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Hey Guys Lets Talk A Bit About Clan Balance


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#1 Sarevos

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Posted 28 March 2015 - 12:11 AM

While I agree that clan tech can be op as f*** we don't have proper analogues.

I'm seeing clans claiming victory in what they call pug stomps and IS claiming theyre crushing and destroying them with superior equipment...

However i've seen IS take ground so far in CW, and the maps contested seem to downplay many range advantages.

Many of the contested worlds which the IS has attacked rather intelligently I believe were chosen because the maps eliminate the range bonuses clan has. Up close clans lose much advantage as IS can do the infight much better due to cooler weapons and thus higher dps. In an open field Clan wins by superior range and speed in most cases.

Have 12's fought 12's? screenshots? I would like to see empirical data otherwise clan and IS both are simply spouting conjecture

and even on the subject of Timbys and scrows how do you balance it? they ARE op (because theyre uncontested you cant deny that fellow clan aligned mercs) because theyre top of their weight class with a high number of hardpoints much like the phract was when it was released.

All clan mechs have the immortal XL so why are these disgusting? because they become brawlers with halfweight engines that is all... the hunch can dish damage out left right and center but cannot match speeds or cooling rates because its engine is twice as heavy as the scrow thats about all (besides nutso hitboxes).

So what? movement penalties on st loss? fine but thats not an issue in an infight once its already begun speed is key to arriving to the brawl not always the brawl it self (at least not 20% speed anyway) I dont think this alone will solve your problems guys.

I personally believe the clan will be op until mixed tech is available. There is no other way to balance the two until you can slap whatever on whatever. 10 v 12 is not it because 2 pilots beat 1 in every occasion simply because regardless of weight class ALL mechs can wield similar amounts of damage the larger your mech the larger a single weapon system can be but your damage increase is only about 5~10 (it still baffles me that firestarters can wield almost as much weaponry as a hunchie). We know this from the common concept that you never want to fight 2 on 1 in this game because dude who passes behind you in an "inferior machine" can still bust all your back armor off.and all that does is say at any given time 2 clanners have to fight 2 to 1 and their mechs superiority is definitely not a 2 to 1 (we are all reasonable adults who can use smurfy read the values and can see that right?)

Now let me rephrase this... If we are to speak of balance 10v12 principles do not work as they put the battle in the favor of the IS (I mean lore wise this is actually partially why the clans lose ground). BUT it cannot stay as is because the IS machines and equipment ARE inferior (I mean players cannot resort to dirty tactics as its not that kind of game lol the only way ground is gained is through a shooting match lol)

In order for balance on the grand scheme of CW however we have a few options

here is where it gets fun

if we were to have the IS drop in on planets in lets say 4 mans to fight a 4 man of clanners and drop defenses before the full attacks begins leaving the planet vulnerable to assault thats a deliciously dirty freebirth tactic that the clans cannot partake of during their attacks, makes a small group friendly mode of CW AND that makes the defense much harder for clan(only one wave though dropship's current implementation really hurts the ability to win decisively on skill it should allow you to pick from a stock of mechs depending on the team comp and field type not be a stock of 4 lives that should be a different game type altogether lol also prevents that **** from taking so long XD)

and clan can only attack through batchall identifying their setup before the match locking them in and the IS is allowed to "identify" other mechs in their dropship and hide the one they are using.
This provides a significant tactical advantage for the innersphere and doenst rely on the clan players to police themselves in combat as these become game mechanics and not optional (like mech/weapon choice)

Any other ideas?

TLDR:

ST nerfs wont help balance you can have them too but only mixed tech will truly balance while keeping quirks for IS mechs only for IS equipment at that point no complaints can be made as if its op everyone can wield it and thus things are no longer "this side is X or that side is X" but "this thing is X" again which is better than where were at now

but as that is a ways off (and i feel the only way to do any kind of faction balance)

for CW balance we could look at:

Sneaky Sneaky 4 man pre attacks on planets for the IS

Full Disclosure Batchall for Clans

Please tell me what you think and please explain your own ideas use examples if you can =D

Edited by Sarevos, 28 March 2015 - 12:12 AM.


#2 Gyrok

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Posted 28 March 2015 - 12:14 AM

Clans lost 8 planets in CW tonight...think that says it all...

