Jump to content

Would Ai Operated Mechs Make A Difference?


15 replies to this topic

#1 AkoolPopTart

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 171 posts
  • LocationApartment

Posted 05 March 2015 - 06:30 AM

One of my many gripes about this game is that the training/proving grounds don’t have any sort of AI opponents to fight against. Stationary mechs are useful when you’re trying to determine how good your weapons are or how much range you have, but they do next to nothing when it comes to learning how to maneuver in combat. I know that even a quality AI is no match for an actual player in the long run, but I would think that having something that actually moves around and shoots at you would at least help you gain some standard knowledge on how to move in combat that you could then apply in PvP.

Those are just my thoughts though. What do you think?

#2 Banditman

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 2,109 posts
  • LocationThe Templars

Posted 05 March 2015 - 07:05 AM

I think you might be surprised at how useful the training grounds are.

You should not be using TG to determine if you can hit the enemy. You should be using TG to make sure you can hit the specific part of the mech you want. It's not enough to kill the Atlas, can you take out his gun shoulder while moving full speed at obliques? Can you ear the Catapult from 900m away while moving? How quickly can you kill all the opponents on a given map without stopping and without overheating? Can you do all these things without staring down your target?

The trick to using TG properly is knowing what you should be accomplishing.

#3 SnagaDance

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Little Helper
  • Little Helper
  • 1,860 posts
  • LocationThe Netherlands

Posted 05 March 2015 - 07:38 AM

OP, there have been several mishaps where PGI accidentally dropped a whole 12-'man' group of bots in the group queue. As recently as 1 and 2 months ago. So they're actually busy with developing a PvE element. No solid info on when or if this will ever get implemented though. (so far the bots have also performed rather abysmally when deployed).

#4 SethAbercromby

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Urban Commando
  • Urban Commando
  • 1,308 posts
  • LocationNRW, Germany

Posted 05 March 2015 - 08:04 AM

In a shooter game, the difficulty is to make the bot dumb enough to not auto-aim everyone to death with a 1 frame response time. In a strategic game, the difficulty is to make the bot smart enough to not get stuck on a rock. This game is part of the latter unfortunately. Torso-twisting, map navigation, dynamic engagements, build differences...

The computer has to be drilled to comprehend and be ale to respond to build layouts, situations and how to optimize their own play. Just on the level of a stock CN9-D bot vs a CN9-A bot, the computer has to immediatly understand primary threats and how to respond to them. For example how to move for cover when the missile warning comes up, predicting when your enemy will shoot and twisting accordingly.

#5 Nik Reaper

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • Bad Company
  • 1,273 posts

Posted 05 March 2015 - 10:19 AM

View PostSnagaDance, on 05 March 2015 - 07:38 AM, said:

OP, there have been several mishaps where PGI accidentally dropped a whole 12-'man' group of bots in the group queue. As recently as 1 and 2 months ago. So they're actually busy with developing a PvE element. No solid info on when or if this will ever get implemented though. (so far the bots have also performed rather abysmally when deployed).


Hehe , sorry but this was proven to be players trolling , they did say that this year, near the end, will try to create tank, helicopter AI and mby next year a functional mech AI.

Edited by Nik Reaper, 05 March 2015 - 10:19 AM.


#6 LordKnightFandragon

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,239 posts

Posted 05 March 2015 - 10:26 AM

View PostSethAbercromby, on 05 March 2015 - 08:04 AM, said:

In a shooter game, the difficulty is to make the bot dumb enough to not auto-aim everyone to death with a 1 frame response time. In a strategic game, the difficulty is to make the bot smart enough to not get stuck on a rock. This game is part of the latter unfortunately. Torso-twisting, map navigation, dynamic engagements, build differences...

The computer has to be drilled to comprehend and be ale to respond to build layouts, situations and how to optimize their own play. Just on the level of a stock CN9-D bot vs a CN9-A bot, the computer has to immediatly understand primary threats and how to respond to them. For example how to move for cover when the missile warning comes up, predicting when your enemy will shoot and twisting accordingly.



In MWO, if it didnt just auto aim everyone with a 60pt PPFLD like we do, it wouldnt stand a chance. sadly...

#7 RazorbeastFXK3

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 551 posts
  • LocationSyracuse, NY

Posted 05 March 2015 - 10:34 AM

Training Grounds to me was designed to help the player learn about strategic snipe spots or terrain cover/ambush spots as well as learning how to move and shoot your target when you "suddenly see it appear in your sights.

It's helped me with hitting a target with PPC from a distance when I see it for less than 2 seconds. "Move move move.. *blip* enemy sighted FIRE LONG RANGE WEAPON! *hit target* continue moving behind cover to other destination."

Perfect example would be the HPG..*forgets the name of the map that has the Simon Game under the giant satellite dish* where you enter the arena and your enemy is sometimes looking right at your entry point waiting for targets to start popping out.

Sure it's boring to walk up to the targets in the TG and hit them 'til they die but that's not utilizing the TG or training/honing your skills to the full potential.

It would be cool if they implemented the feature Mechwarrior 3 had where you can fight wave after wave of AI controlled 'mechs but until then might as well try dropping in each map with your weapon configs to see how well they handle in hot conditions while moving at full throttle, alpha striking or pushing the limit. That way you'll have a better idea of how well your 'mech's weapon config will hold up in your future battles against other players.

#8 Nik Reaper

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • Bad Company
  • 1,273 posts

Posted 05 March 2015 - 10:40 AM

View PostRazorbeastFXK3, on 05 March 2015 - 10:34 AM, said:


...

