31 replies to this topic

[Aresye]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 01 April 2015 - 07:56 PM, said:

You also need to look at the burntime of the laser, Clan ER-LL is 1.5s (and we have no quirks to actually decrease this) vs IS LL at 1.0s or IS ER-LL at 1.25s (with multitudes of mechs that have quirks to decrease that duration).

In the world of HSR, burn time is everything. Many of the most efficient IS loadouts have some of the shortest laser burn times thanks to quirks, and it makes all the difference when it comes to poking.

The longer burn time also increases the skill cap, which is part of the reason why I feel so many Clan pugs are terrible. They're not actually terrible, and for all intents and purposes are very likely around the same skill level of the average IS pug. Now let's say an average pug can connect and stay on target for a max. of .75s with lasers. An IS player running a quirked LL or ERLL mech is going to do more damage in that .75s than a Clan player running CERLL in the same span of time.

[Vxheous]

Greyboots, on 04 April 2015 - 04:02 PM, said:

Clan ERLL: damage 11; burn time 1.5 sec. 11/1.5 = 7.33 damage per sec.
IS ERLL: Damage 9; Burn time 1.25 sec. 9/1.25 = 7.2 damage per sec.

So ER Vs ER the extended beam duration part is nonsense for the most part. IF you can keep the beam on target for 50% of the time then they come out much the same. The applications are a little different but all things considered this argument is a storm in a teacup. Feel free to extend on what you can do with that extra ton and which gaps you can fill.

IS LL: Damage 9; Burn Time 1 sec: 9 damage per sec - definitive advantage in terms of burn time and heat.

But..

Clan Large Pulse?

2 x clan large pulse = 26 damage @ 1.15 sec burn for 12 tons at 600m optimal (20 heat).

3 x IS LL = 27 damage @ 1 sec burn time for 15 tons at 450 optimal (21 heat).

2 clan large pulse (no ghost heat) is at a clear advantage on weight and while clan has a minor disadvantage on heat they still have weight left over for 3 DHS or alternate close-range weapons. 3 ER Smalls is both cooler and more damage that a single large pulse and there's nothing saying you HAVE to pull the trigger on both weapon groups. The IS mechs do NOT have this option to the same extent as clan mechs do in terms of weight, critical slots and omnipods to min/max weapon hardpoints.

Clan large lasers are actually A-OK all things considered and anyone complaining simply isn't looking at all of the options on offer (although I haven't discussed IS LPL's I'd compare those to clan medium pulses with a targeting computer anyway).

This obsession with comparing one weapon to the "clan equivalent" isn't doing anyone any favours. Clans are DIFFERENT (and targeting computers make a distinct difference to many of the equations) so until people start considering comparing options instead of weapons they will be doing themselves a disservice in their loadouts.

Many players are already aware of these option-based comparisons and clans in CW excel because of it. As long as you want to hold yourself in the lowest common denominator and keep comparing weapons you won't excel like they do. A lot of people will understand a lot more if they start considering the clans having a range DISADVANTAGE. Not as a point of truth but as a point of consideration.

Clan ER Small laser? .25ish DPS advantage, slight HPS advantage, massive weight advantage.
IS medium? +70m range advantage.

It is all in the options, not the weapon comparisons. Clans are a different kettle of fish to IS mechs and as long as people keep considering them the same thing with range benefits and heat problems they will continue to struggle with them.

You did not account for duration decrease quirks which a lot of IS mechs have. When you decrease the ERLL burn time further, you end up with higher dps. On top of that, some mechs have range quirks that will make the IS ERLL hit out to 911m (with range module). That is further than what a CERLL can do for range (with range module)

[Leggin Ho]

Once again, these quirks are not to balance mechs, PGI once again is trying to balance Skill and the Clans are the one's getting screwed because of it. The IS has some very skilled teams and when you add the quirks to them they are pretty much unstoppable. Is it the teams fault PGI is giving them the quirks that open up the ability to stomp other teams, nope, but it would be nice if the game was balanced for game play and not for the newest players to compete with folks that have been here playing from the beginning.

Duration for 1 sec is a great thing to look at, just remember the clans ALSO have a much higher heat issue to deal with as well and that's before the quirks PGI give to the IS mechs that are all quirked out to run lasers.

Maybe once PGI actually looks at the factors of weapons and not skill they will finally balance things out, till then the quirks are a freaking joke for both sides and unbalance the game.

I'd like a balanced game for both sides, not a heat vs no heat format which is about where PGI has it with these stupid quirks at this point.

[Novawrecker]

Leggin Ho, on 05 April 2015 - 03:56 AM, said:

Once again, these quirks are not to balance mechs, PGI once again is trying to balance Skill and the Clans are the one's getting screwed because of it.

