Jump to content

Let Us Build You New Trial Mechs


10 replies to this topic

#1 Durandal

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Blade
  • The Blade
  • 227 posts
  • LocationDenver, CO

Posted 27 March 2015 - 09:12 AM

It's time this gets brought up again...it's time to re-do the trial mech builds that are put out there for new players to use, since this is starting to get bad. There are a number of reasons for this.

To begin with, many of the Champion IS builds are outdated, relying on builds and mechanics that are over a year old; examples include the DRG-5N (which was built before the Gauss charge mechanic), the STK-3F (which features an easily destroyable XL engine), and more. However, the clan mech trials are, in many cases, even worse...but to understand why, we need to analyze exactly what a trial mech is supposed to be.

The problem: For a new player, there are only two options: either spend real money to immediately set up some mechs (which is not always a good option, since not all hero mechs are battle-ready upon purchase), or grind away at trial mechs in order to get the cbills they need. However, there are a number of trial mechs which are inadvisable for new players for various reasons. For instance:

The Dire Wolf: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...6099350b37d01c3 - This straight-from-table-top build features a horrid heat mitigation rate (15%), and six different types of weapons: AC2's, LBX10, cERSL, cMPL, and cERPPC. While it is near full armor, unlike some trial clanmechs, it is so hot that it is basically a noob trap, cooking pilots alive who have nowhere near the experience needed to handle something that runs so hot.

The Banshee: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...13a118396fb9694 - This trial mechs falls prey to the same problem that a former trial had (the Warhawk Prime), in that the mechanic that describes how Ghost Heat works in the game is not easily noticeable for a new player unfamiliar with the UI. It has become a common occurrence to see a new player bringing the Banshee onto the field, only to instantly overheat when they fire a full alpha strike while unaware of the consequences. Just like the Warhawk before it, it is a noob trap with unexplained mechanics that only hurts people trying the mech.

The Mist Lynx: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...645e71595f5844c - One of the most insulting on this list, the MLX is one of the most ineffectively built trial mechs that we've ever been given. Another build straight from table top, this build has a maximum possible damage of 460 in a match, assuming that every single missile and machine gun bullet hits its target. Beyond 460, the only hope this build has of doing damage is by collision and mech-kicking with jump jets. It is one of the most laughable builds in the game just from the loadout, however the ridiculous armor allocations make it even worse, making the easily hit arms and legs even weaker to return fire than usual.

The goal for trial mechs: To build effective, reasonable trial mechs for newbies to be using, we have to understand several concepts that must be in place:

Concept one, builds must be effective, efficient, yet simple. A perfect example of this would be the former Stormcrow trial mech (the Prime stock model): http://mwo.smurfy-ne...5b302fa3897320c - This simple laser vomit build meant only a few firing groups were needed for the mech. A good heat mitigation and armor allocation gave it the ability to survive some fire, and put out some hate without it becoming too much of a problem. While it was an option, the SCR-Prime was always one of my first recommendations for a new player due to its simplicity in understanding how the mechanics worked. The build itself was good, though not the best that the mech was capable of. It is not the meta, but it is still capable of performing well: precisely what a trial mech should be.

Concept two, builds across all trial mechs must include different weapon types, to promote learning of the weapons themselves. Ideally, in the future, this will go hand-in-hand with a more in depth tutorial mode. However, in general we should have mechs that center around certain play styles. In other words, we have a champion that is set up as a proper LRM Boat (LRMs with a BAP/cAP, and backup lasers, with proper ammunition and engines), a gauss mech backed up by proper quirks and builds, brawler builds using SRMs and SSRMs, laser vomit, and so on. There should be no weapon type that is ignored by any group of trial mechs.

Concept three, all trial mech builds must be focused enough to remain effective within a certain style of play, enough so that they are viable. Return to the MLX-Prime build above: it is utter trash. However, look at what a quick tweak of that build was able to create: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...5cca804cfdf2974 - while still low damage (660 max with that ammo), it has better armor and a more focused build just by dropping the LRM10 and going with normal SRMs. Alternatively: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...3dc72173736e4f6 - Similar build, 760 max damage now, and you have a potential critseeker mech. It took relatively no effort to make these tweaks.