#3 Johnny Z

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Posted 28 March 2015 - 12:14 AM

I agree. Nerf the Cheese Wolf and Cheese crow cannot be said enough. Nerf the other two OP clan mechs also but in a small way.

#4 Anarcho

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Posted 28 March 2015 - 12:17 AM

Im tired of that... you know what? Nerf the clans as much as you want, because that is not going to change the fact that most whiners are just bad players.

IMO the balance is almost there, it isnt near the huge difference some ppl think it is...

#5 Hillslam

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Posted 28 March 2015 - 12:29 AM

I'm just sick of this whole F**King topic and wish PGI would give us a 3025 mode.

#6 Sarevos

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Posted 28 March 2015 - 12:30 AM

View PostGyrok, on 28 March 2015 - 12:14 AM, said:

Clans lost 8 planets in CW tonight...think that says it all...


No it doesnt you havent stated or shown "why" yet if pugs defended the planets against 12 mans then that would be an obvious answer.

View PostJohnny Z, on 28 March 2015 - 12:14 AM, said:

I agree. Nerf the Cheese Wolf and Cheese crow cannot be said enough. Nerf the other two OP clan mechs also but in a small way.


Sir you have not read my post lol Its only because of them being top of their class in weight most mechs carrying those distinctions were op until other models came along like the K2 which is now a distant memory...

View PostAnarcho, on 28 March 2015 - 12:17 AM, said:

Im tired of that... you know what? Nerf the clans as much as you want, because that is not going to change the fact that most whiners are just bad players.

IMO the balance is almost there, it isnt near the huge difference some ppl think it is...


nah the engines do actually screw the balance even though we cant change it its just so very weight cheap sorry to say but thats numbers homie. Meta says it is that way too =/

its sort of almost there due to very insane quirks but i defy you to lose to a cataphract one on one or even a battlemaster in a Timby at distance. Its actually quite hard even if they get close they can fire often but you outmaneuver them very easily no matter how good they are.

View PostHillslam, on 28 March 2015 - 12:29 AM, said:

I'm just sick of this whole F**King topic and wish PGI would give us a 3025 mode.


oooook? but what are your thoughts? do you have any kind of idea? clan mechs made pgi a ton of corporate fun bucks and that does keep the server lights on so you KNEW that was coming.

#7 Hillslam

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Posted 28 March 2015 - 12:40 AM

Well, seeing as some of the most activity in CW has been IS on IS faction fighting - at least judging by the map, that tells me alot about what the player base wants.

PGI should take the clue and add the mode.

#8 Sarevos

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Posted 28 March 2015 - 12:53 AM

View PostHillslam, on 28 March 2015 - 12:40 AM, said:

Well, seeing as some of the most activity in CW has been IS on IS faction fighting - at least judging by the map, that tells me alot about what the player base wants.

PGI should take the clue and add the mode.


Actually money tells them XD

but we dont know if thats because IS got tired of losing to clan or if clanners swapped sides to play with their IS mechs which many (myself included) have more of and simply didnt want to lose loyalty points killing their old bosses (we are mercs you know? my contract expires tonight I played clan to "rpjustify" my owning clan machines)

#9 Hillslam

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Posted 28 March 2015 - 01:17 AM

The only thing they sell are mechs. Think about that.

CW had groups going IS v IS from day 1. In fact before day1 groups were planning to go IS v IS.
So according to the CW map we see:
-IS vs IS
-Clan vs IS
-almost no clan vs clan

That tells me when players want an even fight they are playing IS v IS.
when they want a challenge they play IS vs clan.
when they want easymode they play clan vs IS.
and we see that players who are running clan mechs dont want an even fight when they drive them, as proven by the near total lack of clan v clan on the CW map.

Its not arguable - if they did there'd be a ton of clan v clan and the CW map would look VERY different.

Edited by Hillslam, 28 March 2015 - 01:26 AM.


#10 Sarevos

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Posted 28 March 2015 - 01:27 AM

View PostHillslam, on 28 March 2015 - 01:17 AM, said:

The only thing they sell are mechs. Think about that.


Wha? They sell mc and mc buys alot of things not just mechs?

Im sorry I dont think I got what you were implying but My point is if people are buying clan mechs that indicates they want to use them... why else would you buy it?

whether or not they can feasibly do so is another matter...

