31 replies to this topic

[sycocys]

I should also add because there some pretty forceful LRM discussion taking place through the later posts because some players don't understand the difference between new and vet CW players -

This is a general guide to get new players into CW and give them a fair shake on there way in. If you read through this and abide by it until you are experienced and/or find a team then you will have a vastly more rewarding time with CW mode.

Most of these will be applicable to any faction, feel free to copy/repost elsewhere if you like, I will also continue to update it as things that I missed come to me or get suggested.

1. This isn't standard queue. Teamwork, strategy, and the ability to react to/follow commands is necessary. If those things aren't for you, you won't get much enjoyment out of CW.

Use LFG, the FRR hub, faction chat or messaging friends to form groups and set up decks/basic strategies in advance of matches. This will make your matches run a million times more smoothly, and form much more quickly.

(Also note - if you LFG/Group for standard queue your enjoyment of that mode will increase dramatically as you will run into far fewer tkers and terrible players, in other words your match difficulty will be far more constant rather than the pure randomness of solo dropping).
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FRR TS HUB - lots of players online here with a fairly diverse range of commanders and units in the mix, if you join and look around you WILL find a team to run with.
Server address: 162.243.239.158:9725
Password: Dragon
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OLD - we're on Raidcall more often than TS, because we are old.
Generally a few to full group or more of us online in the afternoons.

Anyone is welcome to join in and experience our way of doing things as long as you are mature enough to respect the fact we are a group mostly of 30+'s that don't have the patience for the ragey xbox live nonsense over comms. Fun bunch that is casually competetive.

Room ID - 4913355

Make sure to announce yourself if you hop on!

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2. LRM boats -
If you are pug/solo dropping, just simply don't bring them. 90% of the time you are going to completely waste a mech.

If you are dropping with a team AND the others as well as the commander are willing to alter their decks and strategy to support a boat, then by all means go for it - but at least bring another weapon with you, the lights will charge.

The reason for this is that ecm stacks instantly counter the ecm counters - possible to counter pugs, very hard to get enough concurrent counters in the appropriate places on the field to counter clan teams. Ton for ton, direct damage + bap is going to crush lrms in CW (even if you have a team that adjusts for it because your are sacrificing a lot of dps to enable lrms).

Lastly, when using LRMs if you choose to as a support weapon, or pre-determined boat - they are about 500 times more effective in the 200-500 meter range than anything over that. The time to hit is greatly reduced giving the target much less time to duck for cover or break LOS. Ideally you'll want to be about 50 meters behind your brawlers at the most so that you can cycle in to soak damage while they cool off.

Additional side note from further discussion -
-- I'd still recommend new players to CW to avoid LRMs unless you've actually mastered using them at brawling range. Most teams are not going to bring additional counters or narc/ppc to try to get you shots, unless you find a good slot in a defense team maybe because it's somewhat easier to force a straggler out. If you aren't 500% confident you can keep your own locks and range at under 500 meters there are better choices out there.

Basically put, scoring 1k+ damage in standard drops with lrms doesn't make your lrm machine viable for CW. You need to be practiced in getting your own locks/choosing targets you will not miss, know the terrain of these maps up down side to side, be able to function in a brawl while firing those puppies without losing your locks, and maybe the utmost - not give away your position to mechs able to close on you as IS LRMs do 0 damage under 180m.
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3. Armor - you need this. You also need to be using it by cycling who is taking damage from your opponent. This is the most alien concept for new players, but yes you actually need to at various cycling points be the point man and sucking up some damage so that your teammates can cool off and keep your dps potential at maximum for as long as possible.

It is also a good thing to take account of on the gate breaks and pushes that every single person needs to go through together to the designated hold point regardless of what your armament is. Everyone needs to be there displacing damage so no single person gets focused down and pushing the defenders into cover so the team can make their rally point.

My experience says that on most mechs you'll want to be heavily front loaded with your armor - 80-90% on the front torsos, and generally no less than 80% on your legs. You shouldn't need much on your back because your team is there to protect yours, just as you are there to protect theirs. I generally run 12 or 16 armor on the back plate, 8-10 if I'm running an xl.

4. DPS/heat management- very important in CW. This is the one thing that sets us apart from clan mechs, so you need to be able to pour out your dps much longer than your opponent, as well as learn when to push around your teammate to take over his fire when he's running hot. Running with teams that run consistent decks is the only way to really learn that last part.

Most teams aren't going to care much what you are running so long as its effective in your hands, dropping with (multiple) flamers will probably get you removed from your team in other words but most teams will talk to you about it before hand to try to get you set up and moving on the right path.

