44 replies to this topic

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Well, weather it was their plan all along or not.
Mantle is where it is, but is no longer required.

http://www.anandtech...dx12-and-glnext

[Kuritaclan]

you can read it that way - other interpretation is they wanna feature mantle to gameworks counter.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Kuritaclan, on 03 March 2015 - 01:53 PM, said:

you can read it that way - other interpretation is they wanna feature mantle to gameworks counter.

I read it as AMD wanted to push lower level API's to give their cards a boost in performance with the GCN's architecture, and now MS has put it's money into DX 12 to deliver the same feature set and naturally for a far larger consumer base AMD really don't need to be wasting their money.

[Kuritaclan]

I recently read those statements:

Quote

AMD will continue to support our trusted partners that have committed to Mantle in future projects[...]
Mantle must take on new capabilities and evolve beyond mastery of the draw call. It will continue to serve AMD as a graphics innovation platform[...]
As an API born to tackle the big challenges in graphics, much of this evolution is already well under way[...]

and from an insider:

Quote

Watch Stardock/Oxide. They will demo a really cool stuff. I don't know if they use D3D12, or the new Khronos API (which is basically Mantle), or the newest API from AMD, but it will be a very interesting stuff. (link)

They wanted it first way the low lvl api, so their processor will not get fully outclassed by intel cpus - now with XD12 implementing it too, their processor part is ok for the future if games morelikely will need high graphic power.

And in this case they now are up to look for a new way to counter NV with Mantle. That is the guess some hardware mags do here.

Edit: I didn't liked Mantle anyway, since only Mantle supported Games did gain the feature so that a "low" CPU is supported and taken mostly out of the equation. So all other games without it would still have the need for the "higher" cpus. And that was still a problem as long as there was no standard. So Mantle in the first implementation was dead by itself for me. But if Mantle lives beside of DX12 and gives AMD cards features NV may not offer, i guess Mantle has a good future. We will see. Anyways i'm ok with nv cards. Hopefully they learned from the 3,5GB user **** of and the shitstorm. Economically it was ok as an enterprise to do it that way. Since 2016 DX12 will be fully introduced Mantle has however it's place.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 03 March 2015 - 02:17 PM.

[xWiredx]

AMD has stated that Mantle is no longer targeted for widespread adoption (presumably because nobody wants to adopt it, current adopters had AMD invest their time and money in it). They will support it for niche projects that want to use it, but it is obvious uptake is ridiculously low and DX12 will be the next dominant API as it is packaged into Windows. I doubt AMD will take Mantle much farther than it already is in the foreseeable future.

[Kuritaclan]

xWiredx, on 03 March 2015 - 02:12 PM, said:

I doubt AMD will take Mantle much farther than it already is in the foreseeable future.

I think so too. But as they offically stated and i quoted: "It will continue to serve AMD as a graphics innovation platform[...]." - So there is no exclusion of the "targeted widespread adoption". Since gpu market is split between NV, Intel and AMD as long as non of them has a overwhelming market penetration - non solution of any of the manufactures is a "targeted widespread adoption".

[Egomane]

xWiredx, on 03 March 2015 - 02:12 PM, said:

AMD has stated that Mantle is no longer targeted for widespread adoption (presumably because nobody wants to adopt it, current adopters had AMD invest their time and money in it). They will support it for niche projects that want to use it, but it is obvious uptake is ridiculously low and DX12 will be the next dominant API as it is packaged into Windows. I doubt AMD will take Mantle much farther than it already is in the foreseeable future.

There were supposedly over 300 development studios, including some big ones, currently interested or already working on implementing Mantle to their games. I wouldn't say that's nobody.

Mantle would have its place for a while for those who don't want to switch to W10 and DX12. And if W10 turns out to be like I fear it to be, with way to many functions being cloud based and thereby sharing to many informations with MS, I'll definatly be a late adopter. Cortanas voice recognition for example will most likely not be able to learn and adjust to the user in an offline mode, despite this being a common functionality for such software for a long time. Why should I install an OS, where most new functions will be disabled by me for privacy reasons, when the old one is still working fine?

But I digress ...

AMD achieved a lot with mantle. They made Microsoft and the Khronos group think and readjust their development for their graphical interface software. I know that MS claim to be working on DX12 for four years now, but only when AMD presented what could be done with a close to the metal interface, did it become more then just another feature layer, like it was for the last iterations.