Clans are trying to push in towards terra last i checked why take territory from each other? they are all against the IS arent we all rp/lorefiends here?

also Jade Falcon has been doing a bit of romping in fellow clan territory just not much

and yes the is had infighting which is what allowed clans to push so deep in the first place heck Kitty Steiner took her brothers throne while he was out fighting the clans you act like this isnt almost EXACTLY how the war went in lore minus the distance the clans had pushed

#11 Sarevos

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Posted 28 March 2015 - 01:37 AM

View PostHillslam, on 28 March 2015 - 01:17 AM, said:

The only thing they sell are mechs. Think about that.

CW had groups going IS v IS from day 1. In fact before day1 groups were planning to go IS v IS.
So according to the CW map we see:
-IS vs IS
-Clan vs IS
-almost no clan vs clan

That tells me when players want an even fight they are playing IS v IS.
when they want a challenge they play IS vs clan.
when they want easymode they play clan vs IS.
and we see that players who are running clan mechs dont want an even fight when they drive them, as proven by the near total lack of clan v clan on the CW map.

Its not arguable - if they did there'd be a ton of clan v clan and the CW map would look VERY different.


It IS though anyone who is a lifer with their faction did it for roleplay reasons thats kind of the point of having CW set in this form If they did it for those reasons dont you think they would follow those exact same motivations?

and also SOMEONE attacks clan all the time I dont know where your data is coming from. Its not the map because my notifications wont shut the hell up about defending planets

#12 Hillslam

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Posted 28 March 2015 - 02:02 AM

my data comes from the map - if the clans were fighting clans to any significant degree whatsoever the map would look COMPLETELY different than it does. no - the clans are pretty much only attacking IS planets.

#13 Sarevos

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Posted 28 March 2015 - 02:32 AM

View PostHillslam, on 28 March 2015 - 02:02 AM, said:

my data comes from the map - if the clans were fighting clans to any significant degree whatsoever the map would look COMPLETELY different than it does. no - the clans are pretty much only attacking IS planets.


It wouldnt if they fail to take the planet...

also

http://www.norrisdev.com/mwocw/

they are attacking each other JF Wolf and gb

EDIT: At the time of this posting anyway

Edited by Sarevos, 28 March 2015 - 02:33 AM.


#14 Knyx

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Posted 28 March 2015 - 04:24 AM

-1 million posts about Timber Crow being OP, 0 posts with evidence.

- Clans do NOT have a range advantage or bonus. Due to over quirking by a large margin IS mechs hold the longest ranges, they also hold the highest burst damage, and highest DPS after 2 alphas. I would suggest you look online for the top IS builds if you are having troubles and look at what their quirks are.

#15 Lord0fHats

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Posted 28 March 2015 - 04:44 AM

The Clan losses in CW have little to do with Mech balance and more to do with population balance. I knew the moment the new event was called the Clans were going to lose ground because;

-There are 6 IS factions, and only 4 Clan factions.
-All the clan factions are underpopulated compared to 4 of the IS factions
-Only members of the same Clan can attack a planet, while any IS player may defend it.

The Clans will lose ground solely because they're horribly outnumbered. Combined, all 4 clans are probably equal to an IS faction (save FRR), but because the clan players are split into four, it's impossible for us to take ground faster than we're losing it.

#16 CutterWolf

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Posted 28 March 2015 - 05:14 AM

Just wow, you sir are horribly misinformed. If you think Clan vs IS = easy mode and that Clans not attacking other Clans is a sign of this? I don't know what your smoking but please start passing it around. The only time any drop is "easy mode" is when you drop against pub's who don't want to work as a team and bring in total crap builds and that goes for IS or Clans. Also, its pretty much common knowledge that the four Clans have a cease fire agreement between them so that we can all push into the IS. And unlike the IS we tend to keep our agreements, just saying.

#17 CrushLibs

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Posted 28 March 2015 - 05:16 AM

Clans fight IS because that is what we do. If IS would stop bitching about TW and SC and start playing together against the clans ,, clans would disappear.

I personally don't like the TW I think it runs to hot and Iam not a big JJer, I think its stupid to have locked JJs on any mech.