Concept four, no trial mech will be placed in a match without enough ammunition to make it viable, and no weapons loadout should contradict itself to the detriment of the mech. Again, look at the original link for the MLX-Prime stock model. You have 18 shots with your LRM10 (one of the easiest weapons to spam at range). You have 25 shots with your SSRM4. Meanwhile, your 1,000 ammo for the machine gun will wear itself out very quickly. In short, this is a mech that cannot perform well in the long term. Even worse, you have a long range weapon system as your biggest damage dealer (LRM10), but more focus is given to the close range capabilities of the mech by devoting 3 weapons to that cause. While a larger mech could easily combine long and short range missiles, doing so on a 25 ton mech is foolish at best, and useless at worst.

Concept five, no trial mech will carry a build unsupported by its quirks. Quick list here: QKD-4G runs PPCs in a less-than-effective configuration, as they do not receive the best perks of quirks such as laser duration. The TBT-7M features specific quirks for LRM15's, but the build contains SSRM2's instead - no LRMs at all.

Concept six, no trial mech will carry a build with a heat efficiency under 30%. Worst offenders here: DWF-B (15%), MDD-Prime (22%), HBR-Prime (19%). Why is this important? Because these mechs are, first and foremost, for new players who don't know how to manage their heat. They need the help early on.

Concept seven, no trial mech will carry a payload that goes into ghost heat by more than 1 weapon. For instance, a trial clan mech might carry 7 ER Medium Lasers, but not 8. 3 PPCs, not 4. So on. This allows a player to see (and hopefully learn) that Ghost Heat exists, but not as such a level that they are instantly cooked to death (Banshee 3M with 6 LPLs).

With these concepts in mind, it is possible to build a new breed of trial mechs that are both useful, and good for new players to cut their teeth on. A long time ago, PGI went to people who were good at making builds and had them design many of the current champion mechs...the problem is that the game has changed since then, but the builds have not. Meanwhile, the stock Clan builds are table top formats, and it's been proven time and time again that what worked on paper does not work in this game, nor can it due to the change in medium. There are a number of very good builders out there. Some habitate this forum, some are on NGNG, others Reddit, and some on sites like Mechspecs. Many of us (myself included) will gladly offer to spend time, for free, building a better trial mech for the community.

So, why should we care? It's simple: new players are the lifeblood of any game, especially in a Free To Play model. It is a well-known quantity that this game has a high learning curve to begin with, but when you combine that with the simple fact that many of the trial mechs we give our new players are simply horrid for them to use, the game can seem impossible. By removing obstacles for new players who are just entering into the game, we increase the likelihood that they will remain playing into the future, thus ensuring that the game itself survives for a longer period.

I hope that this can reach the right eyes and ears; it is such a simple fix to improve many of these mechs to a more playable state that it should be a no-brainer, even more-so when there are many of us who will volunteer our time to make it so. I can only hope that the rest of the community will agree with this sentiment.

#2 Ryokens leap

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 1,180 posts
  • LocationEdmonton, Alberta, Canada

Posted 27 March 2015 - 09:31 AM

OP, if the trial mech were good nobody would buy any garbage hero/ invasions mechs, they'd just play trials.

#3 Elizander

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Legendary Founder
  • Legendary Founder
  • 7,540 posts
  • LocationPhilippines

Posted 27 March 2015 - 10:05 AM

I do agree that we should make Trials a little more simple. At the very least I'd recommend that the CW default drop deck be changed to mechs with different weapons only to keep things simple and not be too hot so you don't even give them the chance to trigger Ghost Heat.

Trial Raven (Ok) - 35 tons (ML + SRM)
Trial Dragon (Ok) - 60 tons (Gauss + LL)
2LPL+2LRM5+1LRM10 Jagermech - JM6-A
3LL+2SRM6+A Stalker - STK-4N

I am not saying these builds are the best, but they all have 2 weapon systems max (well the raven/jagermech has 3 but technically the SRM 4 and SRM 6 are the same) as well as a minimum of 40% heat and no chance of a player ghost heating. These are examples of what I think Trial mechs should be. They are not max Alpha builds but more for sustain while still having decent damage (the Jager might be a bit undergunned but I wanted to include an LRM mech which isn't totally gimped for having LRMs).

These can be played with 2 firing groups and there will be no massive heat spike due to ghost heat so the player will be able to measure their heat even if they press all the buttons. AMS plugged in most of them too (except the dragon) cause we all know newbies die to LRMs.

They are designed more to be simple and heat efficient rather than the 50+ damage alpha builds (Well it's hard not to make a stalker with 50 alpha but you know what I mean) we have now that more experienced players use so there will be reason for them to move on eventually to better things. :ph34r:

Edited by Elizander, 27 March 2015 - 10:12 AM.


