62 replies to this topic

[Tarogato]

ManDaisy, on 25 March 2015 - 05:26 PM, said:

No no no taro, its just your fault for lacking battle awareness. Read you allies as well as your enemies. You should be able to detect the fear in your team for better word for it.

no one, on 25 March 2015 - 06:15 PM, said:

You are the problem.

There's a dozen valid places to be on a battlefield. Directly behind your friendlies is not one of them. You can't support them from there, you've got no line of fire if an enemy moves in front of them. If a slower 'Mech is moving out of cover in front of you, you move tangent to their path and THEN forward. If you can't do this then chances are you're at a choke point, and getting behind that 'Mech who turns the corner into something nasty is as good as killing them.

I'll do this to enemies if I'm in a light 'Mech. Out of ammo? I'll jam myself in behind an enemy to hold them in place.

Skarlock, on 25 March 2015 - 06:17 PM, said:

That's bad thinking though. A mech that advances forward won't necessarily know if they are walking into a firing line. Fog of war is a thing, and it means that at any moment that mech may need to either back up very quickly, or die. He may have had every intention of charging forward, only to see tons of guns pointed in his direction, and realized it was suicide to advance. That's not his fault. It is however YOUR fault for blocking him. Never assume someone won't change their mind based off of new information they get when they turn that corner or crest that ridge. In addition, what if they had just blindly charged forward and you followed in behind? Congratulations, you're now both dead having charged single file into a firing line. You'd have been better off if that mech had turned back, and the massive laser vomit and ballistics crashing against him would have been a great warning to not go that way.

If you're in a narrow space, walk BESIDE the mech you're advancing with so you can BOTH back up quickly. If it's too narrow to walk beside it comfortably, then keep your distance and pop-tart over it if you can for fire support. If you can't pop tart and you can't walk beside the mech, don't accompany it. Go around and find a wider angle you can get a similar look at.

Recognizing when an area is too cramped to fit two or three mechs is vitally important. Congested areas where not everyone can immediately fire their guns at the enemy is just begging for an air strike or artillery at best, or a big push from a less congested enemy that can create an easy 3 or 4 on 1 who can shoot and 1 who can't situation at worst.

Let me pose you a situation then... there's a DWF somewhere in front of you at the entrance of Mordor caldera. He's in the lead. He walks up to the entrance at full speed:

If you keep you distance from him and he goes out alone, he dies without support.
If you follow behind him and he goes out, he's not alone and you're more likely to succeed.
If you follow behind him and he gets cold feet, he gets stuck and takes extra fire.

Only one of those three scenarios will definitely result in the death of the DWF.

The best option to follow behind them if it looks like they're going to move out, and keep your distance if it looks like they're only interested in poking and retreating. It doesn't matter what the environment is - it can be a ramp on Canyon Network, exiting tunnel on Forest Colony or the valley between Pride Rock and TinyTown, any of the chokes on Tourmaline (esp stage), many of the passages on Mining Collective, a handful of chokes on Viridian, and a good number of spots on Frozen City. The problem is, a lot of pilots will start charging mindlessly out of cover and then change their mind rather than think it through before acting. If they either followed through or didn't over-commit, it wouldn't be a problem in the first place, because then I as the person behind them are not left with the decision of trying to support them or hanging them out to dry.

Like I said, if you're going to poke, don't move out of cover at full throttle and display too much of your mech to the enemy. This broadcasts to me that you have the intent to fully commit and that I should probably follow and support you.

[Kjudoon]

If you shoot someone in the back, it is your fault. You pulled the trigger. If you run into someone who's backing up, again, it is your fault. They cannot see you and what was clear a second ago is now blocked? How are they to know. The responsibility falls on the person who can see.

This is basic vehicle handling responsibility.

[MechWarrior3671771]

No. I was running a Raven pulse on Caustic, fired on the enemy, and a Timberwolf team-mate walked right in front of me into the 3rd iteration of the pulse. Then he turned and sprayed me with his lasers for "shooting him". How the hell do you walk into an obvious pulse burst and blame the guy that was shooting?

I guess he was too obnoxious to realize it was his own fault.
I blew him off, but I should have artied him and then stripped him when his back was turned.

