46 replies to this topic

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Without having read every post here in detail, here are some things you might consider:

SHD-2D2 or something like it makes for a decent LRM delivery platform. In general, the 20 and 10 LRM packs are less efficient than the 15 and the 5, with the 5 being by far the best of the bunch. If you get a mech capable of carrying lots of small launchers, LRM5s are the way to go. They don't need Artemis, either, as the natural spread of a 5-pack is very tight already.

The Shadow Hawk generally is a pretty solid chassis, so the other two variants (take your pick based on hardpoints and quirks, to taste) will both likely be good performers for you as well. Plus, the thing is a 55-tonner, which is right at the cusp of being a Heavy. If you don't mind spending real money, the Gray Death is a decent enough Hero, too.

You want to bind your consumables, either by slot or by type (you can pick which in your key bindings area of your settings). I like 2 for artillery/air and 4 for UAV. That makes both convenient to the movement keys while far enough apart one from another that it eliminates the risk of using the wrong one when distracted. To equip them, if that's an issue, once you unlock the thing in the skill tree you then have to go to the mechlab and visit the modules sub-section for the mech you are configuring. There you can apply your consumables, along with a check box for auto-refills. I recommend you be very careful here, as you don't want to mix up the MC and c-bill versions of each consumable (I assume you want to stick with the c-bill ones, which after you buy the GXP upgrades for them will become "Improved" versions of the base consumable, which match the performance of the MC versions in every way).

You earn GXP as a percentage of every XP reward (IIRC it's 15%). Anything that boosts your XP gains will indirectly boost your GXP gains (since they're based on your XP earnings, bumping those up bumps up GXP as well). Alternatively, you can convert. If you choose to do that, however, I suggest waiting for a Double Conversion Weekend, where instead of 25 GXP per 1 MC it goes to 50 GXP per 1 MC. As a rule, too, only ever spend GXP on things that are only available via GXP (modules, etc.). Take the time to use regular XP to do the regular XP unlocks.

[Modo44]

SethAbercromby, on 25 March 2015 - 12:24 PM, said:

And we're back to original problem.

Yeah, Dunnig-Krueger effect demonstrated on a live subject. Watch some league play, see how LRMs do. Even playing solo, they are a luck-based weapon system -- mostly working or not depending on factors completely out of your hand.

[SethAbercromby]

Modo44, on 25 March 2015 - 12:28 PM, said:

Yeah, Dunnig-Krueger effect demonstrated on a live subject. Watch some league play, see how LRMs do. Even playing solo, they are a luck-based weapon system -- mostly working or not depending on factors completely out of your hand.

League play like the MCW? Because I'm seeing a lot of 'Mechs carefree in the open and it's not that hard to outfit a competeitive-style loadout with LRMs.

[YCSLiesmith]

SethAbercromby, on 25 March 2015 - 12:03 PM, said:

And that is a flaw in itself. If nobody uses them, nobody actually takes precautions against them.

aaaaaaa this is crazy talk dude. "They'll never expect my firestarter to attack their assault mechs head on! it will be the ultimate surprise" kind of crazy.

people take precautions against LRMs through normal, good play. if you're already using cover and killing UAVs and rolling with ECM to make it harder for your enemies to call targets, you don't need to take any special precautions in case someone brought an LRM boat. all that is more than enough.

[YCSLiesmith]

SethAbercromby, on 25 March 2015 - 12:55 PM, said:

League play like the MCW? Because I'm seeing a lot of 'Mechs carefree in the open and it's not that hard to outfit a competeitive-style loadout with LRMs.

why in the world do you have 18 back armor and full head armor on this monstrosity?

[Koniving]

Children, children, please. We all know that Competitive teams don't stand a chance against a team that has its edges covered, i.e. Bullet tank + hefty direct fire supported by self-sufficient LRMs.

Modo's case is "Zomg an LRM boat is screwed because direct fire." Seth's case is "Nobody expects the Spanish LRM Boat!"
The fact of the matter, combine the two while tacking in something else to get people's attention (i.e. the bullet tank) and you get something that'll ruin both your days.

