31 replies to this topic

[VoodooLou Kerensky]

*snip from Russ' post-CW event post*[color=#00FFFF]Many people including myself were very interested to get some statistics from the past weeks first ever Community Warfare focused event.[/color]
*end snip*

Id like to know how many more Inner Sphere large lasers made it to the battle field now that it takes 3 fired at one time to generate Ghost Heat and an explanation of how removing Ghost Heat from supposedly Inferior Weapons is Logical, when Clan Weapons are supposed to be more heat efficient . More heat efficiency would mean that the 3 lasers fired together would generate less of a spike, not theyre more efficient unless you fire 2 of them then their efficiency goes to hell in a handbasket, but the less efficient weapons need 3 fired together to cause a heat spike. If your saying that the lil extra damage the clan weapons do is the reason then your saying that the 2 points of damage increase for each clan weapon (since we are firing 3 that would be 6 points of damage) generates 7.2 points more heat. Thats more than 2 added heat points (thats already 2 points higher than IS since its 10 for clan and 8 for IS ER Larges) for each laser. So the more efficient Laser when fired with 2 others generates almost as much heat as a IS ER Large laser does (.8 less than IS Er Large) for 2 points more damage. Now lets kick it up to 4 ER Large. 4 IS ER Large generates an additional 6.72 heat points but 4 Clan ER Larges generate and extra 19.2 heat for 8 points of more damage than the IS lasers thats almost 3x more heat for 1 more laser. Thats Efficient? Im glad your not in charge of making current electronics more efficient, or the Fluorescent Light Bulb that pulls 60 watts would be less efficient than a incandescent pulling 180 watts. Thats an expensive minimal gain in damage (only 8 points more remember) for 3x more heat (6.72 for IS and 19.20 for Clan). So in the immortal words of Ricky Riccardo; 'Splain, Lucy!' And then replace every flourescent bulb in your office with incandescent runway lights.

[bar10jim]

Nice rant. But you need to compare apples to apples when discussing heat penalties. Lets compare what happens when you fire 3 C-ERLL vs 4 IS LL. Why 3 vs 4? because that is the first laser that incurs a heat penalty for each side.

3 C-ERLL use 3 hardpoints using 3 crit slots and 12 tons to generate 33 points of damage for 37.2 heat.
4 IS LL use 4 hardpoints 8 crit slots and 20 tons to generate 36 points of damage for 38.72 heat.

So, to generate 3 extra points of damage, the IS mech needs to use 1 hardpoint, 5 crit slots, and 8 tons. For 3 points of damage. The ~ 1.2 pts of extra heat is negligible in this comparison.

Just for fun, I thought I'd try to put together both a Clan and an IS mech with the applicable 3 and 4 laser loadouts ONLY, provided they had similar characteristics.

For the Clans, the smallest I came up with a 35-ton Adder-B that moves at 106.9 kph (speed tweak) having a cooling value of 37% (Smurfy's)

The smallest IS mech I can get similar performance out of was a 50-ton Trebuchet-5J that also moved at 106.9 kph and had a cooling efficiency of 36%.

The lesson we learned here? The clan gets more firepower in a smaller mech, thereby freeing up extra tonnage for the rest of the drop deck.

I fail to find any validity in your argument.

Edited by bar10jim, 01 April 2015 - 04:20 PM.

[Vxheous]

You also need to look at the burntime of the laser, Clan ER-LL is 1.5s (and we have no quirks to actually decrease this) vs IS LL at 1.0s or IS ER-LL at 1.25s (with multitudes of mechs that have quirks to decrease that duration). Sure the CER-LL does 11 damage, most times it is very difficult to get the full duration off without taking a lot of return fire, while IS LL's do not have as much of an issue with facetime.

[CyclonerM]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 01 April 2015 - 07:56 PM, said:

You also need to look at the burntime of the laser, Clan ER-LL is 1.5s (and we have no quirks to actually decrease this) vs IS LL at 1.0s or IS ER-LL at 1.25s (with multitudes of mechs that have quirks to decrease that duration). Sure the CER-LL does 11 damage, most times it is very difficult to get the full duration off without taking a lot of return fire, while IS LL's do not have as much of an issue with facetime.