#4 Tiamat of the Sea

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Guardian
  • Guardian
  • 1,326 posts

Posted 27 March 2015 - 10:24 AM

View PostDurandal, on 27 March 2015 - 09:12 AM, said:

A whole lot of good points and ideas.


I concur wholeheartedly and would gladly contribute to such an effort, for all that nobody has a bloody clue who I am or why they would care.

#5 Egomane

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,163 posts

Posted 27 March 2015 - 10:25 AM

I wouldn't change the current champion mech loadouts. The meta changes, gamemodes get added or adjusted. Things change, but that is no reason to change loadouts of pre-defined mechs.

New players shouldn't run around with all tricked out meta-mechs. if they do, they will never really learn to play the game. How many meta mechs have LRMs and how many threads do we have complaining about players that LRM are OP because they never learned how to use or how to avoid them?

Let the new players learn all aspects of the game. Even the frustrating ones.

I am all for community involvement for future champion mech loadouts. But those should also be fix once implemented.

Edited by Egomane, 27 March 2015 - 10:26 AM.


#6 Burktross

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • 3,663 posts
  • LocationStill in closed beta

Posted 27 March 2015 - 01:41 PM

One of the best posts all week, great work, dude. Whole heatedly agree.
I've lost many a friend due to ****** trial mechs...

#7 Elizander

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Legendary Founder
  • Legendary Founder
  • 7,540 posts
  • LocationPhilippines

Posted 27 March 2015 - 02:07 PM

Changing the existing ones are a pain since they are already there, but they can always make (C2) versions and release those instead while phasing out the old ones (maybe phasing them back in now and then).

#8 destroika

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 156 posts

Posted 27 March 2015 - 02:16 PM

Very well written and thought out OP and I agree all the way. I was lucky enough to have the trial SHD-2H with 2 ac5's and a ppc when I started.

I'm just surprised that even mechs as new as the mist lynx are still suffering from this severe of a disconnect between the dev's and the game's reality. Did this really have to get spelled out like this? Can someone please introduce the PGI game development team to their own game...

Can someone look up and define the word "foresight" for me? And try to use it in a sentence containing MWO subject matter.

Edited by destroika, 27 March 2015 - 02:18 PM.


#9 Durandal

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Blade
  • The Blade
  • 227 posts
  • LocationDenver, CO

Posted 27 March 2015 - 05:09 PM

View PostRyokens leap, on 27 March 2015 - 09:31 AM, said:

OP, if the trial mech were good nobody would buy any garbage hero/ invasions mechs, they'd just play trials.


View PostEgomane, on 27 March 2015 - 10:25 AM, said:

New players shouldn't run around with all tricked out meta-mechs. if they do, they will never really learn to play the game. How many meta mechs have LRMs and how many threads do we have complaining about players that LRM are OP because they never learned how to use or how to avoid them?


In regards to that, I would point at what I said about the SCR-Prime build; with 2 ERLLas and 3 ERMLas, it is a strong laser vomit build...but any experienced SCR pilot can tell you that it is far from the best build that the SCR is capable of running. It keeps in mind with the first concept, in that the build is effective/viable, but not the "best" build. Another great example was the Jenner champion, which runs the 3 MLas 3 SLas build with an XL300. Effective, but not what is generally considered as the "best" build for that mech.

The overall goal here isn't to make trial mechs the best mechs to pilot, but to make them better mechs for new players to pilot as they learn the game.

View PostElizander, on 27 March 2015 - 02:07 PM, said:

Changing the existing ones are a pain since they are already there, but they can always make (C2) versions and release those instead while phasing out the old ones (maybe phasing them back in now and then).


I'm not sure I would agree...if all we are doing is tweaking the loadouts, there isn't much reason why we couldn't change around what we have. A C2 wouldn't be a bad idea either, but if doing that is a way to try and retain more new players, it is something that we should at least consider.

Edited by Durandal, 27 March 2015 - 05:10 PM.


#10 Durandal

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Blade
  • The Blade
  • 227 posts
  • LocationDenver, CO

Posted 28 March 2015 - 04:15 PM

Shameless bump :P Still hoping to get some traction with this. Ideally, this would go hand-in-hand with a more in depth tutorial mode in the future as well...something to really improve the new player experience. All-in-all, I think it needs to be in place before Steam has MWO showing up.

#11 TheArisen

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 6,040 posts
  • LocationCalifornia

Posted 28 March 2015 - 10:44 PM

Great post, PGI should take notes, especially with steam release on the horizon.





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users