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1St Drop For Is Needs 10-12 Assaults! Math Proof.


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#1 Leeroy Mechkins

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 05:51 PM

IS needs almost everyone to drop an assault mech the 1st wave to match Clan! The math shows it.

CLAN side calculation:
Timberwolf is a 75 ton mech that fights as well or better than an IS 80 tonner.
Hellbringer is a 65 ton mech that fights as well as an IS 70 tonner and has ECM.
Kitfox is a 30 ton mech that fights ok like an IS 30 ton mech.
Assuming 9 TBR, 2 HBR, 1 KFX(scout) that is 835 tons that fights like 890 tons of IS mechs.

IS side calculation:
In order to fight 890 tons worth of mechs, IS needs at least 890 tons of mechs.
Assuming IS has a 35 tons raven scout/ECM/Narc, the other 11 players need on average a 77.7 ton mech each. That means a Victor/Awesome/Zeus or heavier assault mech.
If 2 ravens, the other 10 players need an 81 ton mech on average. A Stalker/Battlemaster or heavier.

In other words, IS FIRST WAVE NEEDS 10-12 ASSAULTS TO MATCH CLAN. (Unless its a 12 man gen rush with lights). If you doubt this, check out the math yourself.
Unfortunately most IS 1st wave drops have many lights and meds and 5-6 Assaults at the most.
So IS 1st wave melts to superior Clan 1st wave tonnage and performance.

I highly recommend every IS player in CW start considering Assaults.
Those big lumbering hunks of junk are our defence against the clan OP mobiles.
10-11 Stalkers 1-2 ECM/Narc light/LRM boat is recommended.

Edited by Leeroy Mechkins, 25 March 2015 - 06:40 PM.


#2 sycocys

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 07:18 PM

Sorry man, you are just plain wrong in your calculations when most of the IS heavies in the 65 ton range are the equivalent or better than 100 ton assaults. Far better dps per ton, far more mobility and speed.

And none of the Clan mechs are even close to that if you and your team push on them, if you let them stay cool of course they are going to blast you to pieces.

I do understand your frustration, but you are looking in the wrong places to find the source of the problem.

#3 Leeroy Mechkins

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 08:43 PM

Well as long as the first mech can match up to a Timberwolf, which is very very good.
There are only a handful of mechs that can push back instead of being pushed around by Timbers.
When the orcs come storming Gondor, there is nothing more reassuring than a solid line of Stalkers.

I usually see Timberwolf waves rip IS 1st wave to shreds, then the game quickly spirals downhill, game over.
Don't save your best mechs for last, the first fight is going to be tough and decisive for the game.

Edited by Leeroy Mechkins, 25 March 2015 - 08:52 PM.


#4 slide

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 09:42 PM

Tonnage calculations don't tell the whole story and never will.

Tactics, weapons, focus fire, movement and a myriad other things all influence the outcome.

Example: Dropped in a game on Boreal against a Clan Wolf team, who announced upfront they were trying something new.

Their plan: 12 Direwolves on the first wave. 1200 tonnes and a 12 man on paper should wipe the floor with a random pug team in an equally random drop deck, including me who mistakenly dropped in my Enforcer and not my Battlemaster.

Result: 12 dead Direwolves to 1 dead IS player. Their lack of Mobility with no support mechs against copious LRMS delivered courtesy of UAV's and light and medium mechs spotting and sniping from the rear was their downfall. Took out 1 DW by myself by coring out his back. Not too mention they wasted better than 5 minutes just getting 1 gate open because they had nothing that could get up high and then out of the way without getting chewed up by long range fire.

They even admitted at the end of the match that it was a bad idea.

Dropping almost exclusively Assault or Lights when defending is most likely always going to be a recipe for disaster because if the enemy team brings the opposite of what you have you are either outgunned or outflanked from the get go. It is inherently more difficult to defend because you have to react to what the enemy is doing, whereas the attacker knows what he is trying to do.

What you suggest would likely work if you know exactly what the enemy is going to do. Unless you are clairvoyant then you need at least some flexibility. This is probably the single biggest advantage the Clans have over the IS as most of their mechs are very mobile as well as backing significant firepower. With the exception of a few over quirked mechs most IS mechs have to give up mobility to match firepower. It is almost a choice of being able to outgun anything you cant outrun (Assaults) or outrunning anything you can't out gun (lights) with the middle ground giving you flexibility but possibly leaving you at a disadvantage.

