're aggressive, the missile boats will be the ultimate weakness of a clan team). Trick is to stay tight, move together, and focus fire on legs. You have to be able to swarm the clans, engage them as a murderball and melt the legs out from underneath everything that's moving with a nacho dorito above it's head. As you gain control of their drop area, you keep hammering them as they hit the ground, with objectives as an afterthought to clean up after the defenders are neutralized.

The key is to stick together at all times, and to make sure you're brawling proper. Keep the CT moving left and right when the enemy is shooting at you, especially when moving across open ground or when you have to cross an ambush zone. Speaking of ambushes, you have to remember to GET OFF THE X! The spot designated for the ambush is chosen to be your grave site. The best way to deal with an ambush is to fight directly through it. The enemy is counting on catching you off guard, and hope to take the upper hand before you can organize a counter to the ambush. Move through the point, and immediately go on the counter attack as the enemy floods the ambush zone to pursue. This, in turn, puts them on the X.

Having weapons that can function in long or close range helps, so chassis' that boat LL or ERLL along with some medium ranged energy weapons or SRMs are good. If you move in a loose formation, with the ability to assemble a firing line at any point, you can melt everything that tries to play whack-a-mole in seconds, but you have to be able to immediately slip into go mode afterward to keep the pressure up. Avoid situations where you can't put the majority of your firepower on the heaviest enemy occupied quadrant, with fast movers ready to respond to attacks from the rear while the muscle keeps the line moving forward. This keeps your assaults and heavies from getting left behind. Just remember to use proper weapon discipline. In close range, use torso twisting with pops from auto cannons and SRMs. Spread that damage as much as possible as you get hit, and deliver accurate strikes to legs (smaller mechs) or noses (Timerwolves, Direwolves, Warhawks, etc.) Save the beam weapons for ranged accurate poking so you don't overheat too quick in CQB.

LRMs, leave them at home. You might get lucky a few matches and score a few kills with 2000k+ damage, but your team mates are punished heavily for your success. Having a full deck of direct fire weapons ensures you're able to lay down the firepower at any time, anywhere, whether the enemy team has ECM or not. Technically, the natural progression of warfare for ECM should evolve towards keeping your team invisible as you move, and to help delay or deny locks from streak boaters rather than a deterrent against LRMs. Keep the attack pressing and LRMs are nullified anyway, even clan LRMs. Watch those LRM boaters start to sizzle when they fire off their missiles under 180 meters along with their beam weapons. Having a deck full of AMS also helps to mitigate damage from streaks.

Your goal, is to always establish fire superiority and keep the enemy team thinking on their feet. If they aren't trained to deal with that level of confusion, they will fall in minutes. If they are trained to deal with it, you're gonna have a good fight. As long as you keep that aggression level up, it will at the least be a very close match.



TL;DR
Murderball, Direct fire weapons, aggressive tactics, speed, legs, legs, legs, legs, legs, legs, shoot for the effing legs = win

Edited by DaemonWulfe, 01 March 2015 - 09:16 AM.


#15 Molossian Dog

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 05:00 PM

Short version:

By guts alone.

I am not even kidding.

#16 Yokaiko

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 06:31 PM

Its not impossible.

Posted Image

That was a counterattack by the way, standard E6 grind.

#17 Sandersson Jankins

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 08:36 PM

Hey, great playing with you even though we did have admittedly little success. I still had fun (as always), and the coordination wasn't bad. You were a bunch of cool cats too.

Anyway, I think the problem was multi-faceted:

The easy thing to fix is mech composition and loadout. Seems that we had mixed mechs on the first wave. That first wave is critical to morale and positioning, so when you have even 2 Jenners running around, you're starting to lack tonnage. You guys pick up a king crab or two, supported by thunderbolts and other LAZORS, and I think you'd do better.