I'm all for balancing as much as possible as the next guy, but you're pretty much admitting that Clans skill overall is lacking. No balancing in the world will ever fix that "problem"

[Vxheous]

Novawrecker, on 05 April 2015 - 08:34 AM, said:

I'm all for balancing as much as possible as the next guy, but you're pretty much admitting that Clans skill overall is lacking. No balancing in the world will ever fix that "problem"

I think you misunderstood, Leggin Ho is saying that the IS got quirks to balance out the IS lack of skill (when Clans were first released, the average clan player had higher ELO vs the average IS player). Now that CW is out, and highly skilled merc groups can switch between both, the IS quirks are shown to be very powerful when the IS mechs are played by high skilled people.

[Leggin Ho]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 05 April 2015 - 09:24 AM, said:

I think you misunderstood, Leggin Ho is saying that the IS got quirks to balance out the IS lack of skill (when Clans were first released, the average clan player had higher ELO vs the average IS player). Now that CW is out, and highly skilled merc groups can switch between both, the IS quirks are shown to be very powerful when the IS mechs are played by high skilled people.

Excatly, pilot's of even skill running IS mechs vs Clans mechs give all the advantage to the IS pilot's. Instead of balancing the tech to some point, PGI seems fine to just over balance the IS tech since that's where the majority of new players play in MWO. There are teams out there are are about even across the board in CW, but when one side is running IS tech, the game is not balanced due to the over quirking of the IS mechs.

Edited by Leggin Ho, 05 April 2015 - 10:03 AM.

[Aresye]

Balance should be aimed at the middle of the ground, average player category. In the average Elo, Clan mechs and IS mechs should be equally effective.

The problem is PGI decided they wanted to balance Clan mechs so that a player with higher skill and steadier aim can do more damage. This presented problems to the competitive community, because they wanted to be able to have an even IS vs Clan experience, but since so many players in the comp scene are fairly skilled, those that piloted Clan mechs did in fact have a very real advantage.

The comp players have a very strong input with PGI when it comes to balance feedback. They said the Clans needed nerfing, so PGI started nerfing. The problem is they didn't change the mechanics of how Clan weapons were balanced in the first place, so PGI decided to change ghost heat values, laser durations, etc. in the opposite direction of where they needed to go.

The end result basically screwed over the average player. The more competitive guys adjusted. This did nothing to change the fact that good players (keyword: good) can still do very well in Clan mechs, while new to average players now perform worse than before.

[CoffiNail]

Aresye, on 05 April 2015 - 08:11 PM, said:

Balance should be aimed at the middle of the ground, average player category. In the average Elo, Clan mechs and IS mechs should be equally effective.

The problem is PGI decided they wanted to balance Clan mechs so that a player with higher skill and steadier aim can do more damage. This presented problems to the competitive community, because they wanted to be able to have an even IS vs Clan experience, but since so many players in the comp scene are fairly skilled, those that piloted Clan mechs did in fact have a very real advantage.

The comp players have a very strong input with PGI when it comes to balance feedback. They said the Clans needed nerfing, so PGI started nerfing. The problem is they didn't change the mechanics of how Clan weapons were balanced in the first place, so PGI decided to change ghost heat values, laser durations, etc. in the opposite direction of where they needed to go.

The end result basically screwed over the average player. The more competitive guys adjusted. This did nothing to change the fact that good players (keyword: good) can still do very well in Clan mechs, while new to average players now perform worse than before.

QFT!

[LastKhan]

If people really want to see OP, PGI can introduce Clan Battlemechs. Upgradeable everything?! clan weapons, clan engines?! endo and ferros!? the tears would never end. I would definitely love to pilot a Grizzly or a Kodiak then.

[Lily from animove]

bar10jim, on 01 April 2015 - 04:18 PM, said:

Nice rant. But you need to compare apples to apples when discussing heat penalties. Lets compare what happens when you fire 3 C-ERLL vs 4 IS LL. Why 3 vs 4? because that is the first laser that incurs a heat penalty for each side.

3 C-ERLL use 3 hardpoints using 3 crit slots and 12 tons to generate 33 points of damage for 37.2 heat.
4 IS LL use 4 hardpoints 8 crit slots and 20 tons to generate 36 points of damage for 38.72 heat.

So, to generate 3 extra points of damage, the IS mech needs to use 1 hardpoint, 5 crit slots, and 8 tons. For 3 points of damage. The ~ 1.2 pts of extra heat is negligible in this comparison.

Just for fun, I thought I'd try to put together both a Clan and an IS mech with the applicable 3 and 4 laser loadouts ONLY, provided they had similar characteristics.

For the Clans, the smallest I came up with a 35-ton Adder-B that moves at 106.9 kph (speed tweak) having a cooling value of 37% (Smurfy's)

The smallest IS mech I can get similar performance out of was a 50-ton Trebuchet-5J that also moved at 106.9 kph and had a cooling efficiency of 36%.

The lesson we learned here? The clan gets more firepower in a smaller mech, thereby freeing up extra tonnage for the rest of the drop deck.