It's all part of the fun I think.

#5 Leeroy Mechkins

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Posted 25 March 2015 - 11:39 PM

I get your point and use heavies and LRMs myself.

My dropdeck is Stalker5S(2LPL/4ML/2AMS) Thunderbolt 5SS(7MPL) Thunderbolt 5SS(7MPL) Firestarter 9-S(4MPL/1SL). Sometimes an LRM boat first on Boreal Defence. I know full well how strong the Thunderbolt is, but its much better fighting Stormcrows than Timberwolves, so I put it later in dropdeck order.

In summary, always expect to have a tough fight first wave and bring a strong strong mech!

Edited by Leeroy Mechkins, 25 March 2015 - 11:51 PM.


#6 sycocys

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 02:42 AM

From most of the matches I've played with units outside of OLD, the number one issue has been players actively not pushing onto the clans to take advantage of the IS strengths.

Hoping this is isolated to random FRR groups and will be able to tell you more about it as I explore the other factions, but when teams go out of their way to keep the clan teams running cool they are destroying themselves, it has nothing to do with the tonnage differences at that point.

ECM stacks create by far a much worse problem because once you have 3-4+ they are no longer counterable and most of the organized units that I've played against run 5+ per drop because Clan mechs have more viable mechs for ecm.

Russ mentioned adding an IS heavy with ecm, but I don't think he understands the S-storm this will cause and how it will do nothing to balance the game outside breaking the coordination ability for both sides of the field.

#7 Tasker

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 07:06 AM

To beat clan team, IS team need better players. The end.

Even players, clan mech win.

Edited by Tasker, 26 March 2015 - 07:06 AM.


#8 sycocys

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 07:27 AM

Even players clan ecm wins, its truly the deciding factor. The mechs are on the whole fairly balanced upsides vs downsides.

I think we'd see that clearly if you had two good units set up a match and agree to either no ecm or an ecm limit. It would be a close match, but IS would probably take it because they can sustain dps much longer.

#9 Tasker

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 07:30 AM

Only bad player think ECM is deciding factor. LRM is a **** weapon, and once you understand, you no longer care about ECM.

Good clan team use Streak Crow, ECM not matter because of UAV and BAP. Good clan team do not use LRM. Only good IS teams are Kurita, and none use LRM.

ECM Hellbringer is good because Hellbringer is good mech on own merits. Combine ECM to make call targets harder, is good feature. However, think it very unlikely that Stalker 4N or Thunderbolt 5SS get ECM, so who care? ECM on bad mech is still bad mech.

Edited by Tasker, 26 March 2015 - 07:31 AM.


#10 sycocys

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 09:40 AM

The problem ecm stack has very little to do with lrms. It's a completely uncounterable information denial system when its stacked. Yes it does prevent locks, but the total lockdown on the other team being able to effectively if at all call targets is where the problem resides.

If the counters actually worked, I'd have less issue with it - but even bap is completely overriden by that one extra ecm just outside its coverage.

Ecm doesn't need to be on a meta mech to change the match, that's been apparent since the day it was released. It just has to be flooding the field on okay mechs that have alright/acceptable dps and reasonable mobility/armor because it destroys the other teams ability to coordinate effectively.

It would/will be the same exact issue if they release an ecm heavy for the IS without fixing ecm. You'll see a lot of teams drop their dps down because completely denying the opposing team the ability to effectively coordinate will beyond overcome any amount of damage output they will be sacrificing in the process.

Edited by sycocys, 26 March 2015 - 09:41 AM.


#11 LordSkyKnight

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 10:13 AM

View PostLeeroy Mechkins, on 25 March 2015 - 08:43 PM, said:

Well as long as the first mech can match up to a Timberwolf, which is very very good.
There are only a handful of mechs that can push back instead of being pushed around by Timbers.
When the orcs come storming Gondor, there is nothing more reassuring than a solid line of Stalkers.

I usually see Timberwolf waves rip IS 1st wave to shreds, then the game quickly spirals downhill, game over.
Don't save your best mechs for last, the first fight is going to be tough and decisive for the game.