The other problem that I saw is the enemy simply outplayed us in individual pilot skill. That problem wasn't gigantic, but it exists. When the enemy is going to be, on average, just better than you....you've got to overcome that by having a pseudo-diety field marshall calling out EVERYTHING perfectly, better mech setups, powerful luck, or all 3 if the Gods are on your side.

I think you had a few new players with you, right? Hell, I'm pretty much a new player even if my damage totals tend to be in the upper 1/3 at least. I've got some things to learn, and I think some of your boys do too.

Luckily, since I'm a jackass 3rd shift pleb, I can drop with you pretty regularly if you'll continue to have me. Big shoutout to Onigami, the man's just top drawer, tbh.

So, get some more meta-ish mechs, our pilots will improve, and we will start netting wins. If all else fails, I'll have a good time playing with you folks. Laughed pretty hard at some guy saying yesterday "well, at least i can be thankful i have a new ass to **** out of now!"

*The "I didn't read the thread at all" edit*

Another thing that could use improvement is focusing fire WHILE advancing. Seems that we'd lose 1-2 mechs and have another few badly damaged before getting into position, with the bad guys taking little damage at all. If we can focus fire everything we have on a single mech, I think we could achieve a kill or two before reaching positions. That's a couple fewer clanners to push and envelop the advancing force if they are unsupported or understrength, and a couple fewer mechs overall to fight.

x2

It has been mentioned that missile boats can be detrimental, which can be true. I drop with Leeroy Mechkins a lot, and he's known for having absolutely horrifying 7k LRM builds. When you have someone like that CONSTANTLY stun-locking a single threat or even 2-3 at a time, you don't need a single LRM boat to add to that. One completely specialized LRM platform seems to be important, but equally as important is no more than that.

Edited by Sandersson Jankins, 28 February 2015 - 09:53 PM.


#18 Furball42

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Posted 28 February 2015 - 11:41 PM

Thanks for the suggestions and strats guys. It is really much appreciated. And a lot has been learned - that is for sure. :)

Getting into position is the main problem it seems (moving as a group, calling out priorities and such). It's also a problem that (mostly with PuGs) that once they get fired upon, they tend to red mist and want to finish the fight and well, then all goes pear shaped and we get decimated. I am guilty of that too sometimes. "Zomg, he's cored! *brain shuts down* hurr durr pew pew".

Posted Image

- cat herding -

As you all pretty much said, getting in close and brawling it out is vital. That TBW, SCR laser vomit is horrendous at range (case in point when they rush the drop zone on Boreal).

I'm in two minds about LRM boats. On one hand I feel that with the amount of ECM the clanners carry that LRM is moot. BUT, that said, last night I did run a few games with my lolcat (x6 LRM5s) aka Leeroy Mechkins style, and it did work. I agree though that the x5 stalker run we saw was a bit much ;)


@Sandersson Jankins - it was a treat, sir. Playing with cool people will even make endless head bashing agreeable :) And you are welcome anytime. *tips hat* Thanks for the assists and advice.

#19 Sandersson Jankins

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 01:00 AM

It was rather funny, when I popped into your TS I had just gotten off the night shift and was, as usual, a bit disoriented and all. Had no idea who anyone was. Boggled my mind for a half-hour, I could NOT place your accents for the damn life of me. I couldn't tell if you were Dutch, Aussie/Kiwi, British, or Canadian. Wasn't even on the proper continent.

Had an absolute blast, it is very nice that MWO isn't so ping-based like counter-strike or other games. It sure as hell helps the community when high ping doesn't seem to be the absolute end of the world.

Anyway, seems like your group tends to run lights frequently; if those eager to do so will learn amazing ECM skills and take proper mechs, skydicks will rain.

...Course, with inexplicably amazing ECM usage, I guess 4 Leeroys would be amazing.

...I don't even want to think about 4 leeroys on a team. That's 7k x 4 missiles. 28,000 missiles.

28,000.

Edited by Sandersson Jankins, 01 March 2015 - 01:04 AM.


#20 Furball42

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Posted 01 March 2015 - 01:03 AM

28 000





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