68 replies to this topic

[ROSS-128]

Iskareot, on 11 March 2015 - 10:35 AM, said:

There is a difference between knowing you are going to lose before you start and being a sore loser... you actually would have had a chance to win... to know what it is to lose... but when you see nothing but loss... losing becomes boring.. nothing to look forward to in the end. Like I said.. give the content... (sheep) something at least.. bonus Cbills something...

I always try to fight it out. Those four mechs are going to be locked up until the match ends anyway, and they're currently the only mechs I have that are developed enough to go into a drop deck anyway. Plus, I know I'm capable of pulling enough weight that if I leave, I would REALLY be screwing my team over. I know I carry teams now and then, so quitting would absolutely pull the rug out from under my team and I couldn't stand to be That Guy.

Sure, maybe they're like 70% likely to lose even if I stay. But I don't want to leave and be the guy who made it 100%.

I usually haul in ~150k-200k CBills and ~2k-ish EXP (which gets split into about 500 per mech) on a loss, and 300k-400k plus ~4k EXP on a win (not counting the contract bonus, though that's only really significant for FRR, Kurita, and JF). There are a rare few games where I make less than 100k, but that's when it's a complete roflstomp ending in a spawn-camp.

So if you really never actually earn CBills in CW, that sounds like a problem somewhere between your chair and keyboard. Or, you know, maybe you'd earn more if you stayed and did damage instead of quitting with <100 damage done.

Similarly, if fighting Clans really is 100% hopeless for you, check between your chair and keyboard. Yes, Clans are really strong. Especially when they're spamming Stormcrows and Timberwolves. Yes, the IS has to work much harder for a win than the Clans do and that does need to be fixed. But it's also not so severe as to be hopeless.

Take a real hard look at whether on average you hurt your team or help it. Take a look at your loadouts, read up on how MWO weapons work, and think real hard about whether you can optimize them better. Not going to lie, you're going to need to min-max the hell out of your loadouts if you want to be able to stand up to Clan mechs. Watch what you're doing during fights and tell yourself how you can improve. Are you destroying components, especially legs and side torsos? Are you focusing your damage or spreading it? Are you blocking allies? Do you hit your own team more than the enemy?

Also, it may seem counterintuitive but the best time to turn a corner against Clans is when you just saw a hundred lasers fly out of that corner. Because now they're all on cooldown and probably at 80% of their heat cap. Meaning they can't shoot you.

Oh, and since Marik doesn't have an attack front on Clans, try to avoid queuing into any defense line that doesn't have an attacker already waiting. If the defenders queue first you get Counter-Attack, and Counter-Attack as defense sucks. Because you have to push into a base, through several chokepoints, kill ALL the enemies, AND kill the generator before time runs out. And light rush isn't effective in CA, because killing the generator on its own does nothing. On the flip side, if you do have an attack lane, Counter-Attack is easymode because now the enemy has to deal with that BS, while you sit in the base and wait for them to come to you.

I've won Counter-Attack matches as attacker with just 1 mech left on the entire team, was something like 34-47, because time ran out before they could destroy the generator.

Lastly, pick your queues carefully. There is no MM in CW, it's first come first serve. This means whether you queue with a friendly unit or pugs, the people queueing on the enemy side don't change. So look for units in queue, that way you get to stomp pugs and have close games against units. Never queue with 11 other pugs unless it's Counter-Attack on an attack lane (easymode, as described above), because then you'll have close games against pugs and get stomped by units.

If you see a bar in the "6" column or higher, chances are that's a unit all queueing together. The bigger the unit, the easier the match will be for you.

[Davegt27]

More Clan propaganda

Now they are complaining about not having enough pugs to stomp into the ground

You won didn't you why complain

Its PGI's game why not let them worry about it

Originally the idea was for pugs to help out filling in when teams need 2, 3, or even 4 players

But we see pug 12 man teams against organized 12 man teams

For the most part we complain amongst ourselves but we don't have the political power to change anything so we just suck-it-up

[LiquidLlama]

Shredhead, on 11 March 2015 - 11:14 AM, said:

BTT; I'd just like PGI to make it so trials can not be taken into the dropdeck. We have to keep newbs away from CW, because they only make it a bad experience to others, and first and foremost to themselves.