[Ace Selin]

It can be the guy in front who is at fault. One game we spotted an Assualt/Heavy lance split from the main group. Our team was mostly grouped so i called a hard push into the enemy lance and led in my Stalker, just as i got into a firing line a medium jumped infront of me and after taking heavy fire yelled for me to get out the way as he wanted to backpedal, i too was taking fire and the best thing to do was still to go into them, i was srm, med laser built. The stupid medium died, got me half killed due to stopping me from getting into firing range and nearly cost us an easy push, by thinking he could get a few easy shots and run off. He should not have moved to the front if he didnt want to push hard as stated, we were going to do.

[Tesunie]

Fenrisulvyn, on 25 March 2015 - 07:37 PM, said:

No. I was running a Raven pulse on Caustic, fired on the enemy, and a Timberwolf team-mate walked right in front of me into the 3rd iteration of the pulse. Then he turned and sprayed me with his lasers for "shooting him". How the hell do you walk into an obvious pulse burst and blame the guy that was shooting?

I guess he was too obnoxious to realize it was his own fault.
I blew him off, but I should have artied him and then stripped him when his back was turned.

Ignoring him was your best move.

Thing is, he should have given a warning in chat first. I always give warning if someone seems to shoot me (and I think it's their fault). Sometimes I get an apology. Sometimes I get a reason (like what you mentioned). Usually, I get silence. If I then see them shoot me (or another teammate) and it appears to be intentional... I then open fire with a warning shot (typically not unless I actually see the act).

If you had shot back, it could have been a case of perceived intentional teammate attack, which could then be reported. It also would have made you look bad in that situation, and would make it seem like your first "shot" was intentional. Best to ignore as you did.

[Skarlock]

Tarogato, on 25 March 2015 - 07:25 PM, said:

Let me pose you a situation then... there's a DWF somewhere in front of you at the entrance of Mordor caldera. He's in the lead. He walks up to the entrance at full speed:

First off you are cherry picking a situation where everyone knows you want to rush into the center of the caldera. That's the "standard" tactic on skirmish matches on that map. Not every situation is even close to that situation. That one situation is generally the exception to standard play. Second, what's preventing you from coming up BESIDE him instead of directly behind him? You can't support him if he's blocking your shots. Third, if you are in a faster mech, you should never be behind the dire wolf. You should be ahead of him to the left or right, because he's way slower than you are. Even if you are also a dire wolf pilot or similar speed mech, you still don't ever benefit being directly behind him. You still can't shoot the enemy or support him in any capacity, (except for LRMs which have 1k range and a vertical arc, so why be close to him at all to begin with?).

The mechs in front of you have the responsibility once through the entrance to break right or left to make room for those behind so they CAN be supported. It's not your job to somehow magically teleport through them to get a firing angle. If they stop and block the entrance that is their failure, not yours. The mechs behind have the responsibility to stay far enough away so that even in that situation, if that dire wolf chooses to retreat, he is not blocked. If your dire wolf dies so quickly that he doesn't even have time to break right or left before getting gunned down and you're less than 100 meters away, you have much much bigger problems than proximity to teammates. The enemy has full control of the center and is bristling with accurate firepower, and nothing you could have done would have helped, other than scouting information saying to your team "don't try to take center right now, do something else". Sometimes the point man just dies near instantly. But, by the time the dire wolf arrives, if the entire enemy team had time to set up that much firepower, unchallenged, the center is already lost because the Dire Wolf should be arriving last, not first.

That being said, there are bad players who will clog entrances and not make room for those behind. Go around. If you have no other choice, wait for them to die, then walk over their corpse. Let them know you couldn't get a shot because they didn't make room for you to get an angle. They'll learn pretty quick when they don't get support that it's because they were in the way.

Edited by Skarlock, 25 March 2015 - 07:47 PM.

[CruiseMissileCowboy]

This happens, as the conga line forms, you stop first, the guy behind you stops after you, bumps into you. You start backing up, before he had a chance to stop, you hit him. It's your fault actually. Watch who is behind you - don't get in a conga line.

[MechWarrior3671771]

"If you had shot back, it could have been a case of perceived intentional teammate attack, which could then be reported. It also would have made you look bad in that situation, and would make it seem like your first "shot" was intentional. Best to ignore as you did."

I would agree, but you are missing the part where he turned at me and intentionally washed his LLs all over my torso. All because he walked into my line while my lasers were still firing, and got his ear clipped for like 2 pts damage at most. I'm in a fricken 35 ton mech. That kind of stunt just because you *think* the other guy was careless is uncalled for.

If he does it again I'm calling him out as a TK troll on chat/coms and engaging him directly.

Edited by Fenrisulvyn, 25 March 2015 - 07:53 PM.