It would be cool if they implemented the feature Mechwarrior 3 had where you can fight wave after wave of AI controlled 'mechs but until then might as well try dropping in each map with your weapon configs to see how well they handle in hot conditions while moving at full throttle, alpha striking or pushing the limit. That way you'll have a better idea of how well your 'mech's weapon config will hold up in your future battles against other players.


This would be ideal, if improved, do not forget that in mw3 you could kill any AI mech by just using an ultra 10 and sweeping the legs , so much place for improvements there :) .

#9 Voivode

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Hungry
  • The Hungry
  • 1,465 posts

Posted 05 March 2015 - 11:14 AM

Helicopters should be rather easy to implement, just build some art assets to wrap around the two kinds of existing turrets and build a rudimentary system of "pop and shoot" regions on the map where the helicopter can use terrain to hide themselves. Bam! There's two different kinds of helicopter for you! A twin large laser helo and a rage inducing twin ML + LRM10 helo.

Since helicopters don't have to maneuver over terrain features, the movement is realatively simple to code.

#10 SnagaDance

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Little Helper
  • Little Helper
  • 1,860 posts
  • LocationThe Netherlands

Posted 05 March 2015 - 11:59 AM

View PostNik Reaper, on 05 March 2015 - 10:19 AM, said:


Hehe , sorry but this was proven to be players trolling , they did say that this year, near the end, will try to create tank, helicopter AI and mby next year a functional mech AI.


So why is post #6 in this thread from someone from PGI saying it was them? http://mwomercs.com/...uicide-hackers/

I was really hoping they were developing this on the sidelines. :(

I don't think they should be as advanced as SethAbercromby describes them (did any previous mechwarrior game have AI that good?). But I'd be happy with coming for you without running into walls and attempting to keep you in their torso reticule. They should not be as good as competent human players.

Not that I find a personal need for them mind you, but I think they could really help with the new player experience and they could be an interesting addition to future scenarios, running besides human players as allies even for instance.

#11 Nik Reaper

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • Bad Company
  • 1,273 posts

Posted 05 March 2015 - 12:03 PM

View PostSnagaDance, on 05 March 2015 - 11:59 AM, said:


So why is post #6 in this thread from someone from PGI saying it was them? http://mwomercs.com/...uicide-hackers/

I was really hoping they were developing this on the sidelines. :(

I don't think they should be as advanced as SethAbercromby describes them (did any previous mechwarrior game have AI that good?). But I'd be happy with coming for you without running into walls and attempting to keep you in their torso reticule. They should not be as good as competent human players.

Not that I find a personal need for them mind you, but I think they could really help with the new player experience and they could be an interesting addition to future scenarios, running besides human players as allies even for instance.


You see no need for AI tenks and helicopters to give smaller mechs some extra objectives... it would be a sad day if it is so X) .
( PS. : if you compare tenks of same weight as mechs , if they have a fusion engine they are hands down better, they have a lot more armor on fewer hit locations, but have a lot less internal structure + a low profile and high mounted weapons, on wounder we use tanks today X) ) .

Edited by Nik Reaper, 05 March 2015 - 12:04 PM.


#12 BigBadVlad

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Elite Founder
  • Elite Founder
  • 242 posts

Posted 05 March 2015 - 12:13 PM

Also, isn't AI going to have a noticeable hit to CPU performance? Game is already significantly CPU bound as it is...

#13 Nik Reaper

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • Bad Company
  • 1,273 posts

Posted 05 March 2015 - 12:35 PM

View PostBigBadVlad, on 05 March 2015 - 12:13 PM, said:

Also, isn't AI going to have a noticeable hit to CPU performance? Game is already significantly CPU bound as it is...


Normaly I would say no, as the kind of needed AI is not very advanced so not very taxing, but If it's PGI 1.0 unoptimised version I expect every pathfinding problem, geometry cliping and so on to crush the game, or burn out the cpu with memory leak or toture calculations x) .

#14 Zookeeper Dan

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • Bad Company
  • 487 posts
  • LocationBeer City USA

Posted 05 March 2015 - 01:27 PM

They should put turrets on the map. We already have AI for those. Especially as a newnplayer it's hard to learn to twist and spread damage unless you are actually taking damage. It would also let you practice shooting from partial cover and getting back into cover.

Although the thing that annoys me most about the training grounds is that you can't pull up the map by hitting "B". It would be nice to see where you are when exploring.

#15 LordKnightFandragon

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,239 posts

Posted 05 March 2015 - 02:22 PM

View PostVoivode, on 05 March 2015 - 11:14 AM, said:

Helicopters should be rather easy to implement, just build some art assets to wrap around the two kinds of existing turrets and build a rudimentary system of "pop and shoot" regions on the map where the helicopter can use terrain to hide themselves. Bam! There's two different kinds of helicopter for you! A twin large laser helo and a rage inducing twin ML + LRM10 helo.

Since helicopters don't have to maneuver over terrain features, the movement is realatively simple to code.



Just hope the vehicles in this game have some tankiness to them.

#16 Voivode

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Hungry
  • The Hungry
  • 1,465 posts

Posted 06 March 2015 - 01:48 PM

View PostLordKnightFandragon, on 05 March 2015 - 02:22 PM, said:



Just hope the vehicles in this game have some tankiness to them.


They made the turrets reasonably tough. They aren't like fighting a Contra boss but they don't die from the first thing that shoots them either.





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users