34 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

ok so we all know about how the Clan LBX should have 2 firing modes,
a burst(shotgun) and a slug(Single Shell) but there have been problems,
1) implementing a duel firing mechanic, allowing for 2 firing types,
2) IS players worried that Clan with PP-FLD AC would be OP,


=So My Solution=
on how to implement all the above,
with in the current CryEngine & fully Balance it,

First LBX ammo, in Lore i believe there are 2 ammo types(to my knowledge)
LB ammo(Shotgun) and Slug ammo(shell), i think having two is a bit unnecessary,
so why not keep it as LBX ammo currently is, making LBX ammo appear as both,
(so for this system Basic LBX is used No Coding Here at all)

now we get on to how to actually have 2 firing modes,
the problem is changing type of projectile the LBX fires,
so since people smarter than me have tried to do that and failed i wont,
in stead ill work on just changing a single variable of the weapon, the spread,

the idea is simulate another firing type by manipulating the LBXs spread,
making it seem like your LBX10 is firing a slug round with out it actually firing one,
(from a coding point this shouldnt be too hard, ranges based on weapons STD range),


Now on to the hard part,
many think it should be a button press, to switch between Burst and Slug,
but many are also worried about Clan having instant PP-FLD AC's, so heres my idea,
make a simple Charge Mechanic, much like the Gauss (i know i know i know!),
give it a 0.5-1 second charge delay, that fires the weapon on full charge,


this would give pilots their on demand(on Click) Burst fire option,
but if they hold the trigger for a very short it fires a Slug giving them that option,
the charge is very short(0.5-1Second) and the LBX will always fire when fully charged,
if the Pilot releases the trigger before the charge is complete it fires Burst,
which is why it has a very short charge, to break up the Click PP-FLD,


=Notes=
with this we can remove C-ACs,
as i dont think Clan really had normal ACs,
IS LBX would act the same way if this was implemented,

=Remember=
for this Idea i looked for a way to make Duel Firing LBX with out much Coding,
to make things easy on the Development team so they could more easily implement this,
should they decide to, and in so try to implement this Idea,
-
This would only Be a place holder to actual LBX Slug rounds,
which Paul has said he wants to work on and towards,


Thoughts, Comments, Concerns?
Thanks

Edit- o forgot,
Edit2- notes
Edit3- Remember

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 14 March 2015 - 02:13 PM.

[Phobic Wraith]

I believe this belongs in feature suggestion...
Good idea though. The LBX needs some sort of fix that goes beyond firing rates.

Edited by Phobic Wraith, 02 March 2015 - 09:26 AM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Phobic Wraith, on 02 March 2015 - 09:22 AM, said:

I believe this belongs in feature suggestion...
Good idea though. The LBX needs some sort of fix that goes beyond firing rates.

probably but i usually post here first before asking to have them moved later,
ya i tried to think of a way to make it work but still make Clan feel Different than IS,
Edit- Spelling

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 02 March 2015 - 09:29 AM.

[DONTOR]

Hmm interesting idea, though I dont think There is a problem coding Slugs at all. That was just an excuse to keep clans from havng a PPFLD AC weapon, until they saw how it all played out on Clans release.

No, the better solution is to just give us both ammo types fired normally, but just like a slug from a shotgun the slugs trajectory drops off quickly, so some serious lobbing of the round would be neccesary for long ranged shots, it would probably be slightly slower than a standard i.s. AC round.

With the trajectory issues it would be quite difficult to combine them with CERPPCs unless at very close ranges so that would be mitgated pretty well IMO.

[kapusta11]

Burst fire + shotgun, what's the problem?

[Funkupotamous]

I really like the versatility of your charge mechanic idea. I think it's worth discussing further at least.

[lsp]

Mechanic*. Implement*.

Edited by lsp, 02 March 2015 - 10:40 AM.

[Andi Nagasia]

DONTOR, on 02 March 2015 - 10:17 AM, said:

Hmm interesting idea, though I dont think There is a problem coding Slugs at all. That was just an excuse to keep clans from havng a PPFLD AC weapon, until they saw how it all played out on Clans release.

