22 replies to this topic

[Rehooja]

As the title says:

TL,DR
People foolishly rush for gens, losing a lot more mechs then the defenders. Then they think they got any chances to win when the game is at 21/34 or so.

They key is to push, but simultaneously get more kills and survive longer then the enemy does.
/TL,DR


Every frikken time i'm on invasion attack my team decides to push suicideshly to the generators. Sure it gets the generator done, but in trade we lose ALWAYS more mechs then the defending team. AND it usually goes so that the push gets way too stretched leaving some assault, maybe heavies behind that get later picked out because they cant stand their ground anymore. Reinforcement wont even get to the gates by the time they are dead.

I mean literally WTF! This is so foolish, ******** tactic that I have ever seen in ANY game.

Yes, the key is to get the gens and then the omega and that can't be done without pushing in the enemy side. BUT if you got way less mechs left then the enemy when you open omega, you will NOT win! I have seen that happen EVERY FRIKKEN SINGLE TIME. After the 3 gens are out with that suicide pushing the game situation is about 23/37 or so. And then some fool thinks he can win with that?

The proper way to do it is to push together slow enough to keep everyone along. Push all the way to the "safespots" like C4 B5 or E5 on grim portico or D6 D7 on boreal vault and setup a firing point. Get up a flank so you get more angle on the enemy. Then shoot out for 5 minutes or so to get in kills. After getting an upper hand over kills you can push into the generator on the side your fighting on or just rush a lightmech from the other side of the map while the battle goes on the other side. Then just repeat the progress: gather, slow push, get kills.

Doing it this way gets you upper hand on mechs and that way you can most likely win the game without much more effort then just moving in a blob and sweeping the leftovers. Doing this fastly enough you still get 5-10 minutes on clock when there's not much enemy mechs left and you can just walk in and sweep the gens and the omega.

Base idea is to get the situation to something like 39/30 or 35/20 and you basically own the rest of the game. People need to learn to survive the battle and not foolishly rush into the gens hoping for a quick win, because you will not be able to rush the omega and withstand all the beating they can put up with 29/37 situations. That game is a lost cause.

This suicide rushing tactic is disgusting to look at. Learn to kill and survive and maybe you will get some planets some day.

[Divine Retribution]

Don't see many FRR players rush gens from the start. At least not in NA primetime anyway.

In OLD drops gens don't matter unless something goes terribly wrong. We tend to kill the enemy and take out each gen once we've removed the clanners from the area, when we don't have anything else to shoot at. Often 2 of the 3 gens are still at full health when there are no enemies left.

Edited by Divine Retribution, 29 March 2015 - 01:53 AM.

[Moshi]

I think it might be less of a suicide rush if when a push is called, all 12 members of the team go along with the push. Seeing a lot of games where half the team goes to push and the other half stop after rounding a corner or don't move at all. Some people can't use the minimap to be able to move as a group, or see there's a 3-man on the enemy and give up altogether, declaring premade.

[Rehooja]

Divine Retribution that's exactly what it's supposed to be like when things go right. Rushing for the gens alone won't do any good.

[Sandersson Jankins]

I believe the problem is in communication. The in-game VOIP is of poorer quality than 3rd party VOIP (although I like it, MUH IMMERSION), so some players may mis-hear orders. This is especially cumbersome when English is not the primary language of all listeners. I'm a beginner learning Spanish and if I was asked to translate someone speaking through MWO VOIP, I'd be SOL.

Suggestion; when someone is taking lead of the drop that I feel is confident, I try to support them. Often this means typing out EVERY ORDER GIVEN. Text is much easier to understand, and some players don't use VOIP. Cover all your bases!

I've been in drops where the commander has given an order to push; the intent was to kill mechs and obtain a favorable fighting position. 3-4 of us thought gens were the priority. 1/3 of the fighting force, minus those that had already been slain means ensured defeat against competent enemies.

However, you say "maybe you'll get some planets one day"....

