137 replies to this topic

[YCSLiesmith]

terrycloth, on 23 March 2015 - 02:15 PM, said:

If you're really, really good, I heard LRMs stop being useful except in CW where they're overpowered.

i know i said i was done with this thread but i felt I had to mention that CW is probably the worst game mode for LRMs, you'll pretty much never see them anymore. Even Davion and Marik have stopped using them and they're the two factions that are farthest behind on the meta.

LRMs USED to be incredibly powerful but haven't been since before the creation of CW. Pretty much every CW team has multiple ECM mechs and rolls in carefully organized waves that are pretty much perfectly designed to neutralize LRMs. most of the time I'm playing this game is in that game mode at this point and my unit is mid-upper tier so i know whereof I speak.

[Johnny Two Legs]

YCSLiesmith, on 23 March 2015 - 06:10 PM, said:

Even Davion and Marik have stopped using them and they're the two factions that are farthest behind on the meta.

Oh... Couldn't resist with the CW Marik/Davion vs Kurita forum trolling hey? I thought the Kuritans had slowed down on the forum trolling and left that solely in the CW forums...
There are many aspects of the meta, we're as much in front in some, about the same with others on some, and behind on the remainder.
I'd love for you to show me evidence of this that correlates with your statement. Right now, it smacks of hearsay.

J2L

[YCSLiesmith]

This is a huge tangent but I really didn't mean any offense. It's not a troll to acknowledge that Marik is one of the southern houses with really limited clan access so you're missing out on huge chunks of the game. Often you don't have active fronts because no one is dropping against you. YOu can drop in clan defense but that's usually pug drops which don't teach you much. All of this limits your ability to skill up because ghost drops and pug drops are less efficient than organized unit drops.

This goes double for Davion, who are just bad (they had a massive CW exodus of all their competent players in late january and have never recovered). Meanwhile contrast with the clans, Steiner, or Kurita: always an active front, against a wide range of terrific enemies. Kurita has six fronts. SIX! And we've got units that drop every single night. It's no wonder our players are more skilled.

As for evidence, dude look at the recent marik/kurita war. it was a blowout. That's not a personal insult its just the way things are. We closed the wormhole in 24 hours and took terra and its surroundings. NS, NKVA, and some of the Mercs (228! holy crap they are good!) represent some of the best CW units in the game. Only now that we've wandered off are things cooling down.

Personally if i was in charge of CW I'd change a lot of things, starting with moving the clans around the IS so everyone has a number of fronts and the clans aren't stepping on one another's toes. It would make for a much more interesting game, and it's not like the clans are willingly attacking one another anyhow.

[Kyynele]

terrycloth, on 23 March 2015 - 02:15 PM, said:

If you're really, really good, I heard LRMs stop being useful except in CW where they're overpowered.

While I usually try to remain neutral, and let people play whatever they enjoy or feel useful in, I have to join in and say LRMs are bad for CW.

Besides the abundance of ECM in CW, rendering LRM boats often completely useless, they're really terribad for pushing in close quarters when attacking. Even in defence, even if there's no ECM, every LRM boat in a team means fewer people tanking the damage, which practically means that the rest of their team gets focused more and dies more often.

Thus, the beginning of a match may look even, like the LRM boats would be actually useful, but when you get halfway, let's say around 24-24 in kills, and the LRM boating team has 2-3 permanently dead guys, while the LRM guys themselves haven't died once, things are going to start going downhill fast.

You can get top damages in your team in a CW match, and still be the reason why your team lost.

I've seen this dozens of times, fortunately more often on the opposing side. Sadly, I think they don't even realize why they lost. I'm afraid they just look at the numbers and think their team was bad.

[Johnny Two Legs]

YCSLiesmith, on 23 March 2015 - 07:01 PM, said:

This is a huge tangent but I really didn't mean any offense. It's not a troll to acknowledge that Marik is one of the southern houses with really limited clan access so you're missing out on huge chunks of the game. Often you don't have active fronts because no one is dropping against you. YOu can drop in clan defense but that's usually pug drops which don't teach you much. All of this limits your ability to skill up because ghost drops and pug drops are less efficient than organized unit drops.
...
As for evidence, dude look at the recent marik/kurita war. it was a blowout. That's not a personal insult its just the way things are. We closed the wormhole in 24 hours and took terra and its surroundings. NS, NKVA, and some of the Mercs (228! holy crap they are good!) represent some of the best CW units in the game. Only now that we've wandered off are things cooling down.