Indeed. Numbers may look good for the CERLL, but i do not consider them that viable anymore as in the time it takes to deal full damage with them (unless i am piloting a sniper Hellbringer, which has very high hardpoints) i will take A LOT of return fire, front loaded ACs, 4 ERLL Stalkers alphas, Gauss snipers, even Dragons with their ACs firing like machine guns.

I am not sure if they were AC/2s or 5s, but once in CW i faced a Dragon with two of them in 1vs1 with my SRM/ML Mad Dog. One would say both ACs are not brawling weapons, right?

Well, they had so much RoF that while i started the engagement pratically fresh, i had my whole torso open after just a couple of seconds. By the time i destroyed him, i was already badly mauled. Maybe that RoF quirk is something to look at?

[Karl Streiger]

CyclonerM, on 02 April 2015 - 01:36 AM, said:

I am not sure if they were AC/2s or 5s, but once in CW i faced a Dragon with two of them in 1vs1 with my SRM/ML Mad Dog. One would say both ACs are not brawling weapons, right?

Well, they had so much RoF that while i started the engagement pratically fresh, i had my whole torso open after just a couple of seconds. By the time i destroyed him, i was already badly mauled. Maybe that RoF quirk is something to look at?

Hey you attacked a 60t Mech using a 60t Mech - you had short range weapons - the Dragon had a slightly imbalanced AC (in comp with the other 3 ACs - given weight and range) and the worst AC (given weight and range)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 02 April 2015 - 01:51 AM.

[CyclonerM]

Karl Streiger, on 02 April 2015 - 01:50 AM, said:

Hey you attacked a 60t Mech using a 60t Mech - you had short range weapons - the Dragon had a slightly imbalanced AC (in comp with the other 3 ACs - given weight and range) and the worst AC (given weight and range)

Sure, but
1) If my Clan mech was OP, i should have shredded him before taking much damage;
2) my weapon configuration was much more effective at close range than his (pretty sure he had either 2 AC/5s or 2AC/2s, not one of each) however he still managed to open me all over the torso.

3) if you say the AC2 is the worst AC then it renforces my point.

Edited by CyclonerM, 02 April 2015 - 01:58 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

CyclonerM, on 02 April 2015 - 01:57 AM, said:

Sure, but
1) If my Clan mech was OP, i should have shredded him before taking much damage;
2) my weapon configuration was much more effective at close range than his (pretty sure he had either 2 AC/5s or 2AC/2s, not one of each) however he still managed to open me all over the torso.

3) if you say the AC2 is the worst AC then it renforces my point.

Oh I'm don't thint that I'm one of those that say Clans are OP. They are not perfectly balanced but hardly OP.
I think he would have used 2 AC 5s.... its not a big deal to mount them in a mobile Dragon, but you are right when MACs would have been the MediumRangeSupport Weapon its supposed to be - a attack at short range should have been resolved in your favour - but without clear guidelines - every weapon in MWO is supposed to be either multi functional or short range.

the AC 2 is the worst AC simple because of the lack of range - its DPS rating at short range is not highly effected - but for its weight and damage the range is a bad joke (i have made some key numbers lately - considering range, heat, ammunition, damage, dps and weight: while the AC 20/ AC 10 are about 48, the AC 5 is about 51 and the AC 2 is at 37)

hm BTW: just curious what your Mech would have looked like when you may have removed the internal heatsinks and add ES....would have given you 5t more to toy around with

Edited by Karl Streiger, 02 April 2015 - 02:26 AM.

[CyclonerM]

Karl Streiger, on 02 April 2015 - 02:20 AM, said:

The AC 2 is the worst AC simple because of the lack of range - its DPS rating at short range is not highly effected - but for its weight and damage the range is a bad joke (i have made some key numbers lately - considering range, heat, ammunition, damage, dps and weight: while the AC 20/ AC 10 are about 48, the AC 5 is about 51 and the AC 2 is at 37)

Well, aff, unfortunately i agree, i see very few AC/2s around, and that makes me sad. I used to use them in my old K2..

Both ac/2 and CUA/2 should really get a small buff to range or something else to give them a role (or just reinforce their suppression role, maybe with a bit of screenshake, balanced by ghost heat so that a King Crab or Dire Wolf cannot just boat a lot of them and spam them).

