Gotta agree with the points made here. It's nuclear reactor blue across the board for IS now. The problem is that some of the mechs get range quirks to equal the range of the Clans (or nearly), but that only leads to those mechs being preferred over all others. I think reducing the range quirks would be reasonable, but keep the ghost heat where it is. IS again stays better in the brawl. The only issue is that the Clan ERMed is so far superior if the range on IS Larges gets nerfed. Clan ERMed is essentially an unquirked IS LL. The IS Larges and ER Larges should fill gaps between the Clan ERMed and Clan ERLarge, in my opinion. Right now, they kind of do, but quirked IS ERLL are too close to their clan counterparts in range.
I still think for balance they should reduce CEMRL beamduration and decrease damage and heat by 1. Those lasers are too egdy to the IS LL's and the "buffed" ISLL's are kinda weird in what they turn out, they got a boit overquirked in the attemp to balance them.
Or we finally need a damn heatscale cap, so that people can't alphaspam anymore. As logn as there are mechs able to have 6 LL while others only cna have 2 LL this entire alphavomit spam thing is a huge imbalancing factor.
Deal! But first Ghost Heat CERML to 2 and CLPL to 1. Then put CERML and CLPL in the same linked penalty group and Ghost Heat it to 3 so that only 2xCERML+1xCLPL combo is allowed for a total of 27 damage, just like 3xISLL, oh wait you want to reduce that to 2...
And Another Clan Player has Spoken about Reducing IS Weapons Efficiency .......again
You have to understand, most clan player I talk to don't want to just be "OP". The average active group player, or "premade" wants a good, even fight. But there are some builds that are simply just insane right now for IS. Run a stalker 4n. Run those 6 LL. Please.
That's the only way it will get any attention from this developer.
I've had enough scotch to say,
The current quirk/balance strategy is absolute BS. Please don't point at "oh higher tonnage" or "clan XL engines are OP" (not meaning to generalize yourself). The key is to watch what the high level IS CW groups run, and it is a high number of 6 LL stalker. It's a goddamn disco ball.
They do more damage per second of facetime than anything clan can run. It's that simple and it's really important. In MW the damage you do per match is directly related to the damage per second of facetime you have. It's really simple. Pop out, kill, fade.
Hence, the complaining. IS should take full advantage of their ballistics. I do, and it works GREAT. Clan should have energy weapons, but for an "OP" clanner to face a mech that can have superior LRM, superior ballistic, AND superior energy is just idiotic. BUT at least paul inoyue has a job, so he has that going for him.
Deal! But first Ghost Heat CERML to 2 and CLPL to 1. Then put CERML and CLPL in the same linked penalty group and Ghost Heat it to 3 so that only 2xCERML+1xCLPL combo is allowed for a total of 27 damage, just like 3xISLL, oh wait you want to reduce that to 2...
Yes. OK. That makes complete sense.
Of course also link IS MLs, LLs and LPLs with MPLs, SLs and SPLs, and add ghost heat caps to those as well.
no?
Disclaimer: i dont think IS LLs having a ghost heat cap of 3 is a problem, been saying they should do that for ages. They should also buff all PPC velocity by 40%, get rid of PPC velocity quirks and change the IS ERPPC to 12 or 13 heat but hey, what do i know, maybe PPCs SHOULD be limited to Awesomes, Thud-9S and Panthers only...
You have to understand, most clan player I talk to don't want to just be "OP". The average active group player, or "premade" wants a good, even fight. But there are some builds that are simply just insane right now for IS. Run a stalker 4n. Run those 6 LL. Please.
That's the only way it will get any attention from this developer.
I've had enough scotch to say,
The current quirk/balance strategy is absolute BS. Please don't point at "oh higher tonnage" or "clan XL engines are OP" (not meaning to generalize yourself). The key is to watch what the high level IS CW groups run, and it is a high number of 6 LL stalker. It's a goddamn disco ball.