Didn't we take several planets just within the last few days? I've been in plenty of drops, mostly success. I've only experienced what you are describing twice out of perhaps a dozen games.

Is 1/6 of games including failed suicide rushes too high? Ideally, of course. The goal is always 100 percent success!

However, given I solo'd most of those drops (albeit with the same people most games, repeatedly solo queueing for the same planets. This happens a lot with FRR, people remain ungrouped but fight in multiple consecutive battles together), I feel that 1 out of every 6 games including a failed gen-rush isn't so bad. Indeed, a failed gen-rush does NOT imply a promised loss. Yeah, it's difficult, and morale will likely be low (worst problem, people stop trying), but victory is always able to be snatched from the jaws of defeat.

[Christopher Hamilton]

if the first push dont work, drop in your assault and tell them that you gonna shoot anyone who is not thru the gate at (some time). usually works.

i think sun tzu originally wrote this tactic down the first time...

Edited by Christopher Hamilton, 29 March 2015 - 03:27 AM.

[TheReverseMedic]

Ahh yes I remember playing with you for a drop and hearing of your opinion.
While I do respect your personal choice, your desire in that match to pretty much just trade long range blows with the Clans wasn't exactly helping us there. We had a large amount of brawler and shorter ranged mechs in our first drop in Borreal Vault so we tried to push the hills to negate the superiority of the Clans in the poke war.
Now while we did lose that match, it also was because we had our entire team split on what we wanted to do, half stayed back at the gates and traded with the Clans while the other half did the push.
I can understand that while pushing can lose many people, without taking out our objectives, kills are meaningless (as an Attacker) without taking out Omega. We could kill the entire other team and lose anyways without taking our objectives.
tl;dr Objectives > Kills
Keep up the good fight even if our decisions clash.

[sycocys]

A gate push shouldn't lose any more than 1 person pretty much ever if everyone goes, and that's only if you have a really dedicated bunch on the other side willing to take a bunch of fire to kill the lead man.

Pugs have been getting a lot better at it, and not shooting the lead guys backs out as well. XD

[Amsro]

Vin Reho, on 29 March 2015 - 02:25 AM, said:

Divine Retribution that's exactly what it's supposed to be like when things go right. Rushing for the gens alone won't do any good.

You can rush for the gens take em out and kill omega in one wave, 12 lights zerg ball. Not an easy thing to defend and truly a boring tactic.

I prefer to save the light for the last ditch effort to kill omega in a close match. Not often do I get to use my light mech.

[Tom Sawyer]

Voice Communication is key. Having to type out orders costs time and can result in disaster. But I agree on the silly lets kill the gens first garbage. You get less loyalty and C bills if you just derp rush.

Much more fun to drop with a solid team you trust. You learn how to work together, when to follow and when to lead.

Leave the gens for last or when things get really desperate. Sometimes you get 2 great 12 man vs 12 man battles where it comes down to the wire. You just know getting 48 kills before 30 minutes is not going to happen. So you make the final desperate push, everyone targets omega and its GREAT GAME.

[CruiseMissileCowboy]

Read what you wrote. The reason you are losing is because your team is not doing it correctly. Pushing for Gens at the start is usually done with a pack of light mechs all together, depending on the map, drop decks would have 2 lights and 2 assaults; 2 light rushes on gens, 1 to start at least - again it depends on the map. Your post says you have assaults and heavies getting left behind, you make it sound like your waves have mixed tonnage groups. If that is the case, that is why it's not working.

Vin Reho, on 29 March 2015 - 01:19 AM, said:

People foolishly rush for gens, losing a lot more mechs then the defenders. Then they think they got any chances to win when the game is at 21/34 or so.
They key is to push, but simultaneously get more kills and survive longer then the enemy does.
Every frikken time i'm on invasion attack my team decides to push suicideshly to the generators. Sure it gets the generator done, but in trade we lose ALWAYS more mechs then the defending team. AND it usually goes so that the push gets way too stretched leaving some assault, maybe heavies behind that get later picked out because they cant stand their ground anymore. Reinforcement wont even get to the gates by the time they are dead.
I mean literally WTF! This is so foolish, ******** tactic that I have ever seen in ANY game.