[Repasy Cooper]

bar10jim, on 01 April 2015 - 04:18 PM, said:

Nice rant. But you need to compare apples to apples when discussing heat penalties. Lets compare what happens when you fire 3 C-ERLL vs 4 IS LL. Why 3 vs 4? because that is the first laser that incurs a heat penalty for each side.

3 C-ERLL use 3 hardpoints using 3 crit slots and 12 tons to generate 33 points of damage for 37.2 heat.
4 IS LL use 4 hardpoints 8 crit slots and 20 tons to generate 36 points of damage for 38.72 heat.

So, to generate 3 extra points of damage, the IS mech needs to use 1 hardpoint, 5 crit slots, and 8 tons. For 3 points of damage. The ~ 1.2 pts of extra heat is negligible in this comparison.

Just for fun, I thought I'd try to put together both a Clan and an IS mech with the applicable 3 and 4 laser loadouts ONLY, provided they had similar characteristics.

For the Clans, the smallest I came up with a 35-ton Adder-B that moves at 106.9 kph (speed tweak) having a cooling value of 37% (Smurfy's)

The smallest IS mech I can get similar performance out of was a 50-ton Trebuchet-5J that also moved at 106.9 kph and had a cooling efficiency of 36%.

The lesson we learned here? The clan gets more firepower in a smaller mech, thereby freeing up extra tonnage for the rest of the drop deck.

I fail to find any validity in your argument.

Buddy, that's a very weak argument.

First off, you're comparing two mechs of different weight classes.

Second, you failed to take into account bonus quirks.

Thirdly, shouldn't you also be comparing 2 C-ERLL and 3 IS-LL/ERLL for a more in depth comparison?

Lastly, who would max a Trebuchet's engine out like that? Realistically, a laser boat does not need to move at 106.9 kph. You can free up 5 whole tons by downgrading to XL 235 Engine, and still move at +80 kph. Too bad the Adder can't do the same with engine, hmmmm.

Really, such a pinhole examination. You're not even taking armor into account either. What was the point of this analysis?

Edited by Repasy, 02 April 2015 - 06:53 AM.

[Timuroslav]

Repasy, on 02 April 2015 - 06:48 AM, said:

Buddy, that's a very weak argument.

First off, you're comparing two mechs of different weight classes.

Second, you failed to take into account bonus quirks.

Thirdly, shouldn't you also be comparing 2 C-ERLL and 3 IS-LL/ERLL for a more in depth comparison?

Lastly, who would max a Trebuchet's engine out like that? Realistically, a laser boat does not need to move at 106.9 kph. You can free up 5 whole tons by downgrading to XL 235 Engine, and still move at +80 kph. Too bad the Adder can't do the same with engine, hmmmm.

Really, such a pinhole examination. You're not even taking armor into account either. What was the point of this analysis?

Your whole Counter Argument against his is this. "Your argument is weak because you are using different mechs. Clan Mechs can't swap their engines and that's bad <-(Where did this come from?). And then a whole bit of name calling and basically surmising his argument is invalid, when he was only comparing two of the closest weapons side by side, and then trying to fit the same amount of weapons in the smallest mech.

By the way If you're going to bring in " I can't swap my engine". I'm going to say almost all Clan mechs go 81- 89kph For free. and Clan Weapons have more Range and similar heat for Lighter Weight and smaller weapons.

"I can make my own mech variant by swapping hard points, but Clan mech are UP"
wut?

But, you are right in the fact this is another Rant thread.

Edited by Timuroslav, 02 April 2015 - 07:29 AM.

[Repasy Cooper]

Timuroslav, on 02 April 2015 - 07:26 AM, said:

Your whole Counter Argument against his is this. "Your argument is weak because you are using different mechs. Clan Mechs can't swap their engines and that's bad <-(Where did this come from?). And then a whole bit of name calling and basically surmising his argument is invalid, when he was only comparing two of the closest weapons side by side, and then trying to fit the same amount of weapons in the smallest mech.

By the way If you're going to bring in " I can't swap my engine". I'm going to say almost all Clan mechs go 81- 89kph For free. and Clan Weapons have more Range and similar heat for Lighter Weight and smaller weapons.

"I can make my own mech variant by swapping hard points, but Clan mech are UP"
wut?

But, you are right in the fact this is another Rant thread.