They do more damage per second of facetime than anything clan can run. It's that simple and it's really important. In MW the damage you do per match is directly related to the damage per second of facetime you have. It's really simple. Pop out, kill, fade.
Hence, the complaining. IS should take full advantage of their ballistics. I do, and it works GREAT. Clan should have energy weapons, but for an "OP" clanner to face a mech that can have superior LRM, superior ballistic, AND superior energy is just idiotic. BUT at least paul inoyue has a job, so he has that going for him.
The reason why IS LL spam is so prevalent in CW: no ammo, clan rarely press overheated mechs, and the only energy IS has that compete with clan energy, and clan engagement ranges, is LL and ERLL.
Btw, a Direwolf, Timberwolf, Hellbringer, or even a Stormcrow can out-DPS a stalker (per second of beam) when neither incurs ghost heat. A dire wolf can do it without incurring ghost heat, and outdo a stalker firing all 6.
The main advantage of the stalker? Better cooling than the mediums/heavy, more maneuverable than the dire, and better profile than any of the above. Give the clans a decent 80-90ton assault and suddenly it's just a profile advantage.
Leeroy Mechkins, on 31 March 2015 - 12:38 AM, said:
Clan whining is in the wrong place.
Go whine to get Warhawk and Gargoyle further improved, not that LLs are made worse.
And the Nova, And the KitFox, and the Adder, And the Ice Ferret, And the Dire Wolf (just slight buffs) and the Summoner, and The Mad Dog, And the Myst Lynx..
ok facts on the table.
If we would disable all weapon specific quirks - and turn every quirk into a general Energy "Quirk" - the IS LL would be one of the weapon that would die.
So the quirks on the LL are the only stuff that keep it alive - with LPL dealing same heat and much more damage in a shorter burn its the better choice at short -medium ranges. While the ERLL for only 1 additional heat gives you much more range - even with the drawback of 0.25sec its worth for ranges that are not optimal for the LPL
Well i don't think its a good idea to quirk a weapon on specific chassis to make it worth - heck even imbalanced - while on other chassis the LL still suck.
Do you not comprehend that 4x CERMLAS basically does exactly what 15 tons of LLAS does at around the same range?
Or how 2x CLPLs does what 3x LLAS does for 12 tons instead of 15 tons and at +150m?
We can put ghost heat back on IS LLAS when we start slapping Ghost Heat all over clan lasers.
I mean does that sound like what you want? Ghost Heat on the 5th Cermlas? Ghost Heat on the 2nd CLPL? Link those two weapons for Ghost Heat?
I really don't want to see that happen, but people need to stop posting silly crap.
Please take like 10 minutes out of your day to do some grade school math before suggesting nerfs for a weapon like 5 ton LLAS.
There's two main groups doing the QQ'ing here. The first would need weeks of tutoring to understand the grade school math required. As bad as dumb people are, they at least believe what they are saying and just don't get it. The second group is worse. Far worse.
The second group is fully aware of the advantages they hold but are cynically playing off the dumb peoples cries to preserve a current advantage. They have absolutely no interest in a balanced game, only self interest.
Elizander, on 30 March 2015 - 11:02 PM, said:
Ghost heat for LL won't matter in real comp play where you macro 2 LL x3 0.5x seconds apart.
The only weapon in the game that might benefit from macros would be UACs to reduce jam chances. Using a macro for firing weapon groups a fraction of a second apart or for the gauss charge mechanic is more a hindrance to a good player than it is a benefit.
On a serious note. I've watched people around here stoop pretty low to maintain an advantage their chosen side or play style might have and have become pretty accustomed to their nonsensical contortions of logic. But guys shamelessly calling ghost heat changes and the LL overpowered had me mildly surprised for an instant, only because I had momentarily forgotten the kind of community I'm playing with.
Edited by TB Freelancer, 31 March 2015 - 04:29 AM.