Do you have any hard evidence to back this assertion up? Personally, I find the lack of communication and teamwork in PUGs to be more of a bad experience than being a "newb" or having Trials in a drop deck.

But hey, maybe that's just me.

[HARDKOR]

Rhent, on 08 March 2015 - 08:08 PM, said:

IF PGI could could code in to allow people to drop into matches already under way, it could help to alleviate some people quitting.

This would be awesome. Lose a guy to DC, five minutes later, four fresh mechs and a derp air delivery come in. I propose the dropship has FNG painted on the side.

[DjPush]

Stop loading your drop decks with Timbers and Crows. You might see players get more interested in finishing matches. If you are in a 12 man and you drop against PUGs. Maybe you could tone down your elitist attitude for them. You can still win, just draw it out a little. Relax and derp around for a match.

[ROSS-128]

DjPush, on 11 March 2015 - 11:44 AM, said:

Stop loading your drop decks with Timbers and Crows. You might see players get more interested in finishing matches. If you are in a 12 man and you drop against PUGs. Maybe you could tone down your elitist attitude for them. You can still win, just draw it out a little. Relax and derp around for a match.

If you're referring to the first post, that was two Clanners who saw an organized IS group and went "Nope, not playing." I don't think the Inner Sphere is bringing Timbers and Crows in their drop decks.

It is kind of funny though considering the advantage Clans have.

[Shredhead]

LiquidLlama, on 11 March 2015 - 11:20 AM, said:

Do you have any hard evidence to back this assertion up? Personally, I find the lack of communication and teamwork in PUGs to be more of a bad experience than being a "newb" or having Trials in a drop deck.

But hey, maybe that's just me.

Hard evidence? You mean like these forums, where there are dozens of threads of how bad CW is for solo players, made by accounts no older than 4 weeks? Or everybody's own experiences with these kinds of players in CW?
Have you tried to connect the two things, the one I mentioned and the one that is your main gripe? See a pattern there?
After all, what can anyone do about that extreme lack of teamplay in pub games? PGI delivered the tools to work around that, but you simply can't force people to use them. The only thing that can be done is to let them collect some experience before they get thrown to the wolves. Once that happens, you can only hope they see the benefits of actually being a wolf and join a group to enhance their gaming experience.

P.S.: Also note that newb =/= noob

[anonymous161]

I dont really know what else to add to this topic, people have lost the original topic point. The diks that left never said that it was because we have crap builds or that people were using trials...was because they were forced to play against a 12 man. There is no way around it besides not playing it. I've pretty much stopped playing cw it's only active at certain times which tells me the player population is probably a lot smaller than people realize.

[LiquidLlama]

Shredhead, on 11 March 2015 - 01:10 PM, said:

Hard evidence? You mean like these forums, where there are dozens of threads of how bad CW is for solo players, made by accounts no older than 4 weeks? Or everybody's own experiences with these kinds of players in CW? Have you tried to connect the two things, the one I mentioned and the one that is your main gripe? See a pattern there?

I'm not trying to be an ass here, but that's all anecdotal. None of those things are necessarily caused by "new" players. For all you or anyone else knows, some of these "new" players may be better team players than established ones, but you guys'll never know, because you don't want to give them a chance to prove it.

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After all, what can anyone do about that extreme lack of teamplay in pub games? PGI delivered the tools to work around that, but you simply can't force people to use them. The only thing that can be done is to let them collect some experience before they get thrown to the wolves. Once that happens, you can only hope they see the benefits of actually being a wolf and join a group to enhance their gaming experience.

You're absolutely right, nobody can force anyone to do anything - which, incidentally, is what you, Krafty, and others are proposing: Forcing a wall between new players and a significant portion of the game. "Letting" someone gain experience before joining CW implies a choice, which is what we have now; "forcing" someone to gain experience means sitting in the public queue, getting **** upon by the matchmaker, and having to slowly grind away space bucks in Trial 'Mechs until we can finally afford ONE mediocre something, rinse, repeat. At least CW provides some sort of variety, which I appreciate; locking off that variety - as small as it may be - will guarantee a quick trip to Boredomville, and then right on to Uninstallopolis.

As far as "lone wolfing" goes, I'm in a small unit with a friend, and he cares nothing for CW... honestly, I can't blame him, what with the prevailing attitudes, but he's also been playing for a lot longer than I have, and what CW is apparently isn't what was supposed to be. Just because I'm not in a large, supersrsbzns MEGAUNIT doesn't mean I'm not a team player - absolutely the opposite - but I guess it doesn't matter since I'm just a bad whose voice has no merit when it comes to these sorts of things.

Quote

P.S.: Also note that newb =/= noob

I'm well aware, but you could have fooled me with some of the comments.

Darth Bane001, on 11 March 2015 - 01:32 PM, said:

I dont really know what else to add to this topic, people have lost the original topic point. The diks that left never said that it was because we have crap builds or that people were using trials...was because they were forced to play against a 12 man. There is no way around it besides not playing it. I've pretty much stopped playing cw it's only active at certain times which tells me the player population is probably a lot smaller than people realize.

You're right, and I apologize for helping to derail the thread. Newbs, noobs, Trials or not, quitting is weak regardless of whether or not you're up against a full 12-man, two 6-mans, or whatever. It might be a "viable tactic," but it's a **** move and does nothing but ruin the game for everyone else.

There should be pretty stiff C-Bill and/or Faction rep (if applicable) penalties for quitting a CW match, probably based on the number of 'Mechs left in the deck. Maybe that's not really feasible, I don't know, but there's got to be some way to punish people for being doucheknuckles.

Edited by LiquidLlama, 11 March 2015 - 01:43 PM.

[Shredhead]

LiquidLlama, on 11 March 2015 - 01:37 PM, said:

I'm not trying to be an ass here, but that's all anecdotal. None of those things are necessarily caused by "new" players. For all you or anyone else knows, some of these "new" players may be better team players than established ones, but you guys'll never know, because you don't want to give them a chance to prove it.

I give everybody the same chance, be it in public or CW. I almost always use the VoIP to coordinate the team, and I'm really never mad at people who try their best and fail. People who deliberately sport an anti-team attitude on the other hand...

Quote

You're absolutely right, nobody can force anyone to do anything - which, incidentally, is what you, Krafty, and others are proposing: Forcing a wall between new players and a significant portion of the game.

I don't see the problem here? TESO needs you to reach level 10 before you can participate in PvP wars, single player games let you proceed through some beginner stages first before you can take on the next levels, Diablo lets you complete the game on lower difficulties before you are allowed to take on the game in Inferno etc., most open world games will let you roam freely over the map, but will punish you accordingly with enemies that you can not defeat in the early stages.
That's progress in a game, and there is nothing at all wrong with it!
Of course the whole new player experience has to be improved and streamlined, so the newbs can enjoy their first matches in a newb friendly environment and earn the money for their first 4 mechs in a reasonable amount of time.

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"Letting" someone gain experience before joining CW implies a choice, which is what we have now; "forcing" someone to gain experience means sitting in the public queue, getting **** upon by the matchmaker, and having to slowly grind away space bucks in Trial 'Mechs until we can finally afford ONE mediocre something, rinse, repeat.

See above pls.

Quote

At least CW provides some sort of variety, which I appreciate; locking off that variety - as small as it may be - will guarantee a quick trip to Boredomville, and then right on to Uninstallopolis.

Of course that barrier has to be lifted in a reasonable amount of time. Let's say the goal is to let new players into CW after their first 100 games. That sounds like a big number, but it's really only 10 days of mildly playing, at about 2-3 hours a day. In this time PGI should provide the newbies with around 30 million CBills to buy 4 light to heavy mechs, all fitted out with a custom engine, DHS and custom weapons loadout. From that point onward the new players can dip their toes into CW waters, earning their first additional mech bay and modules.
Of course the (hopefully soon) upcoming tutorials should prepare the new players for what's to come, and how to best take on that task. There also has to be way more in-client information on CW.

Quote

As far as "lone wolfing" goes, I'm in a small unit with a friend, and he cares nothing for CW... honestly, I can't blame him, what with the prevailing attitudes, but he's also been playing for a lot longer than I have, and what CW is apparently isn't what was supposed to be. Just because I'm not in a large, supersrsbzns MEGAUNIT doesn't mean I'm not a team player - absolutely the opposite - but I guess it doesn't matter since I'm just a bad whose voice has no merit when it comes to these sorts of things.

Now now, stop it. It's not necessary to join some big serious units, it's not even necessary to join a unit at all. It's just better overall, as you can get advice from experienced players and avoid many a trap when preparing and fitting mechs and decks. Also it's fun when you play with enjoyable people and have the one or other laugh.
There's also faction owned TS for all the factions by now where you can group up with other players, no unit affiliation needed. There's also open MWO TS servers like Comstar or NGNG where you can group up with random players.

Quote

I'm well aware, but you could have fooled me with some of the comments.

I can't really do anything about your perception here. The problem with written stuff is I can't use modulation to show how I mean it. I also don't really want to write clarifications under every post. Just believe me that I'm neither salty nor condescending.

Quote

You're right, and I apologize for helping to derail the thread. Newbs, noobs, Trials or not, quitting is weak regardless of whether or not you're up against a full 12-man, two 6-mans, or whatever. It might be a "viable tactic," but it's a **** move and does nothing but ruin the game for everyone else.

There should be pretty stiff C-Bill and/or Faction rep (if applicable) penalties for quitting a CW match, probably based on the number of 'Mechs left in the deck. Maybe that's not really feasible, I don't know, but there's got to be some way to punish people for being doucheknuckles.

Quitting a game is against the ToS already, just report the players. 228th for example has the same problem in public queue with a unit called -AI-, they call us cheaters and worse and then commence mass quitting, making it a horrible experience for the other players in their team.

@OP, the derailing isn't that bad, as all those problems tie into each other and lead to what you are concerned about in the thread. Please bear with us.

Edited by Shredhead, 11 March 2015 - 02:42 PM.

[COOL HANDS]

To be honest I don't know what you guys expected. Being an IS player myself I can understand why they react the way they do. Not that I'm advocating quitting matches because I don't quit myself. But when your facing clan mechs which are clearly superior to IS mechs (lets not kid ourselves here the clan mechs are better). Then on top of that you go against 12 man's every cw match day in day out knowing that the chance of you winning that match are slim. It's going to get to a point where it's not going to be fun for that player their not making any c bills, their not progressing their mech of choice because the Xp is becoming less and less each match.

It really is a lose lose situation for IS players if you nerf the clans their will be a rage apocalypse if you bring the IS mechs up to balance with the clans to where they can be competitive it will be rage city on the forums. But lets face it Russ and company are sitting on their hands like they don't see the problem with the balancing. If the IS mechs was really that good you wouldn't be seeing this huge migration over to the clan side. I've heard the arguments from both sides of the fence but as far as the IS players go I understand their frustrations when the game is no longer fun for them and they stop playing as a result.

Edited by xxXKryotech OneXxx, 11 March 2015 - 02:57 PM.

[ThrashInc]

My drop deck for IS is as follows:
Firestarter FS9-S
Wolverine WVR-6R
Thunderbolt TDR-9S
Stalker STK-4N

Clans aren't full of scrub LRM'ers so I don't have radar dep on all of them, but they are moduled for range or cooldown depending on the mech temperature, airstrike, uav, etc.

After 50 or so + matches and winning about 8 times, doing equal or top 3 damage in all of the wins or top 3 damage in all of the losses, we just decided to switch to clans.

Now I basically run a 3 mech drop deck and do even better because I get to kill LRM Stalkers, Hunchbacks, Kintaros, trial mechs, etc. Sometimes you face a 12 man when you hit the defend queue, but in general the games are close in losses or easy wins. Doing top 3 damage actually feels like a contribution.

That's not to say there aren't scrubs, because there are, but you'll never escape the type of people who do 50 damage across 4 mechs.

[Shredhead]

xxXKryotech OneXxx, on 11 March 2015 - 02:52 PM, said:

To be honest I don't know what you guys expected. Being an IS player myself I can understand why they react the way they do. Not that I'm advocating quitting matches because I don't quit myself. But when your facing clan mechs which are clearly superior to IS mechs (lets not kid ourselves here the clan mechs are better). Then on top of that you go against 12 man's every cw match day in day out knowing that the chance of you winning that match are slim. It's going to get to a point where it's not going to be fun for that player their not making any c bills, their not progressing their mech of choice because the Xp is becoming less and less each match.