AMD always stated that it is their goal to give the gamers the best possible performance with Mantle. Now that both big competitors adjusted to the functionality that Mantle would have brought and MS maybe even going beyond that, with the rumors about multi-GPU support even with completly different GPUs, the need for AMD to go into competition with the others is gone.

Don't forget that AMD is also involved in he DX12 development. We don't know how many of those new ideas are actually coming from them, considering that some of those where also planned for Mantle.

So... while it is not quite dead, it is now burning on lower flame. I still hope to get some profit out of it, before I have to update to a new OS (depending on MS decisions with their new one).

Edited by Egomane, 03 March 2015 - 02:53 PM.

[xWiredx]

From AMD's Robert Hallock:

Quote

Mantle must take on new capabilities and evolve beyond mastery of the draw call. It will continue to serve AMD as a graphics innovation platform available to select partners with custom needs.
The Mantle SDK also remains available to partners who register in this co-development and evaluation program. However, if you are a developer interested in Mantle “1.0” functionality, we suggest that you focus your attention on DirectX® 12 or GLnext.

"Select partners with custom needs" does not sound like 300 game development studios looking to produce major titles to me.

(I edited this post because it put weird color tags halfway through the quote that I copy+pasted)

Edited by xWiredx, 03 March 2015 - 03:59 PM.

[Flapdrol]

With dx12 giving similar results and the win7/8 to 10 migration being free microsoft has made mantle pointless.

[Egomane]

Flapdrol, on 04 March 2015 - 02:41 AM, said:

With dx12 giving similar results and the win7/8 to 10 migration being free microsoft has made mantle pointless.

Like I said! That depends on the Microsoft product, Just because it's free to switch (for one year after release) and comes with DX12, doesn't necessarily make it a good choice.

[darqsyde]

Egomane, on 04 March 2015 - 02:50 AM, said:

Like I said! That depends on the Microsoft product, Just because it's free to switch (for one year after release) and comes with DX12, doesn't necessarily make it a good choice.

Because W10 will be free(for the first year), it will likely have a very rapid and large adoption rate, thereby making it the default OS in a short time. It will be helped among gamers by the use of DX12, which, IIRC, will not be coming to W7 or W8.

I am currently running the TechPreview on my main rig, and have to say it is an easy transition from W7 (so far). It is reasonable to think that W10 will be a "good" product.

W10 will be to W8, as W7 was to Vista.

[Vassago Rain]

Egomane, on 03 March 2015 - 02:53 PM, said:

There were supposedly over 300 development studios, including some big ones, currently interested or already working on implementing Mantle to their games. I wouldn't say that's nobody.

Mantle would have its place for a while for those who don't want to switch to W10 and DX12. And if W10 turns out to be like I fear it to be, with way to many functions being cloud based and thereby sharing to many informations with MS, I'll definatly be a late adopter. Cortanas voice recognition for example will most likely not be able to learn and adjust to the user in an offline mode, despite this being a common functionality for such software for a long time. Why should I install an OS, where most new functions will be disabled by me for privacy reasons, when the old one is still working fine?

But I digress ...

AMD achieved a lot with mantle. They made Microsoft and the Khronos group think and readjust their development for their graphical interface software. I know that MS claim to be working on DX12 for four years now, but only when AMD presented what could be done with a close to the metal interface, did it become more then just another feature layer, like it was for the last iterations.

AMD always stated that it is their goal to give the gamers the best possible performance with Mantle. Now that both big competitors adjusted to the functionality that Mantle would have brought and MS maybe even going beyond that, with the rumors about multi-GPU support even with completly different GPUs, the need for AMD to go into competition with the others is gone.

Don't forget that AMD is also involved in he DX12 development. We don't know how many of those new ideas are actually coming from them, considering that some of those where also planned for Mantle.

So... while it is not quite dead, it is now burning on lower flame. I still hope to get some profit out of it, before I have to update to a new OS (depending on MS decisions with their new one).

Those 300 studios never materialized.

[Egomane]

darqsyde, on 06 March 2015 - 08:31 AM, said:

I am currently running the TechPreview on my main rig, and have to say it is an easy transition from W7 (so far). It is reasonable to think that W10 will be a "good" product.