I never made any comment about being overpowered or underpowered, I simply pointed out that the analysis was incomplete. This game is not so simple-minded that you can compare two weapons while disregarding all other aspects of gameplay.

If you want my personal opinion, I actually think that IS and Clan tech are pretty well balanced and I don't want to argue EITHER as UP or OP.

Also, I never commented on the ranting in this thread either. I'm really confused, did you read another post and get it confused with mine? Or did you just come here with the sole purpose of targeting the first Clanner you see because you're a die hard IS scrub? Go ahead, say what you came to say: "Die Clanner." Post pictures of cute whiny puppies while you're at it.

JUST. DON'T. TWIST. MY. WORDS.

SCUMBAG.

[Timuroslav]

Repasy, on 02 April 2015 - 07:55 AM, said:

I never made any comment about being overpowered or underpowered, I simply pointed out that the analysis was incomplete. This game is not so simple-minded that you can compare two weapons while disregarding all other aspects of gameplay.

If you want my personal opinion, I actually think that IS and Clan tech are pretty well balanced and I don't want to argue EITHER as UP or OP.

Also, I never commented on the ranting in this thread either. I'm really confused, did you read another post and get it confused with mine? Or did you just come here with the sole purpose of targeting the first Clanner you see because you're a die hard IS scrub? Go ahead, say what you came to say: "Die Clanner." Post pictures of cute whiny puppies while you're at it.

JUST. DON'T. TWIST. MY. WORDS.

SCUMBAG.

You called his(bar10jim's) comparison pointless. Considering that He can't put Clan weapons on Inner Sphere mechs or Inner Sphere weapons on Clan mechs. That is the closest comparison WE can get to actual data.
You just said his Data and information is Bunk because "You can't compare the two because they are different mechs." Which would make you right in a way. But, he is just using the Raw Numbers of the weapons without drowning it in other Variables.

That's how science works you try to take out as many independent variables as you can before you conduct an experiment.

Also as a Side not he is the only person in this whole thread that put out Hard Standing factual numbers. Everyone else including me has just been throwing opinions into this thread. Proving my point that this is rant thread.

Also if burn time of Clan weapons in going to be calculated so does weapon range and Clan Weapons have better range so Hence bar10jim's Argument.

Keep in mind Clan Weapons are doing Full Damage beyond Inner Sphere Weapon range. While Inner Sphere Weapons are doing fractional damage at Clan Weapon range. Increased Clan Weapon burn time, means more chances to Miss but it also means more Chance time to Hit as well. Which is quite a bit more effective on Light Mechs.

Additionally, I would say play more community warfare if you think the game is balanced as is.

Edited by Timuroslav, 02 April 2015 - 09:08 AM.

[Repasy Cooper]

Timuroslav, on 02 April 2015 - 08:21 AM, said:

You called his(bar10jim's) comparison pointless. Considering that He can't put Clan weapons on Inner Sphere mechs or Inner Sphere weapons on Clan mechs. That is the closest comparison WE can get to actual data.
You just said his Data and information is Bunk because "You can't compare the two because they are different mechs." Which would make you right in a way. But, he is just using the Raw Numbers of the weapons without drowning it in other Variables.

That's how science works you try to take out as many independent variables as you can before you conduct an experiment.

Also as a Side not he is the only person in this whole thread that put out Hard Standing factual numbers. Everyone else including me has just been throwing opinions into this thread. Proving my point that this is rant thread.

Also if burn time of Clan weapons in going to be calculated so does weapon range and Clan Weapons have better range so Hence bar10jim's Argument.

Keep in mind Clan Weapons are doing Full Damage beyond Inner Sphere Weapon range. While Inner Sphere Weapons are doing fractional damage at Clan Weapon range. Increased Clan Weapon burn time, means more chances to Miss but it also means more Chance time to Hit as well. Which is quite a bit more effective on Light Mechs.

Additionally, I would say play more community warfare if you think the game is balanced as is.

Yet again you fail to grasp what I'm getting at (no surprise there). Even if he's the only one thus far to submit "hard numbers" he leaves out crucial information because frankly, he's biased. So are you. It is by no means the closest comparison we can get, I'm fairly certain I've seen much more detailed analysis.

