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Error On Cicada Model 3C


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#1 TeteSP

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 10:43 PM

When u put 4 machine guns to this mech,it works and shows as a 2. I noticed this error when i test other mech with 4 machine guns and did double damage in matches and i noticed caused in mech bay i only see 2 cannons of the machine guns,not 4. Please fix this error.

#2 TheCaptainJZ

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 10:51 PM

Cicadas have not yet been updated to show the weapons in the mechlab. The weapons work fine but they don't update the model dynamically.

To test, set each machine gun to a separate firing group and launch in the Testing Grounds. Fire each one individually and watch it fire correctly.

As a side note, try equipping another ballistic instead of a machine gun. Notice the model still shows a machine gun.

#3 Tarogato

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 10:52 PM

View PostTeteSP, on 24 March 2015 - 10:43 PM, said:

When u put 4 machine guns to this mech,it works and shows as a 2. I noticed this error when i test other mech with 4 machine guns and did double damage in matches and i noticed caused in mech bay i only see 2 cannons of the machine guns,not 4. Please fix this error.

See the above reply.

Machine guns do pitiful damage - doubling the number of machine guns you carry will hardly affect your damage scores in matches most of the time.

#4 TeteSP

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 11:02 PM

But i tested other mechs with 4 machine guns and i do double damage,with Cicada i do 50 damage either a Trial Spider 5K do 100. Tested in battlefield vs other players. Maybe Cicada dont have bonus on machine guns????

#5 Tarogato

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 11:20 PM

CDA-3C has a small ballistic cooldown buff, SDR-5K has a small ballistic range buff.

I think you're suffering from a placebo effect. You're using the same energy weapon on both of them?

#6 TeteSP

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 11:35 PM

The Spider was on other account,but i had this Spider with same weaponery as Cicada,medium pulse laser included. With both mech i stay a battlefield same time (approx. of course) and i shoot at 1 enemy mech with both with same duration of shooting. The Spider does 100 damage either Cicada does 50 (approx. too)

#7 Tarogato

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Posted 24 March 2015 - 11:52 PM

View PostTeteSP, on 24 March 2015 - 11:35 PM, said:

The Spider was on other account,but i had this Spider with same weaponery as Cicada,medium pulse laser included. With both mech i stay a battlefield same time (approx. of course) and i shoot at 1 enemy mech with both with same duration of shooting. The Spider does 100 damage either Cicada does 50 (approx. too)

That is very inconclusive information. Since I don't own a 3C anymore, I can't test this...

Go to the training grounds in the Spider. Forest Colony. Line up a shot on the Commando's CT at close range. Take note of the amount of time it takes for you to kill the Commando, machine guns only, no energy weapons. I recommend waiting until 00:20 and then holding the trigger. Then repeat exactly the same procedure with the Cicada.

With four machine guns, the Commando should be destroyed between 00:27 and 00:28.
With only two machine guns, the Commando should be destroyed at 00:35 - exactly double the amount of time (15 seconds from 7.5)

Edited by Tarogato, 24 March 2015 - 11:55 PM.


#8 Kotzi

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 12:21 AM

I think you need more than 2 games to make any statement with certainty referring damageoutput.

#9 SnagaDance

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 12:29 AM

Especially because damage drops when outside of optimum range but within maximum range.

#10 TeteSP

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 04:52 AM

View PostTarogato, on 24 March 2015 - 11:52 PM, said:

That is very inconclusive information. Since I don't own a 3C anymore, I can't test this...

Go to the training grounds in the Spider. Forest Colony. Line up a shot on the Commando's CT at close range. Take note of the amount of time it takes for you to kill the Commando, machine guns only, no energy weapons. I recommend waiting until 00:20 and then holding the trigger. Then repeat exactly the same procedure with the Cicada.

With four machine guns, the Commando should be destroyed between 00:27 and 00:28.
With only two machine guns, the Commando should be destroyed at 00:35 - exactly double the amount of time (15 seconds from 7.5)


Ive tryed what u said and as i suspect with Cicada i need 4/5 more seconds to kill the Comando. I tested both Spider and Cicada on forest colony,with Spider i needed about 6 seconds to kill the Comando on CT with 4 machineguns, with Cicada about 10 /11 seconds with 4 machineguns either. So someone is wrong here,or my Spider was over or my Cicada was bugged.

Edited by TeteSP, 25 March 2015 - 04:54 AM.