Are you actually using it as your main OS?
If the answr is "yes"... Did you read the terms of use for thr win10 beta test?
If the answer is again a "yes"... Did you read it carefully?
If the answer is agian a "yes"... You need toask yourself: Did I understand it?

Within the ToU for the Win10 beta is a clause, that allows Microsoft to keylog your activities, including passwords and anything else you might be writing or doing, like personal mails or online banking data.

As for the hype it will recieve, because it's free... Just because most are stupidly accepting it for such a reason or because of a little incentive like DX12, doesn't mean I have to blindly follow them.

It might be comfortable in using and be good performing, but if the downside to it is, that I absolutly have to use the MS cloud servers, I will kindly refuse. My data and my programs belong on my PC where I have the absolute control over them and not into some third parties hand.

I am absolutly baffled that most of mankind is willingly giving their privacy away for some little and meaningless comfort.

[Vassago Rain]

Egomane, on 07 March 2015 - 03:17 PM, said:

Are you actually using it as your main OS?
If the answr is "yes"... Did you read the terms of use for thr win10 beta test?
If the answer is again a "yes"... Did you read it carefully?
If the answer is agian a "yes"... You need toask yourself: Did I understand it?

Within the ToU for the Win10 beta is a clause, that allows Microsoft to keylog your activities, including passwords and anything else you might be writing or doing, like personal mails or online banking data.

As for the hype it will recieve, because it's free... Just because most are stupidly accepting it for such a reason or because of a little incentive like DX12, doesn't mean I have to blindly follow them.

It might be comfortable in using and be good performing, but if the downside to it is, that I absolutly have to use the MS cloud servers, I will kindly refuse. My data and my programs belong on my PC where I have the absolute control over them and not into some third parties hand.

I am absolutly baffled that most of mankind is willingly giving their privacy away for some little and meaningless comfort.

This is my sticking point as well.

If I have to submit to microsoft's will, or be forced to use cloud services, I'm not leaving windows 7.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Egomane, on 07 March 2015 - 03:17 PM, said:

Are you actually using it as your main OS?
If the answr is "yes"... Did you read the terms of use for thr win10 beta test?
If the answer is again a "yes"... Did you read it carefully?
If the answer is agian a "yes"... You need toask yourself: Did I understand it?

Within the ToU for the Win10 beta is a clause, that allows Microsoft to keylog your activities, including passwords and anything else you might be writing or doing, like personal mails or online banking data.

As for the hype it will recieve, because it's free... Just because most are stupidly accepting it for such a reason or because of a little incentive like DX12, doesn't mean I have to blindly follow them.

It might be comfortable in using and be good performing, but if the downside to it is, that I absolutly have to use the MS cloud servers, I will kindly refuse. My data and my programs belong on my PC where I have the absolute control over them and not into some third parties hand.

I am absolutly baffled that most of mankind is willingly giving their privacy away for some little and meaningless comfort.

Which is entirely nothing new in the internet age and nothing, Google, MS, Facebook, Yahoo, Amazon, Apple, Samsung, GCHQ etc etc etc don't already do by one mean or another.
If your (collectively) a privacy smuck your better off out in the middle of no where with no modern technology that connects to the internet.

[Egomane]

DV McKenna, on 08 March 2015 - 12:52 PM, said:

Which is entirely nothing new in the internet age and nothing, Google, MS, Facebook, Yahoo, Amazon, Apple, Samsung, GCHQ etc etc etc don't already do by one mean or another.
If your (collectively) a privacy smuck your better off out in the middle of no where with no modern technology that connects to the internet.

That is effectivly telling everyone to simply give up on privacy and let the companies do as they please. Excuse me if I can not agree to that.

I am not in the middle of nowhere, but right now I still have control over my data. My PC-OS is not contacting anyone without my consent. My office suit has no dependence on cloud functionality. Facebook can not track me, as I block all their scripts. Neither can any advertisment tracker.

My tablet is not telling the whole wide world where I am and I do not own a smartphone.

I do not partipate on any bonus point systems that the various supermarkets offer.

All of these things are completly unneccessary and most only use them because they are bribed by some form of incentive. I am not that weak willed. I can still defend my privacy and I will do so till the very end.

Everyone could and should do it. Simply giving up is sending the wrong message.