I know someone else mentioned it, but I'm still confused where the complaint lies. Before the quirks and ghost heat buffs everything was PPC/Gauss or some mixture of ACs. Now lasers are viable across multiple mechs and people are whining again.
I prefer the current "meta" since lasers allow for more counter play (twisting to roll damage, pushing while beams are cooling, etc) than "oops, I dropped my mouse and one-clicked anything lighter than an assault off the field in one volley".
Personally, i think that the current IS Large laser ghost heat being set at 3 is fine. However, and people wont agree because any mention of any buff to clans is met with snorting derision, i think the C-ERLL (NOT the C-LPL) should also be set to 3 to allow it in some way to compete with the C-LPL as a build choice.
With 3 on C-ERLL and 2 on C-LPL you get the following comparision:
Looking at this comparison it would be fairly balanced with C-ERLL set at 3 for ghost heat: the weapon system would do ~25% more dmg at ~25% more range for the cost of 50% more heat and ~33% longer burn time. As it stands its nearly 100% more heat, and that means that anyone with 12 tons to spare always, without exception, takes 2xLPLs over 3xERLLs, and thats not right imo.
Edit: added bonus comparison to show 3xCERLL wouldnt be OP:
2xC-LPL+1xC-ERML: (13 tons, 5 slots, 3 hardpoints)
Damage: 31.5 (adjusted for ERML dmg loss at 600m)
Heat: 26
Range: 600
Duration: 1.15
Its nearly the same damage (100% the same within 400m) at better heat efficency and 25% less duration using the same hardpoints as the 3xC-ERLL, and we can do it already.
Edited by Widowmaker1981, 31 March 2015 - 05:29 AM.
Widowmaker1981, on 31 March 2015 - 05:19 AM, said:
Personally, i think that the current IS Large laser ghost heat being set at 3 is fine. However, and people wont agree because any mention of any buff to clans is met with snorting derision, i think the C-ERLL (NOT the C-LPL) should also be set to 3 to allow it in some way to compete with the C-LPL as a build choice.
With 3 on C-ERLL and 2 on C-LPL you get the following comparision:
Looking at this comparison it would be fairly balanced with C-ERLL set at 3 for ghost heat: the weapon system would do ~25% more dmg at ~25% more range for the cost of 50% more heat and ~33% longer burn time. As it stands its nearly 100% more heat, and that means that anyone with 12 tons to spare always, without exception, takes 2xLPLs over 3xERLLs, and thats not right imo.
Edit: added bonus comparison to show 3xCERLL wouldnt be OP:
2xC-LPL+1xC-ERML: (13 tons, 5 slots, 3 hardpoints)
Damage: 31.5 (adjusted for ERML dmg loss at 600m)
Heat: 26
Range: 600
Duration: 1.15
Its nearly the same damage (100% the same within 400m) at better heat efficency and 25% less duration using the same hardpoints as the 3xC-ERLL, and we can do it already.
I can get behind the C-ERLL being ghost heat limited at 3. Its a shite weapon save for a few instances anyways.
As noted above somewhere. please build a 6LL Mech and play it, outside of CW. Word is that CW is the Hard Core mode. Are we hearing whines about "play" in the Hard Core Arena now? Really. Wowzers.
So build a 6LL Stalker and get Mordor and see how you make out. It will be about the same as the 6 PPC Stalker of old. Cute and hilarious but brutally useless when you really need to return fire more than every 20 GD seconds.
Widowmaker1981, on 31 March 2015 - 05:19 AM, said:
Personally, i think that the current IS Large laser ghost heat being set at 3 is fine. However, and people wont agree because any mention of any buff to clans is met with snorting derision, i think the C-ERLL (NOT the C-LPL) should also be set to 3 to allow it in some way to compete with the C-LPL as a build choice.