It really is a lose lose situation for IS players if you nerf the clans their will be a rage apocalypse if you bring the IS mechs up to balance with the clans to where they can be competitive it will be rage city on the forums. But lets face it Russ and company are sitting on their hands like they don't see the problem with the balancing. If the IS mechs was really that good you wouldn't be seeing this huge migration over to the clan side. I've heard the arguments from both sides of the fence but as far as the IS players go I understand their frustrations when the game is no longer fun for them and they stop playing as a result.

Erm, it was clan players that quit here, buddy.

[Mystere]

Mudhutwarrior, on 11 March 2015 - 03:48 AM, said:

Here is the thing, I went into CW and saw what it was all about. It took some heavy investment to build a decent drop deck.

It was a waste of time for a pug. No doubt about it.

Best thing anyone can do is not go there and let the groups have it for themselves. As you can see your clearly not welcome there so why go where your not invited.

I only play solo and enjoy CW quite a lot. And I can't recall being made to feel unwelcome.

Mudhutwarrior, on 11 March 2015 - 03:48 AM, said:

The best part is it will die a slow death because the groups will get bored having to slug it out against other good players and come to solo to farm. They all do right now.

At least if we abandon CW it will die and PGI will invest in Solo more understanding that catering to moms basement boys will get them no where in the long run.

Don't be a selfish ****.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

I enjoy CW solo. And have never done poorly. I do better personally solo than with QQ because I'm not competing for kills. I lose more, but I still make bank and have a good time.

I do feel it needs some adjustments though. Had a guy in my last one solo that claimed to still be wet behind the ears. I thought he was trolling until I saw that he did 1 damage with four clan trials.

There NEEDS to be a certain criterion that needs to be met before being allowed into CW.

[Coolant]

Darth Bane001, on 08 March 2015 - 07:24 PM, said:

Yes I understand playing against 12 mans can pretty much mean you lose automatically it sucks but I dont see that as an excuse to just quit the match before it's really begun.

Had 2 guys tell the team good luck not facing against a 12 team...if you dont want to face them why bother launching a map without one? All you do is hurt our own experience and you will be reported.

If this trend keeps up there will be no point in playing cw. This needs to be addressed in my opinion as fewer and fewer will want to play it thus making it pointless in being in the game.

Some players are flat out bored at the rinse and repeat of the other game modes, so they try a CW match once in a while, just hoping that they get a new map and a defense, and against anything other than a 12-man. It is very disheartening to lose 9/10 games. So I totally get it....I haven't done it, but I would consider just dropping too rather than waste the next 30 minutes...

[RussianWolf]

KraftySOT, on 11 March 2015 - 10:09 AM, said:

Really there should be an achievement like the 1% (Richer than Blake) award that you have to get, before you "graduate" to CW.

I support this. CW would die almost instantly from lack of players.

Now give the attitude a rest before you make me start dropping in CW again and bringing some of my mechs that make the current trials look like gods (yes, I own every crappy mech in this game), just to piss you off.



There is a reason that I haven't seen the newest map. Its CW only and I don't drop in CW despite being in a unit that can and does field 12-mans and has a groups for both CW and Competitions. I own the best mechs in the game and am a decent player. Problem is CW is same old, same old, every match the same Uber mechs and same Uber builds. It gets boring.

Edited by RussianWolf, 12 March 2015 - 07:12 AM.

[RussianWolf]

Coolant, on 11 March 2015 - 04:38 PM, said:

Some players are flat out bored at the rinse and repeat of the other game modes, so they try a CW match once in a while, just hoping that they get a new map and a defense, and against anything other than a 12-man. It is very disheartening to lose 9/10 games. So I totally get it....I haven't done it, but I would consider just dropping too rather than waste the next 30 minutes...

Funny, I find CW to the rinse repeat game mode. Same Mechs, same builds, EVERY match. Solo and Group queues you at least see variety.