But we are getting awefully off-topic here.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Egomane, on 08 March 2015 - 01:14 PM, said:

That is effectivly telling everyone to simply give up on privacy and let the companies do as they please. Excuse me if I can not agree to that.

I am not in the middle of nowhere, but right now I still have control over my data. My PC-OS is not contacting anyone without my consent. My office suit has no dependence on cloud functionality. Facebook can not track me, as I block all their scripts. Neither can any advertisment tracker.

My tablet is not telling the whole wide world where I am and I do not own a smartphone.

I do not partipate on any bonus point systems that the various supermarkets offer.

All of these things are completly unneccessary and most only use them because they are bribed by some form of incentive. I am not that weak willed. I can still defend my privacy and I will do so till the very end.

Everyone could and should do it. Simply giving up is sending the wrong message.

But we are getting awefully off-topic here.

It is simply the price of the age we live in and the technology we use.
Someone somewhere will always use it for personal gain.

You can spend your life trying to fight it, but im 100% certain companies will have your information no matter how careful you have been

[Vassago Rain]

DV McKenna, on 08 March 2015 - 12:52 PM, said:

Which is entirely nothing new in the internet age and nothing, Google, MS, Facebook, Yahoo, Amazon, Apple, Samsung, GCHQ etc etc etc don't already do by one mean or another.
If your (collectively) a privacy smuck your better off out in the middle of no where with no modern technology that connects to the internet.

I'm swedish. We take privacy and the internet very seriously over here. I understand the UK and America has spycameras on every corner to make sure citizens behave, but the rest of the world doesn't embrace such foolishness.

DV McKenna, on 08 March 2015 - 01:21 PM, said:

It is simply the price of the age we live in and the technology we use.
Someone somewhere will always use it for personal gain.

You can spend your life trying to fight it, but im 100% certain companies will have your information no matter how careful you have been

I'm 100% certain that companies don't have my information, and they never will. Until they install cameras on my street corner, that is.

I don't even pay the state mandated TV license fee.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Vassago Rain, on 08 March 2015 - 01:54 PM, said:

I'm swedish. We take privacy and the internet very seriously over here. I understand the UK and America has spycameras on every corner to make sure citizens behave, but the rest of the world doesn't embrace such foolishness.



I'm 100% certain that companies don't have my information, and they never will. Until they install cameras on my street corner, that is.

I don't even pay the state mandated TV license fee.

I would expect such from you, but i don't care how careful you have been, your connected to the internet probably via more than one means.
It is done, it's cute to think your privacy is under your control, but it really isn't and that is the scary aspect.

Interesting article i read today btw

http://www.theguardi...aptop-sim-cards

Two parts that stick out for me

Quote

The first – which came not from Snowden but from[/color]Kaspersky, a computer security firm – showed that for at least 14 years a unit in the NSA had succeeded in infecting the firmware that controls hard disk drives with malicious software that is able to persist even through reformatting of the disks.

Quote

the compromised drives were manufactured by most of the leading companies in the disk-drive business, including Western Digital, Seagate, Toshiba, IBM, Micron and Samsung.

Edited by DV McKenna, 08 March 2015 - 02:04 PM.

[Egomane]

Those examples of hardware hacks are effectivly spying and illegal for any company to perform. They are also old news for me.

So yes, someone might have some data about me, but they for sure don't have all the data they'd like to have. I also live in a country where the companies have to answer me, if I request of them to reveal to me all the data they have about my person. They can not refuse such a request. If they do, or if I suspect that they are not giving me all they've got, I could sue them to hell and back. They also have to tell me to whom they may have given those informations. This is a whole lot of work for them and costs them real money. So if more poeple would make such a request they would soon realize that this is no longer as profitable as they wished it to be and they'd tone their hunger for personal data down to the bare minimum.

There are ways to defend your privacy. If you refuse to use them, because you have already given up, that's your choice, but you are only making it worse for all those of us, who have not done so. Please do not believe that this is some kind of natural law and you have to lay down and accept your fate. You should instead stand up and fight for your rights. Get the guys into power who could make a change or go into politics yourself if you believe you can do better then them. Just giving up is the cowards way out.

And now we are completly off-topic. I just reported my own post.

Edited by Egomane, 08 March 2015 - 03:38 PM.