Only "nerfing" the TW needs is fixed hitboxes while JJing, also every IS mech should have its hitboxes checked/fixed especially the all IS light mechs and the newly released enforcer.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Any energy range quirk = longer ERPPC range and any 10%+ range quirk = longer ERL range too
SRM quirks = longer IS range
ballistic quirks = longer AC/UAC range + pinpoint dmg too

Really worried about the TW being OP just put 4 PPC not ERPPC but PPC on a 5SS

even pushed the easy button for you: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a9b7c9b21630ba5

25% range = 675m / 1350max , 10 heat - 15%= 8.5 heat (old clan ERL heat rating) , -15% cooling time

Now stop your crying and build a better mech and don't forget to shoot 2 + 2 so no ghost heat.

Edited by CrushLibs, 28 March 2015 - 05:19 AM.


#18 LordKnightFandragon

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Posted 28 March 2015 - 05:43 AM

Clans arent that OP really.

Sure, they can pack in more guns, more armor, more everything, but that more everything is all burst or spread damage over a longer duration, usually you cant deliver that 2 more damage on the same spot, unless your target is an idiot.

IS Lasers are better in many ways, that faster duration? IN a game about quick damage delivery? IS get their 7 dmg on target where your aiming, cuz no one has 0.5s of reaction time to twist away. Clan lasers get their 11 dmg on 3 locations of your mech, cuz people have 1.5s of reaction time to twist away probably 4 of that damage.

Clan ballistics are a joke, jamming up, spreading damage......yeah.
IS Ballistics are PPD, absolutely murder if yuo can put on more then 1. Ive got 2 AC5s on my Zeu and its the only time ive ever almost felt like a cheese ball in this game.

PPCs, atleast the IS get a 10/10 PPC that is worth firing. CERPPC are 10/15s, way to hot for the damage they deliver.

And while the IS GR is 15t vs C 12, atleast the IS have other weapons to choose from that can PPFLD. Clans only other option is a useless CERPPC...



THen IS Quirks? They have pretty much swung teh pendulum in the IS Favor in alot of ways. I know, no one wants ot admit the IS are not so hopeless, but its a running arguement that clans are and always will be OP. BUt they really are not. Quirks gave the IS even faster and more frequent damage delivery, for even less heat, less beam durations, much longer range just as the Clans have. THe IS are practically improved Clans in many ways now. TDR9S? It now has what the WHK/SMR/HBR wishes they had, 30% ERPPC velocity and a slight heat reduction to make it worth firing those.

Cicada is it? It has what? 1000m range on its LL?

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 28 March 2015 - 05:46 AM.


#19 SaltBeef

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Posted 28 March 2015 - 06:01 AM

Clans are the underdog for sure ...mission accomplished DEVs on Crappy to play clan mechs that overheat every 5 seconds with sharty hitreg weapons. 2 thumbs for shooting yourselves in the foot. Can get the points for the challenge but lose almost all matches in CW.

#20 Mirumoto Izanami

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Posted 28 March 2015 - 06:10 AM

Balance between clan and IS is pretty close. Yes there are a few IS mechs that could stand a slight adjustment downwards in their quirks, still, and there are also a few IS mechs that could stand some tuning upwards (oh woe are the Highlanders and Victors). And clan mechs could use the unlocking of ferro and endo options, to help under performing chassis, and Clan AC weapons could do with a reduction of 'shots fired'. But overall, its not far off from being reasonably balanced (if it isn't already).

And while there are more "viable" IS mechs than Clan mechs, thats just a factor of there simply being more IS mechs available. The percentage of viable IS mechs falls in line with the percentage of viable Clan mechs (and the next wave should help increase the percentage greatly - AC, SCAT, and CB).


View PostSaltBeef, on 28 March 2015 - 06:01 AM, said:

Clans are the underdog for sure ...mission accomplished DEVs on Crappy to play clan mechs that overheat every 5 seconds with sharty hitreg weapons. 2 thumbs for shooting yourselves in the foot. Can get the points for the challenge but lose almost all matches in CW.


If you're actually overheating every five seconds, and not just resorting to poor hyperbole to get some imaginary point across, then you have problems, and it isn't clan tech.

Edited by Mirumoto Izanami, 28 March 2015 - 06:11 AM.






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