I fail to find any validity in your argument.

and how many damage does apply to a section by the beam duration? especially when we now go to IS laser quirked mechs? your apples you compare with other apples are both also not apples at all.

Aresye, on 05 April 2015 - 08:11 PM, said:

Balance should be aimed at the middle of the ground, average player category. In the average Elo, Clan mechs and IS mechs should be equally effective.

The problem is PGI decided they wanted to balance Clan mechs so that a player with higher skill and steadier aim can do more damage. This presented problems to the competitive community, because they wanted to be able to have an even IS vs Clan experience, but since so many players in the comp scene are fairly skilled, those that piloted Clan mechs did in fact have a very real advantage.

The comp players have a very strong input with PGI when it comes to balance feedback. They said the Clans needed nerfing, so PGI started nerfing. The problem is they didn't change the mechanics of how Clan weapons were balanced in the first place, so PGI decided to change ghost heat values, laser durations, etc. in the opposite direction of where they needed to go.

The end result basically screwed over the average player. The more competitive guys adjusted. This did nothing to change the fact that good players (keyword: good) can still do very well in Clan mechs, while new to average players now perform worse than before.

you do not understand gamign dynamic do you?

if you create perfect balance for the average gamer and the emchs, you will have mechs in skilled gamers hand doing a lot better. the better gamers will all use these mechs and the standard crowd will start to follow them also using only these mechs. and so mech balanc eis not created by averages, becaue they follow the meta the others apply. there is a ton of averages fialing to properly pilot tbr's and scr's because they are average. Should we buff these mechs now because they can not pilot them? Now thats going to end catastrophically.

Edited by Lily from animove, 07 April 2015 - 03:11 AM.

[Leggin Ho]

Lily from animove, on 07 April 2015 - 03:04 AM, said:

and how many damage does apply to a section by the beam duration? especially when we now go to IS laser quirked mechs? your apples you compare with other apples are both also not apples at all.




you do not understand gamign dynamic do you?

if you create perfect balance for the average gamer and the emchs, you will have mechs in skilled gamers hand doing a lot better. the better gamers will all use these mechs and the standard crowd will start to follow them also using only these mechs. and so mech balanc eis not created by averages, becaue they follow the meta the others apply. there is a ton of averages fialing to properly pilot tbr's and scr's because they are average. Should we buff these mechs now because they can not pilot them? Now thats going to end catastrophically.

Yet if you do not balance the mechs in game by the average pilot, then all your really doing to trying to balance skill and screwing the players at both ends of the spectrum. You give me a mech that runs close to what the guy I'm playing against and he beats me, then he's just a better player that round, you give me one that is 30 to 40 % hotter and he beats me and you just got a pissed off person that want's to switch tech so it's not always like fighting uphill to get a fair game. Folks have been complaining about merc teams moving arouns and esp going IS last weekend, well hey why not when they get to play LOTs of CW drops and have the advantage of all the quirks that IS mechs have right now and several of them were laughing with me on comms about how much easier the matches were due to the OP of IS mechs.

Balance them to be close and then play the game, not over powering one side and trying to use numbers without the quirks to say everything is great in the game. Most folks on here have been playing a LONG time and are not stupid enough to just look at the TT numbers without the quirks and say it's balanced.

That rant is not aimed at you Lilly, just pointing out the first part of the balance needs to be mech based, not skill based.

[Aresye]

Lily from animove, on 07 April 2015 - 03:04 AM, said:

if you create perfect balance for the average gamer and the emchs, you will have mechs in skilled gamers hand doing a lot better. the better gamers will all use these mechs and the standard crowd will start to follow them also using only these mechs. and so mech balanc eis not created by averages, becaue they follow the meta the others apply. there is a ton of averages fialing to properly pilot tbr's and scr's because they are average. Should we buff these mechs now because they can not pilot them? Now thats going to end catastrophically.

The meta is a perfect example and a good starting point when adjusting balance in a game with so many customizable options that can greatly alter it.

Let's take the standard TBR laser vomit. It's an absolutely devastating build in the hands of a good pilot. Now take it down to the average player. Will they be as effective in it as the higher tier player? Probably not, because their aim isn't as accurate, their torso twisting skills are not the best, and they struggle with heat management. It's still a powerful build however, but when determining the differences between player types, a top tier player will likely average 800-1200 damage, whereas an average player will likely average 300-600 damage.

So take the upper end of the spectrum. An average player in a TBR laser vomit does 600 damage, but an average player in the nearest comparable IS mech does 500 damage. You throttle the TBR back a bit until the average player is now averaging 500 damage. It doesn't matter if top tier players can score 1800 damage in a TBR but only 1600 in a TDR-5SS. As long as mechs are balanced for the average/core player base, it's good. Doing anything else outside of that (ex: buffing mechs for bad players or nerfing mechs for good players) is not balancing the game. It's introducing handicaps on player skill.

*Please note that none of my examples are based off any statistics. The numbers and mechs used are purely for example purposes and not based off any data.