No, the better solution is to just give us both ammo types fired normally, but just like a slug from a shotgun the slugs trajectory drops off quickly, so some serious lobbing of the round would be neccesary for long ranged shots, it would probably be slightly slower than a standard i.s. AC round.

With the trajectory issues it would be quite difficult to combine them with CERPPCs unless at very close ranges so that would be mitgated pretty well IMO.

well Paul has said its too much a coding problem,
so until its stated other wise i have to take his word,

Funkupotamous, on 02 March 2015 - 10:37 AM, said:

I really like the versatility of your charge mechanic idea. I think it's worth discussing further at least.

thanks i wanted to keep Clan as feeling Different than IS click point damage, but still have them be useful,

lsp, on 02 March 2015 - 10:39 AM, said:

Mechanic*. Implement*.

Changed TOTALLY didnt notice, thanks Isp,

[Bishop Steiner]

Andi Nagasia, on 02 March 2015 - 09:19 AM, said:

ok so we all know about how the Clan LBX should have 2 firing modes,
a burst(shotgun) and a slug(Single Shell) but there have been problems,
1) implementing a duel firing mechanic, allowing for 2 firing types,
2) IS players worried that Clan with PP-FLD AC would be OP,


=So My Solution=
on how to implement all the above,
with in the current CryEngine & fully Balance it,

First LBX ammo, in Lore i believe there are 2 ammo types(to my knowledge)
LB ammo(Shotgun) and Slug ammo(shell), i think having two is a bit unnecessary,
so why not keep it as LBX ammo currently is, making LBX ammo appear as both,
(so for this system Basic LBX is used No Coding Here at all)

now we get on to how to actually have 2 firing modes,
the problem is changing type of projectile the LBX fires,
so since people smarter than me have tried to do that and failed i wont,
in stead ill work on just changing a single variable of the weapon, the spread,

the idea is simulate another firing type by manipulating the LBXs spread,
making it seem like your LBX10 is firing a slug round with out it actually firing one,
(from a coding point this shouldnt be too hard, ranges based on weapons STD range,)


Now on to the hard part,
many think it should be a button press, to switch between Burst and Slug,
but many are also worried about Clan having instant PP-FLD AC's, so heres my idea,
make a simple Charge Mechanic, much like the Gauss (i know i know i know!),
give it a 0.5-1 second charge delay, that fires the weapon on full charge,


this would give pilots their on demand(on Click) Burst fire option,
but if they hold the trigger for a very short it fires a Slug giving them that option,
the charge is very short(0.5-1Second) and the LBX will always fire when fully charged,
if the Pilot releases the trigger before the charge is complete it fires Burst,
which is why it has a very short charge, to break up the Click PP-FLD,


O almost forgot,
with this we can remove C-ACs,
as i dont think Clan really had normal ACs,


Thoughts, Comments, Concerns?
Thanks

Edit- o forgot,

I had a much more convoluted fix, but this makes a nice compromise, that should be relatively easy to program (in fact, can't think why the cone spread couldn't be made into a straight line, TBH). It's not 10=% perfect if they can't make it "slug-like", but even so, it would be very much more useful and I would pull for this.

[Nathan Bloodguard]

As a quick note: both clan and innersphere lb-x ac's have the same firing options in lore (last I knew) so this wouldn't be just a clan weapon change. Not a bad idea, if they can get the coding for it right.

[Andi Nagasia]

Nathan Bloodguard, on 02 March 2015 - 06:28 PM, said:

As a quick note: both clan and innersphere lb-x ac's have the same firing options in lore (last I knew) so this wouldn't be just a clan weapon change. Not a bad idea, if they can get the coding for it right.

i was unaware of that, cool

[Chagatay]

Well my solution to the problem is much more simple.

Keep everything the same. Reduce the crit chances to normal weapons.
Damage to internals (i.e. when armor is gone) is increased to 2-3x (would need lots of testing to determine balance).

Now the weapon would have a place on brawlers and become increasingly lethal as the match goes on. It would also be a specialist weapon as in the beginning of the match it is worthless. It would also increase the variety of weapons on the field.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

I've been curious to learn what the actual coding issue is.

I know enough that the devs have a heavily modified cryengine, but I remember in Crysis that weapons were able to have attachments that could modify weapons in various ways (I sometimes wonder if this is where quirks and weapon modules impact weapons, for example).