[White Bear 84]

How I feel when you give the command to push and everyone chickens out and melts...

[Lily from animove]

target of CW is to win the scenario, meaning generators and Omage have to go down, the number of kills on the defenders is irrelevant or secondary.

If you fail to win, then mostlikely because the rush was not made correctly.

[Widowmaker1981]

Lily from animove, on 31 March 2015 - 01:17 AM, said:

target of CW is to win the scenario, meaning generators and Omage have to go down, the number of kills on the defenders is irrelevant or secondary.

If you fail to win, then mostlikely because the rush was not made correctly.

I find the O-gens and Omega to be very easy to take down once all 48 defending mechs are dead, maybe thats just me.. They dont shoot at you, they are not priority targets unless you are going to run out of time.

[Varangian Blade]

Either tactic works really well as long as you bring the proper mechs at the proper time. If your first wave doesn't cut down the enemy's first two waves, you have to look at getting around the defenders to take out the objectives. Believe me, and we have videos to prove it, if you bring a proper first two waves as heavies and assaults, and you stick together using terrain to your advantage, you can mop up an enemy team with 1 1/2 waves. The 1/2 are those who make it back to reinforce. Save the lightest drops for last so you have two waves to drop gens and take omega.

The other tactic would be have everyone drop light first, take all gens down as an insurance policy, and do what you can for damage on omega. After that, come back going from your heaviest hitter down for farming. Once you're back down to your medium, go for the omega rush as a whole wave. The trick to making any of these work the most effectively is to actually travel in waves. Reinforcing can work if you're holding down an area just inside the gate and the enemy themselves are coming in one by one, but if your team pushes too far forward, your reinforcements will likely show up as the last of the first wave drops, leaving them all alone and soon to get involuntarily spooned by the defenders.

Of course there's the last tactic, which is kind of a meta approach. That is, when you see your first two waves get utterly annihilated, keep the frustration low and play it out to the end. Pay close attention to how the other team is taking your guys out. After that, brush it off and know that you just got out-skilled. Try to remember what you saw, what the enemy was using, and how they deployed it. Group up with those guys if you can, and share your ideas. Spend some time in your mech labs and build to counter what killed you. Learn from it, and allow yourself the flexibility to change for the next match.

Edited by Varangian Blade, 05 April 2015 - 08:59 AM.

[Texas Red IS]

I have seen something similar to what the OP saw, and I have seen the opposite... ...kind of. The difference was that the OPFOR was well coordinated. They hurled 3 waves of mostly heavy and assaults at us, losing all 36 in the process, to our 16. As we prepped for their next, and final, wave; we had high confidence. We had them 16 to 36, and some of us were still in our fist mechs!

But those first 3 waves had very deliberately taken out all the generators and all the turrets. The last, also well coordinated, wave was a light rush; under heavy ECM, and the only thing they had to kill to win was OMEGA. They made it look easy. Being way ahead on mech kills did not help us.

I think the lesson is that the better your plan, and your team coordination, the better your chance to win.

YMMV,

Tommy

Edited by Tommy Teas, 05 April 2015 - 02:55 PM.

[Troopie]

Vin Reho, on 29 March 2015 - 01:19 AM, said:

This suicide rushing tactic is disgusting to look at. Learn to kill and survive and maybe you will get some planets some day.

Maybe you need to take suicide attitude away from that tactic. Recently, I did see fight where one lance was sniping, so that rush went suicidal, because of that one lance.

So learn to kill when rushing.

[Klappspaten]

Troopie, on 28 April 2015 - 09:15 PM, said:

So learn to kill when rushing.

Word, a proper rush can be devastating.

[H I A S]

Slowpush to one enemy Dropzone for Spawncamping and kill all Defenders.
Tata, you have wo the Game.

[Troopie]

I did see plenty of "suicide"rush on Tukayyid. that went mostly well, still not so NA time...