[ShinVector]

Tesunie, on 25 March 2015 - 07:17 PM, said:

It can be done in PUGs, but often times it's you making sure you work around your teammates rather than having them working with you and you with them equally... It's much easier in a group of players who are already familiar with each other, and are in better communication with each other as well.

PUGS == CATS !! Nahhhhh... J...
*Agreed mostly.

[Tesunie]

Fenrisulvyn, on 25 March 2015 - 07:51 PM, said:

If he does it again I'm calling him out as a TK troll on chat/coms and engaging him directly.

Best to mention it in comms if you can, and just screen shooting the incident and reporting him. (Unless he really goes at you and is trying to kill you. Then by all means, defend yourself.) Don't be too quick to return your fire, as it reflects poorly on you then. (Even if I agree with you.)

[no one]

Tarogato, on 25 March 2015 - 07:25 PM, said:

*stuff*

Firstly, in most maps there are multiple paths to any given location. When a map has an obvious choke point, like the caldera in Mordor people rush to hold that center point precisely because it controls the number of locations and speed at which enemies can appear. If the opposing team already controls the center it is suicide to try to push in.

Tarogato, on 25 March 2015 - 07:25 PM, said:

If you keep you distance from him and he goes out alone, he dies without support.

Only if you wait an exceptionally long time to move up, or the situation was bad enough that the dire-wolf should NOT have walked into it. Wait for your Assault to clear a path, and then move up. A good assault pilot will stick to cover until it's support is in position.

Tarogato, on 25 March 2015 - 07:25 PM, said:

If you follow behind him and he goes out, he's not alone and you're more likely to succeed.

No. You aren't supporting him as long as you're directly behind him. That pilot is moving in 100 tons at 50 kph, or about 14 m/s and you're going no faster in a choke point. It takes about 5 seconds for a 50 kph 'Mech to go from toddling forward to full reverse. If you match their speed and leave 70 meters you're 5 seconds behind them, but can still react if they start to pull back. If you're faster than 50 kph you can close that gap fast as soon as there's a clear path.

Tarogato, on 25 March 2015 - 07:25 PM, said:

If you follow behind him and he gets cold feet, he gets stuck and takes extra fire.

Assuming you didn't leave adequate following distance.

Tarogato, on 25 March 2015 - 07:25 PM, said:

Only one of those three scenarios will definitely result in the death of the DWF.

I'd say that rather depends on what the Direwolf's walking into.

TLDR; If you're shuffling single file, nuts to butts into a situation in which a dire-wolf dies in seconds you are doing it wrong.

Edited by no one, 25 March 2015 - 11:05 PM.

[hoxxie1156]

Honestly the way my first 30 games have gone, I don't understand why anyone moves at all. The way the maps are designed, and everyone trying thier hardest to never have to move into brawling range IE (200-350m). This game should be named, (Hump a Rock wall Warrior), Or (Strafe a Wall warrior), (Camp it first 8 minutes of the match Online warrior).

Boring as hell.

Tend to just try and stay out of the heavies way's, and try and back them up (if they move at all). Cover their flanks with my Ac20.

Edited by hoxxie1156, 25 March 2015 - 11:31 PM.

[Rogue Jedi]

no one, on 25 March 2015 - 11:04 PM, said:

Firstly, in most maps there are multiple paths to any given location. When a map has an obvious choke point, like the caldera in Mordor people rush to hold that center point precisely because it controls the number of locations and speed at which enemies can appear. If the opposing team already controls the center it is suicide to try to push in.

it is not suicide if the team has and executes a plan, but you have to do a coordinated push preferably on multiple entrances at the same time, and everyone has to move in, if someone starts taking fire and stops the push fails, that person gets focused fired to death and those holding the center decimate your team.

[SethAbercromby]

Rogue Jedi, on 26 March 2015 - 02:09 AM, said:

it is not suicide if the team has and executes a plan, but you have to do a coordinated push preferably on multiple entrances at the same time, and everyone has to move in, if someone starts taking fire and stops the push fails, that person gets focused fired to death and those holding the center decimate your team.

True. I had one situation on TT, where after taking some losses on our team thanks to a suicide lance and me accidentally getting lost in the first minute with my Misery (it was like 2am and I didn't realize I assumed to be at a different spawn point for too long to walk the entire way back), resulted in us being several people down and me having the shortest path to a different entrace the rest of my team was positioned at.