So I wonder if Accessories / Attachments / Ammo could somehow be used to swap or toggle between LB-X slugs and cluster?


Depending on the actual issue, changing the spread could be a reasonable alternative.

[Bishop Steiner]

Nathan Bloodguard, on 02 March 2015 - 06:28 PM, said:

As a quick note: both clan and innersphere lb-x ac's have the same firing options in lore (last I knew) so this wouldn't be just a clan weapon change. Not a bad idea, if they can get the coding for it right.

That's true, but there is a critical difference. Selective ammo IS NOT being considered for the IS version, period, as it would simply obsolete the AC10 (a poor design decision dating back to about 1989).

One reason the C-LBX was being considered for select fire was specifically because of the DoT burst fire mechanic used to minimize the OP nature of UACs. So what you would be trading is a FLD-spread, for a DoT burst. In all honesty, I'll stick with the FLD spread.

Why this appeals is it doesn't ever actually replace the slug except at literally point blank range, but could considerably broaden the range by chocking it tighter.

The issue though is not the damage mechanic itself, but the selective toggle, which they seem unable to work out/decide on. For some reason they apparently cannot tie 2 fire channels to one cooldown bar. Which is what it would need to function, in any alternative/select ammo configuration.

[Nathan Bloodguard]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 March 2015 - 08:23 PM, said:

That's true, but there is a critical difference. Selective ammo IS NOT being considered for the IS version, period, as it would simply obsolete the AC10 (a poor design decision dating back to about 1989).

One reason the C-LBX was being considered for select fire was specifically because of the DoT burst fire mechanic used to minimize the OP nature of UACs. So what you would be trading is a FLD-spread, for a DoT burst. In all honesty, I'll stick with the FLD spread.

Why this appeals is it doesn't ever actually replace the slug except at literally point blank range, but could considerably broaden the range by chocking it tighter.

The issue though is not the damage mechanic itself, but the selective toggle, which they seem unable to work out/decide on. For some reason they apparently cannot tie 2 fire channels to one cooldown bar. Which is what it would need to function, in any alternative/select ammo configuration.

Well then, it looks like this is a great piece of advice

Also agreed on the obsoleting part for the ac10/LB10-X. Why spent an extra ton for nothing?

[Andi Nagasia]

Nathan Bloodguard, on 02 March 2015 - 08:43 PM, said:

Well then, it looks like this is a great piece of advice

Also agreed on the obsoleting part for the ac10/LB10-X. Why spent an extra ton for nothing?

do i think this will replace the AC10 for IS, No, not really even if IS gets this Mechanic with Clan
Why because even though its heavier the normal IS-AC10, the IS-AC10 is Click= instant PP-FLD,
where as with this LBX system, an LBX10 would be Click> Charging Mechanic > Fire in Small Cone,
and even though the spread is small, its enough to land on more than 1section of a mech,
meaning it wont be PP-FLD, and as with IS-ACs greatest advantage is PP-FLD,
i can see people still taking the IS-AC10, though some would go IS-LBX10,

[MikeBend]

I wonder if the firing cone could be coded so, that it narrows gradually from standard to a very narrow, during charging.
For example if the charging takes 0,5s, you can just hold a mouse button pressed for those 0,2s to get 1/3 narrower cone.
What this will do is allow for a much narrower spread, if you didnt wait out for full charge. Just a small thing, but i think it would be nice.

[Drake67]

It would seem to me that having one weapon with two typs of ammo that show up as two different firing groups would be the easiest way to do this, would work for MML'S too.

[Andi Nagasia]

Drake67, on 04 March 2015 - 08:07 AM, said:

It would seem to me that having one weapon with two typs of ammo that show up as two different firing groups would be the easiest way to do this, would work for MML'S too.

well though that seems easy it would actually be more coding intensive,
my idea was to make LBXs duel Fire mode Possible without much coding,
as the only thing that would change is the Angle on the LBXs Cone of Fire,
that way it could be easily implemented and balanced with out much work,

[Bluttrunken]

The Clan LBX is fine as it is... the Clan AC's, on the other hand, are terrible.