#11 Kyynele

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 05:11 AM

View PostTeteSP, on 25 March 2015 - 04:52 AM, said:

Ive tryed what u said and as i suspect with Cicada i need 4/5 more seconds to kill the Comando. I tested both Spider and Cicada on forest colony,with Spider i needed about 6 seconds to kill the Comando on CT with 4 machineguns, with Cicada about 10 /11 seconds with 4 machineguns either. So someone is wrong here,or my Spider was over or my Cicada was bugged.


Ok, I properly tested this for you.

River City, the back center torso of the Awesome. Distance 20-25m. Machine Guns have spread, so they can give non-reliable results at even slightly longer ranges, or against very small targets, so I took those out of the equation by choosing a large target at minimal range. Measured time to kill.

Spider 5K, 4 Machine Guns:
Test 1: 24.51s
Test 2: 24.44s
Test 3: 24.01s

Cicada 3C, 4 Machine Guns:
Test 1: 24.56s
Test 2: 23.97s
Test 3: 23.87s

You're welcome.

edit:
Some possible causes for why you get different results for the Spider and the Cicada:
- Too much range. MG range is short and it spreads.
- Too short range. Being like under 5m from the enemy can screw up weapon convergence(?)
- You don't have all MGs on the Cicada assigned to the weapon group you're using.
- You have chain fire on.
- You don't have 4 MGs on the Cicada to begin with. ;)

I'm sorry, but user error is much more likely than a bug that only affects you and your Cicada.

Edited by Kyynele, 25 March 2015 - 05:28 AM.


#12 TeteSP

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 05:38 AM

Ok i tested again and its true,machine guns have spread, i didnt notice that,so i tested again at lower distante with both mechs and yeah its the same time,8 seconds. Maybe in combat the Cicada have higher spred of fire and this causes lower damage,but i assure that i do more damage with my Spider than my Cicada,every time i do a battle with my Cicada i only do 50 damage either with Spider over 95,maybe Cicada its a bigger target and i die quicker lol so now ,Kyynele,tell me,how u test both mechs, u have the two like me????

Edited by TeteSP, 25 March 2015 - 05:52 AM.


#13 Furyo Chagui

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 05:49 AM

This is muy other account,with the Spider,for show u that im not liying.

Edited by Furyo Chagui, 25 March 2015 - 05:49 AM.


#14 Modo44

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 06:32 AM

This is about range. MGs are notoriously hard to keep within optimal range during fights. To really see what is what, you really should try both mechs in testing grounds, firing with all weapons in green range.

Edited by Modo44, 25 March 2015 - 06:33 AM.


#15 Repasy Cooper

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 06:36 AM

View PostTarogato, on 24 March 2015 - 10:52 PM, said:

See the above reply.

Machine guns do pitiful damage - doubling the number of machine guns you carry will hardly affect your damage scores in matches most of the time.


To be fair though... a machine gun has a 10% chance to do increased damage, as much as 2.16 from one shot. When you take the increased crit chances into account, every 100 rounds of machine gun ammo can deal an average of about 18 dmg. 1 ton of ammo holds 2,000 rounds, thus the potential total damage from a ton of machine gun ammo is 360 dmg. That's more potential damage than a ton of ANY other ammo type.

Now, one machine gun has a rate of fire of 10 shots per second. So this makes the average dps of one machine gun to be 1.8 dmg. This is the bottleneck. The weapon has one of the lowest dps ratings in the game (however, this dps rating is still better than medium-grade and small-grade laser weapons).

But look at the mass of the weapon! 0.5 tons. When you take into account the tonnage of the weapon, it has THE best dps per ton. In fact, it outranks all other weapons by at least double in this regard: 3.6 dps/t for IS MGs and 7.2 dps/t for Clan MGs, with crit chances taken into account.

Having taken into account these facts, doubling the number of machine guns on your mech for a measly ton will have a HUUUUUUUUUUUGE effect on your damage scores.

Weapon range and ammo shortages have to be taken into account of course. But for a lighter weight, high-speed mech, that can rush in close and dart circles around enemy mechs while dodging most fire, machine guns are a no-brainer. Any good pilot who understands the mechanics of all weapons will maximize the number of machine guns on their scout mech when possible. This is why.

#16 YCSLiesmith

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 06:37 AM

View PostTeteSP, on 24 March 2015 - 11:02 PM, said:

But i tested other mechs with 4 machine guns and i do double damage,with Cicada i do 50 damage either a Trial Spider 5K do 100. Tested in battlefield vs other players. Maybe Cicada dont have bonus on machine guns????

your battlefield test is compromised by the fact that you obviously did really badly on your 50 damage game and presumably got killed immediately. test in the actual Testing Grounds where you can strip out variables like getting murdered before you're done.