Some people like to run hot, others like to run cool - that's all a matter of how you like to play both styles work well in cw and more so when they are combined.

5. Have fun- most of the FRR teams are casual competitive, very little role-play and lots of joking around between drops. Winning is great, but almost all of these guys are having a blast no matter the outcome of the match. If I had to pick one thing that is wildly different from running pug/solo to running with organized teams this is the one. People don't get 1/100th as frustrated because they are dropping with people with the same goals and tactics in mind and working together whether it succeeds or fails - that means the level of engagement into the matches is way more and the chances of dropping with the guys everyone dreads in standard is almost non-existent.

If you want the role-playing you are welcome to form a group here or find Mech-the-Dane, otherwise I'm sure someone can point you into that direction just as well to get you a place you'd have that kind of fun.

6. If you are new and don't know what to do ASK! Doesn't matter if you text or comm questions in, veterans will help you here in the FRR they want to see you doing better and enjoying the mode as much as they do. You won't learn everything in a match or probably even a dozen, but the basics you'll pick up on quickly and our players will help you keep improving.

I'm sure there's plenty more to be added but an Ice Ferret laser-ed the duct tape off my reactor earlier today.

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additional notes -

7. Avoid using XL engines in mechs above lights. ST armor is easy to hit on most and many clanners (past the noobs) can tell you are running XL just by seeing what you fire if not your weapons load out on info gathering. It effectively cuts your armor value by 1/3 which you won't offset no matter how fast you are. There are probably 1 or 2 exceptions that have super quirked ST armor, but my estimation is that you will likely not overcome your loss of effective armor rating unless you happen to be a true master of that build.

8. Radar Deprivation and other modules.

Radar derping is essential on your first two waves where you'll see the bulk of the clan LRMs when they are fielded. Highly recommended to get at least 2 for those mechs.

Seismic is also quite helpful for picking out guys on the other sides of walls/gates.

Advanced sensors is fantastic for mechs running BAP (extended further by CC if you are really tuning things to the brink) - I'd take BAP and this over Seismic in many cases, but a lot of it comes down to the mech you are running.

Those will be the 3 most useful/essential modules to get onto your mechs. Some of the others can still be useful under certain conditions and with specific builds or teams but these are the ones to start with.

Weapons - Range first, CD second. If you multi weapon build it's probably more useful to get range for both weapons -or- range for the shorter distance and cd for the longer. Very good tool to have equipped once you have the c-bills for them.

Consumables - definately equip and use these!
Arti strike seems to be slightly more effective as it drops into a ball/circle where the air strike drops a line/strafe of fire. Either are really great for pushing down enemies and inflicting some amount of damage.

UAVs - the one counter for ECM that actually works 100% of the time! Unfortunately the uptime is generally short, but it will give you a great view of the enemy location and heading.

Cooldowns - I'm either or on these, I can see their usefulness but the cost vs the reward just isn't there for me. The other two give tactical advantages for the entire team which makes the 40k a bit easier to swallow.

Edited by sycocys, 22 April 2015 - 06:16 AM.

[VXJaeger]

If LRM-mech is more than 400m behind frontline, it'll mostly cause friendly fire damage

[sycocys]

VXJaeger, on 15 April 2015 - 03:04 PM, said:

If LRM-mech is more than 400m behind frontline, it'll mostly cause friendly fire damage

Usually miss completely do to lack of LOS to know you are going to hit your target. I know a few players that can manage longer distances, but they are LRM wizards that know the maps very well and can tell you exactly what obstacles are around the red doritos before they even grab them for a target.

Newer players don't have that luxury yet, throwing dps into the side of a building or rock face in CW - especially dps that you can't recycle with heat doesn't do anything but give away your location without any possible reward for doing so.

Especially if you are LRMing from the back, you essentially are sacrificing yourself AND the at least 1 dude that felt sorry for you and attempted a rescue if not the entire drop because saving you meant breaking ranks and leaving openings in your front formation.
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Most brawlers are going to try to fight in the 300~ meter range, from that distance your locks are not only going to hit, but they will hit fast and shake the living H out of the dude that's facing your buddy up - the shake alone is generally enough to secure the kill but against clan mechs stripping off that torso armor is something your brawlers will thank you for.

And trust me, when you learn this and take it back to standard queue, where you are pairing up with the brawlers and letting loose at an effective range you are going to start decimating people - with teamwork.