It all comes back to the heavy bias so many of your type have against Clan weaponry. This is by no means carbon-copy battletech anymore, PGI has gone through EXTENSIVE efforts to level the playing field between the two. I mean ffs, use your head man! Do you honestly think PGI would have done a quirk pass for the Clans for no reason? And if you want to talk "science" I mean WOW do you ever have it backwards! When testing you have to take ALL variables into account in order to properly test a hypothesis. You need to have a scientific reasoning supported by experimental data to properly eliminate a variable as independent of the experiment. You don't just arbitrarily ignore it.

As for the "you can't compare the two because they are different mechs" comment, I believe I stated because they are different weight classes. Once again you have attempted to twist my words.

I have plenty of ComWar experience both in group queue and pugging solo. I can tell you firsthand that I've NEVER seen more balanced gameplay since ComWar has started. Based on my own observations, coupled with the testimony of many other players (Clanner and Spheroid combined), the victory:defeat ratio is at 50% +- 5%. That statistic actually surprises me, but again there is much testimony to support that.

I have been tempted to do an in-depth analysis of IS-Tech vs Clan-Tech to outline the advantages and drawbacks of each, but since the in-game statistics are so surprisingly balanced right now I don't see the point. PGI knows what they're doing as far as tech balance goes. I trust them.

What we should REALLY be talking about is the issue of population disparity. I mean seriously, all other (INSIGNIFICANT) aspects of the game have been continually harassed and scrutinized, but you all continue to view this issue with rose-colored glasses and ignore it.

Edited by Repasy, 02 April 2015 - 11:39 AM.

[Leggin Ho]

ROF of the AC5 is too high, it's like a MG at this point with quirks.

Heat for Clan mechs is still a bit too high or the heat quirks for IS mechs are too large.

Everyone like to throw out range as a counter to the burn time for clan weapons, well with quirks, IS weapons are close to clans in range as well as shorter burn times and let's be honest, how many times are you fighting at over 750 meters in CW. I'd say being very conservetive that 60% or more of the fighting in CW is under that 750 meters range so the IS has a MUCH higher potential for doing full damage with the ROF and the shorter burn times esp when you add in the heat quirks that most of them as and the no GH till 4 lrg laser adjustment PGI made.

Now once again that rant being said, if PGI would adjust the heat down for the clans or up for the IS a bit the balance would be very close, but that's just my point of view after alot of CW drops. I don't have "Hard" numbers, just alot of play time in CW.

Thanks and I'm off the soapbox now...

[Repasy Cooper]

Leggin Ho, on 02 April 2015 - 09:01 PM, said:

ROF of the AC5 is too high, it's like a MG at this point with quirks.

Heat for Clan mechs is still a bit too high or the heat quirks for IS mechs are too large.

Everyone like to throw out range as a counter to the burn time for clan weapons, well with quirks, IS weapons are close to clans in range as well as shorter burn times and let's be honest, how many times are you fighting at over 750 meters in CW. I'd say being very conservetive that 60% or more of the fighting in CW is under that 750 meters range so the IS has a MUCH higher potential for doing full damage with the ROF and the shorter burn times esp when you add in the heat quirks that most of them as and the no GH till 4 lrg laser adjustment PGI made.

Now once again that rant being said, if PGI would adjust the heat down for the clans or up for the IS a bit the balance would be very close, but that's just my point of view after alot of CW drops. I don't have "Hard" numbers, just alot of play time in CW.

Thanks and I'm off the soapbox now...

I'd prefer a bit more heat for IS mechs, the Clan heat efficiency is fine where it is but IS mechs get too many heavy bonuses for heat.

[CyclonerM]

I think that with this fix the number of zones could be reduced a bit. Now it will take a lot of more time to take a planet, even with more numbers, and even 12men stomping pugs will take some time, especially in counterattack.

This means that a Clan unit that wants to take planets must choose to either:

1)Do a gen rush every time it gets a chance, especially against pugs, to save time and get more zones quickly;

2)Start playing a lot earlier.

We know that people have a life and cannot be online 8 hours per cycle.. I remember they increased the number of zones to 15, i already thought it did not make much sense then, now with this change it may make even less sense. The less the zones, the less the units need to use rushes (which everyone beside me seems to find boring) in order to capture a planet, especially if a lot of counterattacks will be played and zones may more often be retaken.