[LiquidLlama]

Shredhead, on 11 March 2015 - 02:38 PM, said:

I give everybody the same chance, be it in public or CW. I almost always use the VoIP to coordinate the team, and I'm really never mad at people who try their best and fail. People who deliberately sport an anti-team attitude on the other hand...

Okay, that's fair, and I'll apologize for lumping you in with the rest of the anti-newb crowd.

Quote

Of course the whole new player experience has to be improved and streamlined, so the newbs can enjoy their first matches in a newb friendly environment and earn the money for their first 4 mechs in a reasonable amount of time.

Of course that barrier has to be lifted in a reasonable amount of time. Let's say the goal is to let new players into CW after their first 100 games. That sounds like a big number, but it's really only 10 days of mildly playing, at about 2-3 hours a day. In this time PGI should provide the newbies with around 30 million CBills to buy 4 light to heavy mechs, all fitted out with a custom engine, DHS and custom weapons loadout. From that point onward the new players can dip their toes into CW waters, earning their first additional mech bay and modules.

Of course the (hopefully soon) upcoming tutorials should prepare the new players for what's to come, and how to best take on that task. There also has to be way more in-client information on CW.

Understatements of the year, my friend.

Quote

Now now, stop it. It's not necessary to join some big serious units, it's not even necessary to join a unit at all. It's just better overall, as you can get advice from experienced players and avoid many a trap when preparing and fitting mechs and decks. Also it's fun when you play with enjoyable people and have the one or other laugh.

There's also faction owned TS for all the factions by now where you can group up with other players, no unit affiliation needed. There's also open MWO TS servers like Comstar or NGNG where you can group up with random players.

I had the pleasure of dropping with 8 folks from CI last night, and they gave me the Comstar (I think) TS info. While I wasn't able to speak, I listened, and it was a good match. We won, and I'd like to think I wasn't a liability to the team (5k, 19a, 1100+ damage on mostly 2 'Mechs - the third didn't really count because by that point it was waiting for the last disco to finish dropping, and my fatass was slow).

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I can't really do anything about your perception here. The problem with written stuff is I can't use modulation to show how I mean it. I also don't really want to write clarifications under every post. Just believe me that I'm neither salty nor condescending.

Again, I'll have to apologize - that specific comment wasn't necessarily directed at you, more at the disdain for "newbs" in CW in general.

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Quitting a game is against the ToS already, just report the players. 228th for example has the same problem in public queue with a unit called -AI-, they call us cheaters and worse and then commence mass quitting, making it a horrible experience for the other players in their team.

@OP, the derailing isn't that bad, as all those problems tie into each other and lead to what you are concerned about in the thread. Please bear with us.

I'm sorry to hear that. I dropped with 228 once, and it was a great experience... of course, we won.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Funny thing, the OP says the 2 people quit because they were facing a 12 man, but the screenshots don't show a 12 man. Even funnier, they were Clan dropping against IS, and as Shredhead pointed out, SRoT ain't that great, I've been in 12 man PUGs for CW that beat them and I play IS. If 12 random IS players can take them, surely 12 random Clan players could do the same when there aren't even 12 of them.

And quitting the drop like that, yeah, against the CoC, report em. I've run into a number of people who did that in CW, lots of the -AI- folks as it happens, who constantly whine, complain and call WHOEVER we were dropping against cheaters and hackers. The few times any of them stuck around, they were always sub100 damage for all 4 of their Mechs combined. I can see why they might think others cheat, they couldn't hit the ground if they tripped, stand around in the wide open, and are generally just...well...I've seen players who are blind and 1 handed do better, and we'll leave it at that.

CW is still in alpha testing, Russ can call it beta all he wants, that's pure marketing bs and we all know it. 4v4 will be implemented soon, according to the roadmap, so there's hope that the solo players will be able to actually have some fun in CW, even the newbs. I agree that newbs shouldn't be just dropped into CW as it stands now WITHOUT some major warnings going on, like having to repeatedly click "I agree to do this, I know my ass will get handed to me badly" before they can go into CW, and I personally think you should HAVE to have a complete drop deck that you OWN before you can enter CW, Trial Mechs shouldn't be allowed in a drop deck at all. Like every other MMO out there, and most games period, there's a progression that should be followed that you need to do A and B and so on, you shouldn't be able to just JUMP from A to Z right away.