Jump to content

Remember Mwo Before Ghost Heat?


62 replies to this topic

#41 Karl Streiger

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Wrath
  • Wrath
  • 20,369 posts
  • LocationBlack Dot in a Sea of Blue

Posted 30 March 2015 - 05:36 AM

View PostAlistair Winter, on 30 March 2015 - 05:29 AM, said:

I agree game balance is pretty good. Best its ever been? I don't know. Possibly. But in all seriousness, I do think it would have been better to change heat mechanics from the ground up, introduce more penalties for running hot, and nerf the best mechs in the game. Instead, PGI implemented extreme amounts of quirks to make every other mech match the holy trinity and thus lower TTK significantly.

Anyway, the OP was meant primarily as satire. And satire shouldn't always be taken so seriously.


well - before heat penalty we may need something that could be called heat - most IS Mechs don't know what you are talking about ;) - heat? There is something like heat in this game? This red bar - thought its the damage meter on the enemy mech - always wonder why it doesn't work - the enemy mech dies before it reach 100% :P

ok about the last

#42 Jetfire

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Legendary Founder
  • Legendary Founder
  • 1,746 posts
  • LocationMinneapolis, MN

Posted 30 March 2015 - 05:40 AM

View PostAlistair Winter, on 29 March 2015 - 04:18 PM, said:

People would use ridiculous builds like Stalkers with 6 large lasers. If we had the Thunderbolt back then, I guess people would have put 6-7 medium pulse lasers on it. Can you imagine? Or put 4-6 large pulse lasers on an assault mech!

Thank God we don't see crazy builds like that anymore. Finally things are working as intended.


All I remember is infinite gauss and PPC spam fest poptarts. Today is better by far, some crazy unique builds is far better than everything boiling down to two weapons, heat sinks and JJ's.

View Postkeith, on 30 March 2015 - 05:33 AM, said:

lets be honest about something. ghost heat balanced the 8v8 meta, once 12v12 came out anything ghost heat did was null and void. there was now 50% more fire power on the field. ghost heat purpose was to limit alpha strikes per say. once u have more mechs on the field the amount of damage that can be applied to a mech at once is increased. now i'm not for increasing ghost heat, just something else should be done.


Real heat penalty system... yeah we need it.

#43 Nightmare1

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 7,636 posts
  • Twitch: Link
  • LocationPeeking over your shoulder while eating your cookies.

Posted 30 March 2015 - 05:50 AM

I miss the days of zero Ghost Heat.

It's encouraging to see it removed from AC/2s and LLs. Maybe we'll see more favorable actions like that in the near future.

#44 DjPush

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Overlord
  • Overlord
  • 1,964 posts

Posted 30 March 2015 - 08:54 AM

View PostTelmasa, on 29 March 2015 - 05:59 PM, said:


Are you joking?

What do you see in CW?

- Thunderbolts, all MPL, LL, or LPL
- ECM lights w/ jumpjets
- IS mechs with max quirks with nothing *but* the quirked weapon
- Clan "metamech" copycat Timberwolves and Stormcrows, with the odd Vulture and Hellbringer thrown in.

There's anything BUT variety, unless you think the 5-8 IS mechs with "superquirks" count as variety.


I actually have pugs laugh at me for taking a Timberwolf that has 4ERML+3MG+2LRM15as, a Warhawk with 4ERLL&2SSRM6, a Nova with two ERPPC & 4xMGs, and a Kitfox with 3MPL+2MG - even though the majority of the time I'm the top 3 in score (however you measure it). *That* is a symptom of how little variety in the game there really is.

I'm all for removing weapon-buffing quirks and moving to 'iterative' quirks instead.


No. Not joking. Because I don't play the game mode filled with people who are the cause of Nerf-ocolypse.

#45 stjobe

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Legendary Founder
  • Legendary Founder
  • 9,498 posts
  • LocationOn your six, chipping away at your rear armour.

Posted 30 March 2015 - 10:15 AM

If we could just get a proper heat penalty system, Ghost Heat wouldn't be necessary.

By proper heat penalty system, I mean a BattleTech-style system that includes
* Movement penalties (top speed reductions, torso twist speed reductions, arm speed reductions)
* Aiming penalties (reticule shake, HUD flickering)
* Shutdowns that need to be overridden (at e.g. 80% and 90% heat)

And that starts way, way before 100% heat. Like somewhere between 30-50%.

The penalties should be minor at first but grow increasingly worse as you near 100% heat.
At 100% heat you shut down, no override. You do not want to go to 100% heat.

If you have an alpha that takes you to 95% heat, you should be able to fire it, but there should be heat warnings going off, and your 'mech should be rather hard to use properly for the next several (tens of) seconds.

In order to make such a system work, we would likely have to fiddle with the heat cap and (more importantly) dissipation rates.