[Leggin Ho]

Repasy, on 02 April 2015 - 09:07 PM, said:

I'd prefer a bit more heat for IS mechs, the Clan heat efficiency is fine where it is but IS mechs get too many heavy bonuses for heat.

That works, but one or the other is needed to fix the uneven heat between IS and CLans.

[VoodooLou Kerensky]

Well after seeing NGNG's vid of the Urbie in Action I think we should all know how the Devs feel about Clanners. Trash Born huh? Kinda regretting having spent $55 for the Cauldron Born and I dont even want to contemplate how utterly pissed off I'd be if I had been able to pay for the Top Packs of the 3 Clan waves. Hell the way things are going now I dont know if I'll even still be playing when the CB gets delivered.

[Greyboots]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 01 April 2015 - 07:56 PM, said:

You also need to look at the burntime of the laser, Clan ER-LL is 1.5s (and we have no quirks to actually decrease this) vs IS LL at 1.0s or IS ER-LL at 1.25s (with multitudes of mechs that have quirks to decrease that duration). Sure the CER-LL does 11 damage, most times it is very difficult to get the full duration off without taking a lot of return fire, while IS LL's do not have as much of an issue with facetime.

Clan ERLL: damage 11; burn time 1.5 sec. 11/1.5 = 7.33 damage per sec.
IS ERLL: Damage 9; Burn time 1.25 sec. 9/1.25 = 7.2 damage per sec.

So ER Vs ER the extended beam duration part is nonsense for the most part. IF you can keep the beam on target for 50% of the time then they come out much the same. The applications are a little different but all things considered this argument is a storm in a teacup. Feel free to extend on what you can do with that extra ton and which gaps you can fill.

IS LL: Damage 9; Burn Time 1 sec: 9 damage per sec - definitive advantage in terms of burn time and heat.

But..

Clan Large Pulse?

2 x clan large pulse = 26 damage @ 1.15 sec burn for 12 tons at 600m optimal (20 heat).

3 x IS LL = 27 damage @ 1 sec burn time for 15 tons at 450 optimal (21 heat).

2 clan large pulse (no ghost heat) is at a clear advantage on weight and while clan has a minor disadvantage on heat they still have weight left over for 3 DHS or alternate close-range weapons. 3 ER Smalls is both cooler and more damage that a single large pulse and there's nothing saying you HAVE to pull the trigger on both weapon groups. The IS mechs do NOT have this option to the same extent as clan mechs do in terms of weight, critical slots and omnipods to min/max weapon hardpoints.

Clan large lasers are actually A-OK all things considered and anyone complaining simply isn't looking at all of the options on offer (although I haven't discussed IS LPL's I'd compare those to clan medium pulses with a targeting computer anyway).

This obsession with comparing one weapon to the "clan equivalent" isn't doing anyone any favours. Clans are DIFFERENT (and targeting computers make a distinct difference to many of the equations) so until people start considering comparing options instead of weapons they will be doing themselves a disservice in their loadouts.

Many players are already aware of these option-based comparisons and clans in CW excel because of it. As long as you want to hold yourself in the lowest common denominator and keep comparing weapons you won't excel like they do. A lot of people will understand a lot more if they start considering the clans having a range DISADVANTAGE. Not as a point of truth but as a point of consideration.

Clan ER Small laser? .25ish DPS advantage, slight HPS advantage, massive weight advantage.
IS medium? +70m range advantage.

It is all in the options, not the weapon comparisons. Clans are a different kettle of fish to IS mechs and as long as people keep considering them the same thing with range benefits and heat problems they will continue to struggle with them.

[Shredhead]

VoodooLou Kerensky, on 04 April 2015 - 01:09 PM, said:

Well after seeing NGNG's vid of the Urbie in Action I think we should all know how the Devs feel about Clanners. Trash Born huh? Kinda regretting having spent $55 for the Cauldron Born and I dont even want to contemplate how utterly pissed off I'd be if I had been able to pay for the Top Packs of the 3 Clan waves. Hell the way things are going now I dont know if I'll even still be playing when the CB gets delivered.

Ermahgerd, they painted an imaginary slur against an imaginary faction in an imaginary universe on an imaginary war machine. The developers hate you!