#17 Kyynele

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 07:10 AM

View PostTeteSP, on 25 March 2015 - 05:38 AM, said:

Kyynele,tell me,how u test both mechs, u have the two like me????


Yeah I have both the mechs.

And for both of them, their primary weapon isn't really the MGs. For the Spider, you're supposed to use the ERLL to snipe people at range, and hopefully only have to use the MGs when the enemies get close, in already bad shape. For the Cicada, it's a similar deal but with ERPPC instead of the ERLL. Played properly, you should be able to get something like 300 damage per match out of each of them without much fuss. And higher if you're really good at them.

#18 Tarogato

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 07:41 AM

View PostYCSLiesmith, on 25 March 2015 - 06:37 AM, said:

your battlefield test is compromised by the fact that you obviously did really badly on your 50 damage game and presumably got killed immediately. test in the actual Testing Grounds where you can strip out variables like getting murdered before you're done.

Exactly.

I should have said that earlier... but yeah. As a new player you simply can't make assumptions on how well weapons work based on live matches with other players. The Cicada is a larger mech and usually quite a bit slower - this is the variable you weren't taking into account. It's easier for the enemy to actually hit you. On the contrary, the Spider is a tiny mech that most people KNOW is not capable of doing very much damage, so they tend to ignore you. Thus you survive longer, hence dealing more damage by the end of the match.

#19 Rogue Jedi

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 08:02 AM

looking over my Mech stats most have an average damage per match of between 150 and 300, but I have done anywhere between 0 and 900 damage, games where I do more than 700 or less than 50 damage are rare but do occasionally happen.

in combat there are all sorts of possible factors to explain the discrepancy, perhaps in the Cicada you attacked Mechs which still had armor while in the Spider you attacked only Mechs with open components, that could easily explain the discrepancy. as has been mentioned the most effective way to use the high speed Mechs with machine guns is to use your speed to dictate engagement range, stay at long range with the PPC or ERLL until the enemy have sections with no armor left then close in (carefully, use cover to close the distance and try not to be seen) then use the machine guns against the open components on the enemy Mechs, but keep moving as you will go down fast if the enemy get time to line up a shot, and if possible avoid allowing multiple Mechs a clear sight line on you, e.g. attack from cover, or keep an enemy Mech between you and the other enemies.

Many times has a lone surviving machine gun light finished off 3+ damaged enemy Mechs after his/her team was taken out, a Machine guns really come into their own in the late stages of a game when every Mech has stripped armor, the challenge is to survive and provide a useful contribution to your team until then (that is what the PPC or lasers are for)

Edited by Rogue Jedi, 25 March 2015 - 09:05 AM.


#20 Koniving

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 10:10 AM

View PostTeteSP, on 24 March 2015 - 10:43 PM, said:

When u put 4 machine guns to this mech,it works and shows as a 2. I noticed this error when i test other mech with 4 machine guns and did double damage in matches and i noticed caused in mech bay i only see 2 cannons of the machine guns,not 4. Please fix this error.


The model has yet to be updated. (Jagermech and Cataphracts were just updated to show "greater visual weapon customization".) It isn't known which chassis is next on the list.

I must also note, the Cicada 3C would fire faster than Spiders due to the faster firing rate. However, Spiders have longer effective range with their MGs. You're also a MUCH bigger target. You're ten tons more, almost 2/3rds taller.

MGs will also do extra damage (and it counts) when you hit something that does not have armor.

4 MGs at the typical rate will deal 3.2 damage per second against armor, against non-armor it ranges from 3.68 damage per second to a maximum but improbable 4.64 damage per second. Note, that is the maximum potential of 4 typical MGs against an unarmored target and again highly improbable (that assumes the 15% damage from crits comes from every single bullet triple critting.)

4 MGs from a Cicada 3C shoot 12.5% faster. So rather than 10 bullets per second it's 11.25 bullets per second. About 3.6 damage per second. Against unarmored targets: Approx 4.14 DPS. Max potential (that requires extremely impossible dice luck) 5.22 damage per second.

But while the Cicada 3C gets 120 meters full damage, 240 zero damage ranges... The Spider gets 174 meters full damage, 348 meters zero damage range.

Can you see where the issue rests?

The Spider 5K's 4 MGs can do 'some' damage out to 347 meters, but a Cicada can only deal 'some' damage to 239 meters. Spider 5K MGs do full damage out to 174 meters. Cicada 3C's MGs only do full damage out to 120 meters.



Last edit: You can find this information here. Combine with the information here (or in your mechbay). Or simply look to the bottom right of your mech's hud. Ranges are indicated before ammo count.

Edited by Koniving, 25 March 2015 - 10:14 AM.






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