And no, I don't believe we'll ever see it either - more's the pity.

#46 KraftySOT

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The 1 Percent
  • 3,617 posts

Posted 30 March 2015 - 10:19 AM

Yup. The solution was a heat scale. Not ghost heat.

#47 LORD TSARKON

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Urban Commando
  • Urban Commando
  • 776 posts
  • LocationButtmunch City

Posted 30 March 2015 - 05:07 PM

I did not mind the 6 PPC stalker.... even before ghost heat it was still pretty hot.... plus 8 vs 8 you did not see as many as you would see today if it were possible... plus 8 vs 8 seemed like you were more important to the team...

It was the Highlander PPC+ Gauss Poptarting that really killed the game for me.... I would take a Lance of 6 PPC Stalkers over 1 of those poptarting instant kill mofos any day of the week...

Its too bad Jump Jets had to be nerfed to the ground (literally) because of that Meta...

For Every PGI fix or balance... it causes 2 more problems it seems

#48 XX Sulla XX

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 3,094 posts

Posted 30 March 2015 - 05:20 PM

Quote

It was better before quirks - maybe not better - different we had few Top chassis + a imbalanced Comparison IS vs Clan - caused by the "Tier 1 Clan Mechs" - same is current: Imbalanced caused by Tier 1 - and few IS Top Chassis - caused by Quirks.
The quirks have been great. The give people a reason to always keep mechs. They mean they can make a mech that is worthless worth playing. Quirks are one of the best things they have done.

Quote

To much stacking - you can't increase DPS and Range - both values should be indirect proportional (more DPS - less range)
You can't increase Range and reduce Heat - both values should be proportional (more range - more heat)

OK lets compare the current Stalker 4N with a Stalker featuring 6 Large Laser - before GhostHeat:
The current Stalker produces more heat - but with shorter beam duration and more range - its a "fair" trade off.
In other words the current Stalker 4N would have been perfectly balanced - before Sommer 2013.

Well at least without GhostHeat - most current builds would not get "worser" - because their limit is allready reached.
You can increase what ever is needed to make an unviable mech viable. In the end its all just made up numbers.

#49 Burktross

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • 3,663 posts
  • LocationStill in closed beta

Posted 30 March 2015 - 06:30 PM

View PostRhaythe, on 30 March 2015 - 04:35 AM, said:

In other news, gamers are gamers, and will min/max any system in place to their best advantage in order to win.

(+1 for snark, OP)

qft!

#50 Slepnir

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 723 posts
  • Locationyelm washington

Posted 30 March 2015 - 07:32 PM

stjobe, yes the solution is that simple-

the 30 point heat scale, including decreased speed, increased HUD fuzz, and progressivly more dangerous shut down and ammo explosion chance as you get hotter.


It would allow DHSs to be 2.0, people would still have full customization, boating would be controlled by the heat scale, and even stock mechs would be viable.

#51 Anjian

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 2
  • FP Veteran - Beta 2
  • 3,735 posts

Posted 30 March 2015 - 11:34 PM

I still miss all the PPC splat kills in your face I made from my Cataphracts and my Stalker. Slicing up people with my laser vomits Hellbringer and Timberwolves doesn't feel the same.

I remembered MWO got boring for me after Ghost Heat and I started playing Final Fantasy 14 A Realm Reborn after that.

#52 Widowmaker1981

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Widow Maker
  • The Widow Maker
  • 5,030 posts
  • LocationAt the other end of the pretty lights.

Posted 31 March 2015 - 02:59 AM

View PostSlepnir, on 30 March 2015 - 07:32 PM, said:

stjobe, yes the solution is that simple-

the 30 point heat scale, including decreased speed, increased HUD fuzz, and progressivly more dangerous shut down and ammo explosion chance as you get hotter.


It would allow DHSs to be 2.0, people would still have full customization, boating would be controlled by the heat scale, and even stock mechs would be viable.


Oh i can see all the delicious carnage that would result in energy mechs being unable to fire enough weapons at the quad AC crab blasting them to pieces to make it care or stop shooting. Discussions about giganerfing the heatcap dont seem to realise that AC5s and Gauss Rifles completely ignore heat generation, and would just become the meta (as they were before Clans and Quirks).

#53 LordMelvin

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Urban Commando
  • Urban Commando
  • 567 posts

Posted 31 March 2015 - 05:39 AM

View PostWidowmaker1981, on 31 March 2015 - 02:59 AM, said:


Oh i can see all the delicious carnage that would result in energy mechs being unable to fire enough weapons at the quad AC crab blasting them to pieces to make it care or stop shooting. Discussions about giganerfing the heatcap dont seem to realise that AC5s and Gauss Rifles completely ignore heat generation, and would just become the meta (as they were before Clans and Quirks).

If you are facetanking AC5s long enough to die you are standing still too long. And Gauss Rifles shouldn't be included in any discussion regarding heat mechanics since they don't apply.

Under the proposed system mechs would cool faster, which would allow laser mechs to fire more often. So while AC mechs could blast away with relative abandon, they are ultimately constrained by the amount of ammo they can bring. Laser mechs would be under no such restriction, but would need to pace their fire to avoid overheating.

If the denizens of mount tryhard read that as "bring back the AC/Gauss spam then fine". Nothing is stopping them from doing it now.

#54 Tahribator

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Fire
  • Fire
  • 1,565 posts

Posted 31 March 2015 - 05:42 AM

View PostAlistair Winter, on 29 March 2015 - 04:18 PM, said:

People would use ridiculous builds like Stalkers with 6 large lasers. If we had the Thunderbolt back then, I guess people would have put 6-7 medium pulse lasers on it. Can you imagine? Or put 4-6 large pulse lasers on an assault mech!

Thank God we don't see crazy builds like that anymore. Finally things are working as intended.



The MPL never had ghost heat.

The difference with the laser drill Stalkers is that Stalkers used to ALPHA 6xLLs all the time. Now they have to chain 3xLL two times in order to do it, which makes it harder to focus damage. It makes a lot of difference when you're hit for 54 damage in 1 seconds compared to 54 damage in 1.5-2 seconds.

Edited by Tahribator, 31 March 2015 - 05:43 AM.


#55 CyclonerM

    Tina's Warrior

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 2
  • FP Veteran - Beta 2
  • 5,684 posts
  • LocationA 2nd Wolf Guards Grenadiers JumpShip

Posted 31 March 2015 - 05:48 AM

View PostDjPush, on 29 March 2015 - 04:56 PM, said:

No you see a lot more variety and not just one or two mechs with the same load out.

Not sure if sarcasm or no :unsure:

#56 Widowmaker1981

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Widow Maker
  • The Widow Maker
  • 5,030 posts
  • LocationAt the other end of the pretty lights.

Posted 31 March 2015 - 06:46 AM

View PostLordMelvin, on 31 March 2015 - 05:39 AM, said:

Gauss Rifles shouldn't be included in any discussion regarding heat mechanics since they don't apply.



What? Since heat mechanics dont apply to Gauss Rifles (or AC5s in any meaningful way) you ABSOLUTELY have to think about them when talking about changing the heat mechanics - as if you make heat harsher you effectively buff these weapons since they are the only weapons not being nerfed.

With a 30 point heat cap like is being described AC5 boats and Gauss carriers would rule the land, and mechs without ballistic hardpoints would return to the scrapheap they were dug up from when quirks were introduced (before Clans and the subsequent quirkening made energy boats viable it WAS multi AC5/Gauss online)

#57 Mechteric

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Overlord
  • Overlord
  • 7,308 posts
  • LocationRTP, NC

Posted 31 March 2015 - 06:54 AM

You know what has also come out since ghost heat?


Taking damage when over 100% heat.

Also PPC and heat generation in general went way up. But heat dissipation hasn't really improved.

#58 Metus regem

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Sureshot
  • The Sureshot
  • 10,282 posts
  • LocationNAIS College of Military Science OCS courses

Posted 31 March 2015 - 06:59 AM

Posted Image

Dog dangit I just fixed the stupid things again....

#59 Karl Streiger

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Wrath
  • Wrath
  • 20,369 posts
  • LocationBlack Dot in a Sea of Blue

Posted 31 March 2015 - 07:01 AM

View PostCapperDeluxe, on 31 March 2015 - 06:54 AM, said:

You know what has also come out since ghost heat?


Taking damage when over 100% heat.

Also PPC and heat generation in general went way up. But heat dissipation hasn't really improved.

Afaik -damage occured later - at first it was damage at 150% heat, they turned it towards 110% and finally 100%.... really stupid to have a shutdown to prevent damage - and still got damage.

#60 stjobe

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Legendary Founder
  • Legendary Founder
  • 9,498 posts
  • LocationOn your six, chipping away at your rear armour.

Posted 31 March 2015 - 08:48 AM

View PostCapperDeluxe, on 31 March 2015 - 06:54 AM, said:

You know what has also come out since ghost heat?

Taking damage when over 100% heat.

Not true.

Taking damage from heat (at 120%) was introduced in the July 2nd, 2013 patch.
The heat scale (a.k.a. Ghost Heat) was introduced in the July 16th, 2013 patch.

View PostCapperDeluxe, on 31 March 2015 - 06:54 AM, said:

Also PPC and heat generation in general went way up. But heat dissipation hasn't really improved.

The whole heat system - including dissipation - needs to be redone from the ground up.

Edited by stjobe, 31 March 2015 - 08:49 AM.






1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users