With 3 on C-ERLL and 2 on C-LPL you get the following comparision:
Looking at this comparison it would be fairly balanced with C-ERLL set at 3 for ghost heat: the weapon system would do ~25% more dmg at ~25% more range for the cost of 50% more heat and ~33% longer burn time. As it stands its nearly 100% more heat, and that means that anyone with 12 tons to spare always, without exception, takes 2xLPLs over 3xERLLs, and thats not right imo.
Edit: added bonus comparison to show 3xCERLL wouldnt be OP:
2xC-LPL+1xC-ERML: (13 tons, 5 slots, 3 hardpoints)
Damage: 31.5 (adjusted for ERML dmg loss at 600m)
Heat: 26
Range: 600
Duration: 1.15
Its nearly the same damage (100% the same within 400m) at better heat efficency and 25% less duration using the same hardpoints as the 3xC-ERLL, and we can do it already.
I wouldn't use it even then, 1.5 sec burn time is simply too much.
Widowmaker1981, on 31 March 2015 - 05:19 AM, said:
Looking at this comparison it would be fairly balanced with C-ERLL set at 3 for ghost heat: the weapon system would do ~25% more dmg at ~25% more range for the cost of 50% more heat and ~33% longer burn time. As it stands its nearly 100% more heat, and that means that anyone with 12 tons to spare always, without exception, takes 2xLPLs over 3xERLLs, and thats not right imo.
Unfortunately this just can't happen.
I know it doesn't seem like it in the solo queue, or even at times in the public team queue, but the CERLLAS is already exceptionally powerful.
If you want to see the power of the CERLLAS harnessed, you can watch the alpine match with QQ vs. Clan Kodiak in the recent RHoD match they had (great matches by the way).
You'll notice QQs Hellbringers letting loose Quadruple CERLLAS alphas all the way out to 900m with very low damage drop off.
The CERLLAS is the weapon of choice for long range engagements, that's typically tournaments and CW or players who simply like long range in the solo queue.
It needs to be less efficient heatwise, because it's ridiculously light, it only takes up ONE crit slot and the base range + mod = 814m.
The only drawback is the long beam duration at 1.5s, what that does primarily is make it very inefficient at close range and allow for spread.
However, if you compare it to the IS ER LLAS at 1.25s though, for what you get from the weapon it's overall still clearly superior.
3x IS ERLLAS
15 Tons
6 Crit Slots (can't be mounted in heads)
27 damage
24 heat
1.125 damage per heat
1.25s beam duration
675m range, 740m with module
2x CERLLAS
8 Tons
2 Crit Slots (can be mounted in heads, ex: SCR, HBR, DWF)
22 damage
20 heat
1.1 damage per heat
1.5s beam duration
740m range, 814m with module
The IS ERLLAS is slightly (barely noticable) more efficient damage per heat (+2.3% more efficient damage per heat).
They have a better alpha by 5 points, and a shorter burn time.
The CERLLAS weigh nearly HALF, and take up ONE THIRD of the Crit slots.
They have the ability to be mounted in heads (very useful).
Have an additional 10% range after factoring modules.
Now if you wanted to go nuts, and build a highly specialized build the way people do for tournaments & CW, you can spend 16 tons vs. the IS 15 tons and get FOUR CERLLAS, or you can still stay under weight at 12 tons and get 3 of them in 3 crit slots...
I think these are the right matches, I can't check fully because I'm at work.
I wouldn't use it even then, 1.5 sec burn time is simply too much.
If it were too much, competitive players would never use it - but they do.
What you mean is that it's too much for you.
A lot of players grew accustomed to always taking the IS ERLLAS over the IS LLAS because it was a no brainer, and free extra range for a barely noticable heat bump.
Now at 1.25s burn time, there is at least a distinction. You chose the ER LLAS when you REALLY want that extra range, and not all the time.
The same goes for the CERLLAS. It is a highly specialized weapon, you take it when you are specializing your build for long range.
You don't just take it all the time, as people did, because it's 2 tons lighter than a CLPL with more range.
5
Dino Might, on 30 March 2015 - 06:12 PM, said:
