32 replies to this topic

[Hans Von Lohman]

I can't recommend ever getting FF armor for any reason other than if you have a light mech or certain other designs that can fit it in. Endo Steel is always better.

Should Inner Sphere mechs now be allowed to fit Clan 7 slot Ferro Fiberous Armor for a fairly expensive cost while also allowing cheaper 14 slot Inner Sphere armor?

For Clan Mechs they already get 7 slot FF armor, which is fixed slots on a mech. You can't change it and expect to keep the game balance of where critical spaces are open or closed. You could accidentally buff some mechs like the Timberwolf or Stormcrow who don't need a buff.

Honestly, I ask because FF vs Endo is such a no brainer on IS mechs that 7 slot FF vs 14 slot Endo is actually the same ratio of space vs weigh savings on a mech.

Lore wise Inner Sphere guys were looting and repairing clan mechs for their own use, or even clan weaponry, but in MWO that would also mess with the balance.

However, I think we could get away with allowing just Clan FF armor as the one exception, both to make FF armor viable, use lore as a reason why (salvage/copied design at great cost), and to give the IS mechs a bit more benefit compared to Clans.

Clans are still better than IS. Not by much, but I think they are and Clan FF armor alone might be a small enough buff to IS mechs to help balance that.

Edited by Hans Von Lohman, 31 March 2015 - 09:46 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Cost rarely is an effective balancer.

Also, where, fluff speaking would the IS be getting it? The salvage would not only be taken off shot up dead Clanners, but is shaped and designed for the individual mech. You don't just swap tiles, especially on something with as many odd angles as a mech.

[Hans Von Lohman]

Sorry, neither of those two arguments really mater in the long run. We're mostly talking about game balance.

Fluff gets added to that to explain why, and I actually can think of lore/fluff reasons for this.

But, to re-state it again, that is beside the point. The main thing is to give the IS mechs a reason to use FF armor, and I originally was just going to suggest reducing IS FF armor to be only 8 or 9 critical slots, and then just chose the more lore friendly option of using Clan FF armor on IS mechs.

[Pjwned]

Just make Ferro Fibrous armor increase the max amount of armor on a mech, bam now it doesn't suck for any IS mech over 35 tons and it doesn't suck for clan mechs that are stuck with it instead of Endo Steel structure.

[Deathlike]

Well, I know Mixtech was done in MW2 Mercs and MW3 for a bit.

The problem is that it completely invalidates the purpose of IS FF (literally, it's a form of powercreep or at least planned obsolescence).

I wouldn't mind it being available for mechs 25 tons and under... it's not like it's going to make subpar Lights OP. This would allow them to run better poordub DHS engines across the board.

Edited by Deathlike, 31 March 2015 - 11:46 PM.

[Hans Von Lohman]

Pjwned, on 31 March 2015 - 10:49 PM, said:

Just make Ferro Fibrous armor increase the max amount of armor on a mech, bam now it doesn't suck for any IS mech over 35 tons and it doesn't suck for clan mechs that are stuck with it instead of Endo Steel structure.

I had thought of this myself, and it could be a good idea.

Simply put it could also be re-stated that FF armor grants a 10% or 15% damage reduction quirk to your mech?

Again, I am not sure if we want to do that for the Clans, though. They are already more powerful. That would make the already powerful Timberwolf and Stormcrow even better.

So, I again go back to the idea of allowing Clan FF armor to be used on IS mechs.

[A Large Infant]

Clan crybabies don't want the IS to have their stuff, otherwise easy mode might come to an end. It would quickly balance a lot of mechs if they could use Clan technology and I bet a lot of Dakka Wolves would love to have IS autocannons.

[Pjwned]

Hans Von Lohman, on 31 March 2015 - 11:54 PM, said:

I had thought of this myself, and it could be a good idea.

Simply put it could also be re-stated that FF armor grants a 10% or 15% damage reduction quirk to your mech?

Increased armor cap is different from damage reduction, and damage reduction would likely be too good.

Quote

Again, I am not sure if we want to do that for the Clans, though. They are already more powerful. That would make the already powerful Timberwolf and Stormcrow even better.

So, I again go back to the idea of allowing Clan FF armor to be used on IS mechs.

If there are concerns of stacking benefits with Endo Steel structure saving weight and Ferro Fibrous armor increasing armor capacity then it could be made so that Ferro Fibrous armor increases armor capacity when installed on Standard Structure and not Endo Steel, and if Endo Steel was present then it would function as it does now by simply reducing tonnage a bit.

I don't really see 2 mechs as a reason to not make mech upgrades more balanced though, just like how those 2 mechs are not the only reason that an extra penalty for clan XL engines is being considered.

[charov]

Meeso Thorny, on 31 March 2015 - 11:58 PM, said:

Clan crybabies don't want the IS to have their stuff, otherwise easy mode might come to an end. It would quickly balance a lot of mechs if they could use Clan technology and I bet a lot of Dakka Wolves would love to have IS autocannons.

I love silly noobs that probably don't even know the existence of the MWO clock

[Hans Von Lohman]

Pjwned, on 01 April 2015 - 12:07 AM, said:

Increased armor cap is different from damage reduction, and damage reduction would likely be too good.



If there are concerns of stacking benefits with Endo Steel structure saving weight and Ferro Fibrous armor increasing armor capacity then it could be made so that Ferro Fibrous armor increases armor capacity when installed on Standard Structure and not Endo Steel, and if Endo Steel was present then it would function as it does now by simply reducing tonnage a bit.

I don't really see 2 mechs as a reason to not make mech upgrades more balanced though, just like how those 2 mechs are not the only reason that an extra penalty for clan XL engines is being considered.

I see your point. On second thought if you increase the max potential armor point values with FF armor, but then have to use more tonnage to actually get that advantage, you null out your weight savings. A 15% damage reduction quirk would do the same, but also give you a ton or two to use for other things, which is a bigger buff than just upping the armor point limit.

Right now I think FF armor either needs a lower space penalty, or like you said a higher armor value.

[MikeBend]

FF armor can be left as is, but add some minor armor quirk to every component, like i dunno - 10-15% maybe? So the choice between endo and ferro isnt as obvious as before. And jus maybe, decrease IS FF to 10-12 crit slots?

Edit: Totally what Hans says!

Edited by MikeBend, 01 April 2015 - 12:24 AM.

[Tedarin]

Make FF armor more shiny and reflective. That'll counter the current laser vomit.

[Peter2k]

Hans Von Lohman, on 01 April 2015 - 12:15 AM, said:

I see your point. On second thought if you increase the max potential armor point values with FF armor, but then have to use more tonnage to actually get that advantage, you null out your weight savings.

But you can put more armor points on you're mech, don't see a drawback there

I'd be careful with quirks, star lower and correct up if there's need

Also there might be equipment that's never gonna be really good
If we had reflective armor I'd take it over FF any day


Why not make it a placable piece (or set pieces) of equipment that you can move around and it gives +10% armor on the part you put it on (like arm or side torso)

Tedarin, on 01 April 2015 - 12:27 AM, said:

Make FF armor more shiny and reflective. That'll counter the current laser vomit.

That's a different tech altogether
Though could be put into place as a quirk I guess

[Tarogato]

Hans, what kind of mushrooms are you on and where can I find some?

Innersphere doesn't need Clan FF.

• Power creep
  
• Lore-breaking (Innersphere hasn't utilised Clan tech at this point in the timeline, 3050-3052)
  
• Doesn't make sense. (armour is fitted to the mechs. This means IS would have to reverse-engineer the armour, they couldn't just salvage it)
  
• Confusing to new players ("why can my mech has clan armour but not weapons or structure? wtf is this shjt?")
  
• Innersphere doesn't need the extra buff, they're balanced reasonably fine as it is.

Tedarin, on 01 April 2015 - 12:27 AM, said:

Make FF armor more shiny and reflective. That'll counter the current laser vomit.

It's called Laser-Reflective Armour and it wasn't used until 3060's... by the Clans. It remained experimental tech until Jihad-era, and MWO will never... ever... incorporate anything from Jihad era.

Edited by Tarogato, 01 April 2015 - 02:16 AM.

[A Large Infant]

red devil2, on 01 April 2015 - 12:13 AM, said:

I love silly noobs that probably don't even know the existence of the MWO clock

LOL@ claims of clock consistency in MWO. I guess the year 3050 lasted about 60 months

[Elizander]

Nope. No one is forced to use Ferro unlike clans who are locked into it. If it sucks for your specific build, don't equip it.

[Sable]

No mixed tech in my opinion. But I do favor FF allowing higher armor cap or additional damage reduction. It would provide some incentive to either go with extra tonnage with endo for more weapons and equipment of more tankiness for survivability.

[DONTOR]

I'm totally for this, lets also give Clan mechs effective AC weaponry while were swapping useable tech around.

Edited by DONTOR, 01 April 2015 - 09:53 AM.

[cSand]

http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

[Metus regem]

Bishop Steiner, on 31 March 2015 - 09:55 PM, said:

Cost rarely is an effective balancer.

Also, where, fluff speaking would the IS be getting it? The salvage would not only be taken off shot up dead Clanners, but is shaped and designed for the individual mech. You don't just swap tiles, especially on something with as many odd angles as a mech.

Not to mention the houses, FedCom, Draconis Combine and a few others re more or less taking that salvage from mercs at gun-point... And if a House unit beat a clan unit, well that salvage went right to R&D of the House.... so not really something we line troops or mercs would be seeing....