[YCSLiesmith]

I can't tell if you're joking or not but the whole 'por que no dos?' thing is wrong. really obviously wrong. no one expects the LRM boat because it's the second least efficient way to do damage to robots in the game.

[Tesunie]

If I was to select a mech chassis for a new player, I'd probably honestly go for the Hunchback. It's been reliable as my own learning piece myself, and it's a decent mech. The Hunchback comes in all the flavors, so no one weapon type gets left out while leveling up the mech. This will afford players to have a good variety of weapon types that they may choose, from missiles to lasers and ballistics. It also is good at teaching trying to protect a section of your mech, as you often want to protect that right hunch.


However, just like other new player help threads as of late, this one seemed to have turned into a "hate LRM" fest again...

[Koniving]

YCSLiesmith, on 25 March 2015 - 04:35 PM, said:

I can't tell if you're joking or not but the whole 'por que no dos?' thing is wrong. really obviously wrong. no one expects the LRM boat because it's the second least efficient way to do damage to robots in the game.

Did you really use Spanish for "Why not both?" (...and is it bad that I read it as Why not both despite it being quite literally 'Why not 2?' and missing the ¿ mark when I only took 1 Spanish course?)

37 12-man matches using a strategy akin to this in 12 mans

34 victories.
That's about a 91 to 92% win rate.
Aggressive frontal attacks with front line tankers, second line direct fire, third line missile boats and fourth line direct fire and anti-lights divided into each lance and then pooled together (or split up for scissor attacks).

[YCSLiesmith]

They're the worst weapon in the game and it's unfair to recommend them to new players.

and yes they're worse than flamers. flamers may not do any damage and it may be impossible to actually overheat an enemy with them because their heat caps at 90% but at least you can put a flamer in your head and breathe fire like a dragon.

[Koniving]

Typically on days when lights are rare to non-existent, one directfire mech will have hard hitting PPFLD such as quad AC/5s, while the other will have more heat efficient DPS oriented fire for enemy suppression.

Keeps the enemy confused, off their toes, interrupts communication, the works.

[YCSLiesmith]

Koniving, on 25 March 2015 - 04:50 PM, said:

Did you really use Spanish for "Why not both?" (...and is it bad that I read it as Why not both despite it being quite literally 'Why not 2?' and missing the ¿ mark when I only took 1 Spanish course?)

oh sorry its a meme, this little girl says 'porque no dos?' in some spanish ad.

and that video is from 2013. no one disputes that, at one point, LRMs were insanely, unreasonably strong. they were like 2x faster than they are today and i think they did more damage. However today they are garbage. And honestly it's better that way.

if you watch that video closely you can see the guy doing actual damage with ac/2s, another impossible feat that has been lost to the mists of time

[Tesunie]

Koniving, don't even bother trying to talk to this guy. All he will do is tell you how great he is, and how bad you are.

YCSLiesmith, on 25 March 2015 - 04:51 PM, said:

They're the worst weapon in the game and it's unfair to recommend them to new players.

and yes they're worse than flamers. flamers may not do any damage and it may be impossible to actually overheat an enemy with them because their heat caps at 90% but at least you can put a flamer in your head and breathe fire like a dragon.

Do you have this response on a copy/paste menu? Because you've said this same exact line before in another thread...

[Koniving]

Nothing is worse than a single Flamer. Two flamers are incredible, but one is just stupid.
(1 flamer will overheat a 27 DHS mech in a little over 1 minute.
2 flamers will Never overheat a mech with 10 SHS -- because when you chain fire them the predecessor to Ghost Heat known as Heat Retention won't affect you).
That's why 2 flamers are incredible, and 1 just sucks.

YCSLiesmith, on 25 March 2015 - 04:51 PM, said:

They're the worst weapon in the game and it's unfair to recommend them to new players.

Then don't recommend them as the main weapon. Recommend them as backup weapons.

Even in a trial mech I can do damn well with LRMs. It isn't a complicated process. It's akin to when players said that Dragons, Catapults and Hunchbacks were horrible mechs, when these 2 Hunchbacks, 1 Catapult and 1 Dragon take out 6 Atlases, 1 Awesome and 1 Raven 3L out in the open, completely encircled by the mechs, and mopped the floor with them.

My point is, your opinion is an opinion. Like all meta opinions sometimes it can be right, sometimes it can be wrong, and everyone has one.

You can voice that you don't recommend LRMs. That's fine. You can say you believe they are terrible. Sure.
And while you do that, I'll sit back in my LRM boat drinking coffee, reading the latest ways PGI is implementing Power Creep and sigh as I come out of another match with a truck full of kills and damage. Occasionally, I'll laugh as someone things that they can out direct fire me after getting within my minimum range where I'll promptly greet them with my mixture of heat efficient lasers.

As Seth might have pointed out, when your ELO gets to a certain point you'll find no one brings AMS, few bring ECM, and everyone laughs at the beginning of when I warn them about LRMs... only to hear complaints about how LRMs are no skill weapons, "aimbot", and "OP." Which they are in a way.

So you tell everyone what you think. You'll make my matches and kills so much easier.

Just don't spread it everywhere, I'd like to see someone smart enough to actually bring a defense so I don't get rusty.

[Koniving]

YCSLiesmith, on 25 March 2015 - 04:55 PM, said:

oh sorry its a meme, this little girl says 'porque no dos?' in some spanish ad.

Well I knew of the meme but more familiar with the English version. Never heard it said in Spanish.

Quote

and that video is from 2013. no one disputes that, at one point, LRMs were insanely, unreasonably strong. they were like 2x faster than they are today and i think they did more damage. However today they are garbage. And honestly it's better that way.

if you watch that video closely you can see the guy doing actual damage with ac/2s, another impossible feat that has been lost to the mists of time

It's me using the AC/5 AC/2 build, which I've rebuilt since the removal of ghost heat on AC/2s. It's actually very effective and ~Much~ colder than back then. Admittedly it doesn't "scare" as easily as it used to because of the reduced screen shake but even a single AC/2 throws off an enemy's aim due to the screen shake including reticule shake (back then it didn't as shown here).

And yes I know it's old. The group doesn't let me record during matches because it brings my frame rate down too much and messes with my aim, reducing my performance. That and something about static in the mic (one of the reasons I haven't been doing vids lately). I used it because it referenced a lance-size version of the strategy.

Everyone focuses the big guy because "easy kill." So no one looks at the Jagers. The Jagers do all the heavy hitting, and the LRMs play support. So when you produce about 3 to 4 big guys, each reinforced by a direct fire mech standing behind and offset to one side or another (so when you do shoot him, he can hide behind the big guy and still pot-shot your friends), with a closing line of LRM support... What exactly can a player do?
Rush out directly into a hailfire of streaks and autocannons?
Hide in a corner with the LRM rain coming down and hefty mechs closing in and killing your friends?
Try to encircle, where the rear line mechs will take care of anything that was fast enough to get away from the direct fire support?
Pot-shot, where this strategy was originally created to fight against -- in which after jumping you know that the moment you jump again you'll be hammered and if you relocate we'll be on you quicker than a triple PPC Awesome takes out Victors?

I'm saying that I've used them competitively. I've also been in a competition where they said "No LRMs allowed here" in the rules. If they are so terrible you should encourage people to bring them so you can win. Instead the opinion is that they "remove skill from the game." Hardly an argument for a terrible weapon.

A similar example to the lance-size version of the strategy can be seen here. Hunchback rather than Jagermech (yes I know also dated) The Atlas is dead so our tanker is gone, but never the less the LRM support is strong and the heavy hitters are hard at work. This isn't a competition example though and I admit that.

Now, are they my preferred weapons? Pfft, no. I bring them when I want an easy mode, a relaxing day. Sit back, fire some missiles, find that perfect moment to clean house with the lasers on my Battlemaster.

Now to build skill with them, can't recommend the ROFLpult enough. Roflwalkers are good too but only in pairs standing about 180 meters apart. A Roflpult can hold its own though with its whopping 126 armor.

A big question is, how are you using LRMs that you think they are so bad... when I am of the opinion that they are obscenely overpowered (in their ridiculous firing rates and unnatural way of moving)?

(My ideal LRMs would be these.) <--Best LRMs to ever see the light of day in MWO. Removed because despite being faster than every LRMApocalypse, despite being deadlier than an AC/20 (record damages 'unintentionally' hitting highs of 25 damage per missile), complete lack of warning given to the targeted player, and Straight Down From the Sky flight path... these were considered to be pathetically weak and unusable by the meta. (That and they didn't home.)

Edited by Koniving, 25 March 2015 - 05:29 PM.

[YCSLiesmith]

Koniving, on 25 March 2015 - 05:03 PM, said:

Nothing is worse than a single Flamer. Two flamers are incredible, but one is just stupid.
(1 flamer will overheat a 27 DHS mech in a little over 1 minute.
2 flamers will Never overheat a mech with 10 SHS -- because when you chain fire them the predecessor to Ghost Heat known as Heat Retention won't affect you).
That's why 2 flamers are incredible, and 1 just sucks.

Then don't recommend them as the main weapon. Recommend them as backup weapons.

You're working with out of date information. no amount of flamers will ever overheat a mech under any circumstances. they capped flamer heat at 90% so you can roast a mech all day and he'll never ever shut down.

And I can't recommend LRMs for backup weapons for two reasons. one, backup weapons are not a concept that works in mechwarrior. Wasting space on weapons to be 'a threat at every range' just means you're worthless at every range. you can use that weight instead for better armor, more heat sinks, a larger engine, or tighter focus on your chosen role. having a spare with a different range, whether it be a single srm, a laser, or what have you, is just a way to be inefficient. rather than putting an LRM on your four large laser stalker, it is better to add more heat sinks or armor (by the way people don't put more than 10 back armor on their mechs anymore. I use six) or add two more large lasers and cycle them 3/3.

The second reason I can't recommend LRMs as backup weapons is because they're garbage.

I really don't feel hostile to you so I hope you don't take this the wrong way but your videos from 2013 are not super relevant to the game as it is currently played. A tremendous amount has changed in the way this game is balanced.

[Tesunie]

YCSLiesmith, on 25 March 2015 - 05:41 PM, said:

You're working with out of date information. no amount of flamers will ever overheat a mech under any circumstances. they capped flamer heat at 90% so you can roast a mech all day and he'll never ever shut down.

You misunderstand, he talked about overheating YOURSELF. With two flamers on chain fire, you never build up the residual heat, so you can actually cool yourself off. Meanwhile you continue to place blinding and heating effects of one flamer held steady on an enemy.

Reading someone's post is helpful.

Edit: Typo and clarification.

Edited by Tesunie, 25 March 2015 - 05:47 PM.

[YCSLiesmith]

in that case I don't understand why flamers could be described as incredible. they do machine gun damage but heat you up. they're awesome but only as a hilarious joke where you put one in your mech's mouth or crotch

[CruiseMissileCowboy]

It would have been better if you went with the FireStarter line of mechs, they are lights, but high fire power, and when maxed, they are the best of the lights in the game.

[SethAbercromby]

YCSLiesmith, on 25 March 2015 - 04:25 PM, said:

why in the world do you have 18 back armor and full head armor on this monstrosity?

Because I tend to skip adjusting back armor values in smurfy. Just take them as total values and adjust as desired.
And for what should I use those few points? Increase armor on the arms nobody ever shoots at?

YCSLiesmith, on 25 March 2015 - 05:51 PM, said:

in that case I don't understand why flamers could be described as incredible. they do machine gun damage but heat you up. they're awesome but only as a hilarious joke where you put one in your mech's mouth or crotch

Because that extra heat on an enemy 'Mech can be very annoying. Once upon a public test, I build the Flamer Flame (not yet proper as I missed the last few opportunities to buy it on sale), which first used all flamers at once to heat the target up and them switched over to chainfire to cool down while brawling with the LB and SRMs. You'd be surprised how inneffective a lot of builds get at 90% heat and no cooling efficiency.

The only problem was that for some reason people really liked shooting at me...

Edited by SethAbercromby, 26 March 2015 - 01:46 AM.