The only mech that matches up to a Timber is another Timber. The IS doesn't have anything that good. 12 Timbers against 12 Stalker 4Ns would be a close fight, but then after that wave the remaining tonnage on each side is exactly the same. 3 waves of stormcrows later and its all over.

View PostTasker, on 26 March 2015 - 07:06 AM, said:

To beat clan team, IS team need better players. The end.

Even players, clan mech win.

This guy is exactly correct. You don't need target info to shoot at center torsos. The clan mechs are better at killing enemy center torsos, so they have the advantage.

Edited by LordSkyKnight, 26 March 2015 - 10:17 AM.


#12 Elizander

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Posted 26 March 2015 - 10:24 AM

Just get 3 Thunderbolt 5SS with 4-5 ER LL each.

#13 PerfectDuck

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Posted 28 March 2015 - 06:43 AM

I have always believed in the concept of out-tonning opponents. It makes a HUGE difference in pug 12v12 and the concept carries over into CW and is a huge factor in momentum.

This is why we light rush. It plays the strengths of the Inner Sphere very well, as we have the superior light mechs that are able to really wreak some havoc before they go down. If a light rush manages to succeed in getting 6 or so kills, it not only has already paid for itself in tonnage but all of the team's subsequent waves will be heavy, instead of a clanner light-phobic 55/60/75/50 deck that has one fiersome Timber Wolf flagship and then is weaker for the rest of the game.

#14 Verkhne

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Posted 28 March 2015 - 06:46 AM

LOL Victor/Awesome/Zeus The clans will thank you! You may be right but for the IS there is only one assault mech to bring in your drops. I am sure we all know what it is!

#15 PerfectDuck

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Posted 28 March 2015 - 07:28 AM

View PostVerkhne, on 28 March 2015 - 06:46 AM, said:

LOL Victor/Awesome/Zeus The clans will thank you! You may be right but for the IS there is only one assault mech to bring in your drops. I am sure we all know what it is!


Battlemaster? Stalker? Banshee? Atlas? King Crab? I don't know. All of these are fielded by Night's Scorn members.

#16 Verkhne

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Posted 28 March 2015 - 08:28 AM

Yeah units due to cohesion can certainly run a broader array of mechs than for PUGS. I have no doubt your skilled pilots can perform well in the Battlemaster and Banshees. However if you were dropping against a Clan 10-12 man selection/evolution may change Assault mech choice.

#17 Novawrecker

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Posted 28 March 2015 - 08:41 AM

View Postsycocys, on 26 March 2015 - 02:42 AM, said:

ECM stacks create by far a much worse problem because once you have 3-4+ they are no longer counterable ...


Why?

What's stopping anyone from -
- Identifying a mech from distance?
- Using direct fire weapons to nail targets?
- Focus firing said target with said weapons above?

Mutiple ECM doesn't mean jack squat. So you can't "R" lock the target to get its paperdoll info. Your team can still focus fire on one location of the mech: "nail target X in the leg, left torso, etc."

#18 POOTYTANGASAUR

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Posted 28 March 2015 - 11:42 AM

My best dropdeck is this:
1st - Stalker-4n with 6erll
2nd - Wolverine-6k with 3erll, 2mlas
3rd - Shadowhawk-2k with 3erll
4th - Blackjack-1x with 1 lgplas, 5mlas

This dropdeck is extremely good. Extremely. Have fun.

#19 Leeroy Mechkins

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Posted 28 March 2015 - 07:54 PM

View PostElizander, on 26 March 2015 - 10:24 AM, said:

Just get 3 Thunderbolt 5SS with 4-5 ER LL each.


ERLL has low dps and cannot hold against a charge.
I have elited 5SS with 4ERLLs and gave up on them for these reasons.
Switched 5SS back to 7MPLs and they do much better.

Edited by Leeroy Mechkins, 28 March 2015 - 07:56 PM.


#20 Leeroy Mechkins

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Posted 28 March 2015 - 08:02 PM

My ideal dropdeck:
1st - Stalker-4n with 5LLs
2nd - Thunderbolt 5SS with 7MPLs
3rd - Thunderbolt 5SS with 7MPLs
4th - Firestarter 9-S with 4MPL, 1SL

If a tough mech is needed, Stalker will break through. If a light is needed, Firestarter is perfect.
The Thunderbolt 5SS are good all-round mechs, not as good as Timberwolves but can deal with Stormcrows.





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