Correlation doesn't equal causation.
In regards to the relative stomp that Kurita performed on Marik, that was due to many hotheads in both houses and in our case due to this we bit off more than we could chew.
However the losses weren't due to being behind the 8-ball on the meta. It was due to poor planning on our behalf and lack of numbers. We just didnt have the numbers and weren't fully behind the IS war with Kurita.

Marik is well versed with the current meta. Versing clans more than Marik does simply means you arguably have more practical experience with the clan meta. We gain as much versing IS houses here (attack and defending).

If a stomp is an example of being behind the meta, then Kurita has been behind the meta-ballgame since CW started, looking at your almost continual loss of territories against the clans.

Again, your stomp of us recently does not mean we are behind on the meta. Correlation does not equal causation. In the example here, this should be quite clear to an analytically minded person.

J2L.

Edited by Johnny Two Legs, 24 March 2015 - 05:23 PM.

[MechWarrior3671771]

Ya know, this is the 3rd thread I've seen where some L33T guy rides a legitimate concern to really just talk about how L33T he is.

[sdsnowbum]

Kyynele, on 24 March 2015 - 02:36 AM, said:

While I usually try to remain neutral, and let people play whatever they enjoy or feel useful in, I have to join in and say LRMs are bad for CW.

Actually Mad Dogs and Stormcrows do OK with LRMs. They're both fast and can carry enough lasers to be useful in direct-fire.

Plus IS teams often don't have as many ECM mechs on the field at a given time.

If you're IS then yes LRMs will only hurt your team in CW.

[JC Daxion]

YCSLiesmith, on 23 March 2015 - 06:10 PM, said:

i know i said i was done with this thread but i felt I had to mention that CW is probably the worst game mode for LRMs, you'll pretty much never see them anymore. Even Davion and Marik have stopped using them and they're the two factions that are farthest behind on the meta.

I totally agree with you here.. WHY? because honestly the CW the way it is now really sucks.. You have a weight class, and guess what, it is all about killing. There is zero objectives outside of that, so of course take heavies, take mediums, and kill.

Like i said, I have zero issues with this, but there is a ton of other game play that can be added, or i hope one day, CW makes you need other types of game play. Make some maps that are 5k+ to objectives, and guess what, those 70-80k heavies will no longer be the best ones.. Give some sort of randomness to the drop..

So a long ranged mech, that can snipe at 1500, is suddenly, on a map that is nothing but cover, and made for 100-200m tops. then guess what, the meta on that map will totally change. The biggest issue with CW now, is lack of maps,. just like how the normal drop maps, have really evened out... Some times you got a brawler, and end up on a map with an advantage, others, you end up on alpine, and you are getting Long ranged.. unless of course people understand how to close on those spiners.

Look man, I understand that certain game plays, and especially group play leads it self to certain ways of playing.. But at the same time, there is a whole lotta play where people play not so great mechs, not so great builds, and just out to have fun. Personally, i wish we could have non meta monday, or stock mech tuesday,, or some sort of RP night, that we get to play all those non top mechs, and have fun against other non top mechs.

But till then, at least we have pugs.. and really anything goes, and the guys that play better together are the ones that win. Till that changes, ill keep pluggin away.. and who knows.. maybe a raven 4x qill get quirked to be the goto IS mech one day.. till then, my LRM 15+ 4 ML 2X will be a ton of fun...

[Tesunie]

JC Daxion, on 24 March 2015 - 06:27 PM, said:

... stock mech tuesday...

There is a Stock Mech Monday event that goes on every Monday... (If it interests you that is...)

[Johnny Two Legs]

Fenrisulvyn, on 24 March 2015 - 05:57 PM, said:

Ya know, this is the 3rd thread I've seen where some L33T guy rides a legitimate concern to really just talk about how L33T he is.

Who are you referring to here?

J2L

[Kyynele]

sdsnowbum, on 24 March 2015 - 06:19 PM, said:

Actually Mad Dogs and Stormcrows do OK with LRMs. They're both fast and can carry enough lasers to be useful in direct-fire.

Plus IS teams often don't have as many ECM mechs on the field at a given time.

If you're IS then yes LRMs will only hurt your team in CW.

Seemingly "doing OK" was addressed in my previous post. It always hurts your team. Stormcrows are greatly more useful when you put the weight of those LRMs in other weapon systems or extra cooling. They're a pain to kill, you want them on the frontlines (edit: of course WITH heavier mechs, no stupid rambo stuff), not hiding in the back. Mad Dogs, well, can be useful to clean up light rushes with Streaks. Their arm hardpoints are too low to seriously focus on arm mounted weapons.

Of course, you can still win matches when your team can make up for the disadvantage the LRM boaters have put them in. There is no matchmaker in CW, so the teams may easily be greatly stacked in your favor. But if you want to win in CW - every match, every time - you don't bring LRMs. Sorry.

Please note that there's no elitist agenda here. I'm not telling people not to use LRMs because they'd be an annoying, noobish, low-skill weapon system. Streaks are just as easy to use, probably even easier, since it's much harder to miss with them. However, using those, you are showing yourself and participating in the tanking, taking a bit of focus off your team mates and thus helping them stay alive longer.

Edited by Kyynele, 25 March 2015 - 01:54 AM.

[Tesunie]

Who said anything about boating LRMs? (Each word is a different build I actually use.)

One does not have to boat the LRMs for them t be effective. The designs posted above have all proven (except for the Zeus, which is too new to say yet) themselves on the battlefield. In PUG matches, they are some of my deadliest designs, of particular note the Stalker 3F, which at one point had a 27 K/D rate (and then I started dieing with it. ) These designs have even continued to prove their worth even in CW matches. (Stalker K/D was a fluke for me. I just had about 20 or so games that I was doing amazing with it. I don't expect to see a repeat of those events.)

If people desire me to, I am willing to post my current stats up here. I'm not the greatest player around so don't be expecting some mega stats. But I think I've had decent enough performance with my LRM mechs.

Anyway, I'd like to remind people that this is "So with the Catapult?" thread, not a "So, LRMs?" thread. There are more ways to play a Catapult than with LRMs. Instead of people trying to bash on LRMs, maybe those who disagree with LRMs should just post up other builds for the Catapult that do not involve LRMs at all...

[Kyynele]

Tesunie, on 25 March 2015 - 07:31 AM, said:

Anyway, I'd like to remind people that this is "So with the Catapult?" thread, not a "So, LRMs?" thread.

Says the guy who starts his post by linking 6 non-Catapult LRM builds.

[Tesunie]

Kyynele, on 25 March 2015 - 07:49 AM, said:

Says the guy who starts his post by linking 6 non-Catapult LRM builds.

Only to show that one does not need to boat LRMs for them to work.

I sadly don't own any Catapults, so all I could do is post some theory builds up. But you are probably right. I just wanted to mention that one does not have to boat any one weapon to be effective, depending upon play style and preferences.

(Could I get away with saying those builds are to help aid with build concepts for the Catapult, for inspiration? )

[SethAbercromby]

Tesunie, on 25 March 2015 - 07:31 AM, said:

Anyway, I'd like to remind people that this is "So with the Catapult?" thread, not a "So, LRMs?" thread. There are more ways to play a Catapult than with LRMs. Instead of people trying to bash on LRMs, maybe those who disagree with LRMs should just post up other builds for the Catapult that do not involve LRMs at all...

I agree that a lot of people tend to operate on the mindset of LRM == LRM boat.

Well, I have to admit I find the C1 to be rather unremarke in what else it offers, but something like 2x LRM15 + 2x LPL (maybe replace the medium with a TAG) would give it more close-range options when having to deal with faster 'Mechs or you're running short on ammo.
The opposite way around might work as well with 2x ASRM6 + 2x ERLL + 2x MPL by using the wide jaw angles of the missile boxes for jump-brawling while the ERs help you keep some distance between yourself and the target if brawling is not yet a viable option.

PS:
I might want to add that the jump-brawling has been remarkably successful with my C4, which I reconfigured as such to make full use of the quirks. Completely ammo-dependant, but quite effective when dealing with the aforementioned crowd.

Edited by SethAbercromby, 25 March 2015 - 08:21 AM.

[terrycloth]

Yeah, the C1's a good LRM catapult because it also has 4E slots and since it's quirked for LRM15s you have the tonnage left to use them. I use 4*MPL. That's enough to kill people with after I run out of ammo, or if someone decides to charge the guns... as long as they've been softened up first

But I wouldn't run it with SRMs because a catapult is a horrible brawler. Giant. Center. Torso. All large lasers or something might work.

[HimseIf]

Catapults will brawl ok in new player levels because they don't normally aim for the arms. The A1 cat is a hilariously fun brawler in new player games but loses its arms too quickly among good players.
A C1 cat' can fit a flamer or 2 in the nose, great for blinding people and/or overheating them. Pretty funny.
You can also hide in trees on the swam map or even jump on the enemies back used to be a thing to do, not sure if it still is.. If he is alone he can't find you, then he carries you back to his team and doesn't know why they are shooting at him.

Have fun and good luck.

[mark v92]

running XL255, 2x lrm15+artemis, 7tons of ammo, 4x med pulse, 3x JJ and 3x DHS

could also do 4x med lasers / 3x med lasers +tag and a larger engine