This was before VOIP, so I write in chat "I'll draw their attention, you push, I follow". To our luck, the enemy presence was still reduced in the cauldron as some of them were still on they way back from slaughtering the suicide lance, So I poke out, fire on the biggest 'Mech I see and dive back. I repeated this a few times to make sure i had their attention and also to be able to react as fast as I can when my allies come through their entrace. Unfortunately for me though, nobody did. Since this was pre-viop and I couldn't really disengage properly to write, I kept going until the enemies rushed me down and called my people out on their behavior. The responses I got where "we were helping" and "what do you expect a 4LL 4N to do?"

Turns out, they stood just behind the entrance and took turns fring potshots at whatever was visible, but without really exerting any presence on the enemy team, an important ingridient for an effective split push.

Edited by SethAbercromby, 26 March 2015 - 02:40 AM.

[Skarlock]

hoxxie1156, on 25 March 2015 - 11:22 PM, said:

Honestly the way my first 30 games have gone, I don't understand why anyone moves at all. The way the maps are designed, and everyone trying thier hardest to never have to move into brawling range IE (200-350m). This game should be named, (Hump a Rock wall Warrior), Or (Strafe a Wall warrior), (Camp it first 8 minutes of the match Online warrior).

Boring as hell.

Tend to just try and stay out of the heavies way's, and try and back them up (if they move at all). Cover their flanks with my Ac20.

If you want to engage at close range quickly and easily, learn to pilot light mechs or the faster medium mechs. The problem with brawling is that if you are big, and slow, and short ranged, and high damage, people will focus YOU before anything else. They will do everything in their power to prevent you from bringing your guns to their optimal range and then proceeding to rip their faces off, unsurprisingly. If you are fast though, you can brawl and pick off targets, or simply run away if things get too hot as long as you pick your targets carefully and know the map.

Some maps are punishing to pure short range brawlers, like alpine peaks, others are pretty rewarding for brawlers, like mining collective. This is why a lot of players favor medium range mechs, as they aren't the best at every map, but aren't the worst either.

[Elizander]

Fenrisulvyn, on 25 March 2015 - 07:18 PM, said:

It happens, and takes time to move back too.

But what frosts me is people who "need" the entire ramp. You don't get to claim 100 yards of lane.

Worse, the ones who step in front of your firing lane, then back into you and get mad at you for blocking *them*

There are also those who walk up with two medium lasers and a large laser to block the 96 alpha direwolf that already has targets in sight. Now the Dire can't fire and the enemy takes 10 damage and ducks back under cover.

[Piney II]

Unless forced, I try to keep a respectable distance behind and to one side of the mech(s) I'm following. This gives those mechs room to maneuver and gives me a clear lane of fire. If a conga line is climbing a ramp, I'll wait until they're clear before I go up the ramp to avoid the traffic jam when someone decides to reverse.

A lot of players drive their mechs like they're the only ones on the battlefield. You just try to anticipate the dumb moves and always give yourself an out. Sometimes easier said than done......

[NuclearPanda]

Piney, on 26 March 2015 - 04:18 AM, said:

Unless forced, I try to keep a respectable distance behind and to one side of the mech(s) I'm following. This gives those mechs room to maneuver and gives me a clear lane of fire. If a conga line is climbing a ramp, I'll wait until they're clear before I go up the ramp to avoid the traffic jam when someone decides to reverse.

A lot of players drive their mechs like they're the only ones on the battlefield. You just try to anticipate the dumb moves and always give yourself an out. Sometimes easier said than done......

But what if I like driving like I'm the last mech on the planet?

[Mondeza]

White Bear 84, on 25 March 2015 - 07:18 PM, said:

Watch before you run right in front of a team mate, chances are you are about to walk into their fire. And if your in a light, for the love of god, unless you guys are coordinating - do not stand in front of heavies/assaults.

I could not agree more.......also because I learnt this lesson from WhiteBear.

Do not stand behind other Mechs, yes there are times when you are walking across than they back into you. You should have given more space but if you not on TS you cant exactly say "Passing behind you Bear".

Also the worse is when you about to launch 3 SRM6 into some one and your team walk and then stand in front of you. That is a sure way to get shot in the back by your own team. Situational awareness is key.

[Cricket504]

I'll add one to this. If your in a choke point, don't cross back and forth over the narrow for your shots, you are blocking everyone behind you.Making yourself the meat shield or letting the ones behind you eat the fire inbound with little fire outbound is a good way to kill your team.