[Nazar24]

sycocys, on 15 April 2015 - 11:28 AM, said:

2. LRM boats -

If you are dropping with a team AND the others as well as the commander are willing to alter their decks and strategy to support a boat, then by all means go for it - but at least bring another weapon with you, the lights will charge.

[...]

Ton for ton, direct damage + bap is going to crush lrms in CW (even if you have a team that adjusts for it because your are sacrificing a lot of dps to enable lrms).

I would say, avoid at all cost the lrm.
Sure,you can bring what you want, nobody have the right to choose the deck for you, but new players, please, get a direct fire mech, you will get more damage, more reward, and you can avoid the bad habit that lrm bring with their use.
Lrm are flamer level, they are that bad, maybe flamers are better, at least they look cool.

Edited by Nazar24, 20 April 2015 - 10:10 AM.

[Drake67]

sycocys, on 15 April 2015 - 05:04 PM, said:

Usually miss completely do to lack of LOS to know you are going to hit your target. I know a few players that can manage longer distances, but they are LRM wizards that know the maps very well and can tell you exactly what obstacles are around the red doritos before they even grab them for a target.

Are you calling me a wizard? LOL

Even I don't "boat " LRM'S any more. Bring only to support and finish off that cored Stormcrow that's running away.

[Nazar24]

Drake67, on 20 April 2015 - 10:45 AM, said:

Bring only to support and finish off that cored Stormcrow that's running away.

Any direct fire weapon will do that better.
you can't pinpoint with lrm, no matter how good you are.

[Drake67]

Nazar24, on 20 April 2015 - 11:13 AM, said:

Any direct fire weapon will do that better.
you can't pinpoint with lrm, no matter how good you are.

The shot in question was not line of sight and on a cherry red CT. The coring I give thanks to the team. I was just able to finish the job sans LOS.

The point was. Boating not good idea in CW. They can be useful but not relied on as a primary weapon.

[Nazar24]

Drake67, on 20 April 2015 - 12:52 PM, said:

The point was. Boating not good idea in CW. They can be useful but not relied on as a primary weapon.

Boating lrm is not a good idea, but neither mounting lrm is.
It is not a good primary weapon, and it is not a good side weapon.
For the rare kill secured that you can score in the late game (that stormcrow in your post wasn't covered by ecm, nor had radar derp or it was a pug game with less than average skill), you are giving away tonnage and crit slot better used for heatsinks, speed and proper secondary weapon useful in an actual engage.
Again, if somebody like lrm, he is free to use them, but this is for new player.
I may sound like a jerk but "don't give bad advice".

Edited by Nazar24, 20 April 2015 - 02:00 PM.

[sycocys]

I've only seen a handful people in the game that actually run lrms with skill, and Drake67 happens to be one of them.

Even as support weapons they are in far better hands of an experienced pilot than someone that's coming from pugland with terrible target selection and lobbing off full range shots.

As far as Drake goes, he gets a pass with our group but knows full well going in that we aren't bringing anything other than our in your face style to support his lrms. He uses them well, it is quite possible to use them well as a support weapon IF you have lost the bad habits of public queue, even against organized teams with all their ecm - because with our team we push and push until the ecm is gone.

I'd still recommend new players to CW to avoid LRMs unless you've actually mastered using them at brawling range. Most teams are not going to bring additional counters or narc/ppc to try to get you shots, unless you find a good slot in a defense team maybe because it's somewhat easier to force a straggler out. If you aren't 500% confident you can keep your own locks and range at under 500 meters there are better choices out there.

Edited by sycocys, 20 April 2015 - 02:05 PM.

[Nazar24]

sycocys, on 20 April 2015 - 01:59 PM, said:

I'd still recommend new players to CW to avoid LRMs unless you've actually mastered using them at brawling range.

sycocys, on 15 April 2015 - 11:28 AM, said:

Ton for ton, direct damage + bap is going to crush lrms in CW (even if you have a team that adjusts for it because your are sacrificing a lot of dps to enable lrms).

If you enjoy the lurming, use them, we are here to have fun.

But, even if you are a god with them, you will be even better with any other weapon that isn't called flamer.
You will learn how to lead your shots and how to torso twist, things that the targeting system effectively negate.

So if you are new, say no to the lurms, you will get more damage, more wins more money and you will learn more, better and faster.
If you are experienced, say no to lurm anyway.

[Damon Howe]

sycocys, on 20 April 2015 - 01:59 PM, said:

I'd still recommend new players to CW to avoid LRMs unless you've actually mastered using them at brawling range. Most teams are not going to bring additional counters or narc/ppc to try to get you shots, unless you find a good slot in a defense team maybe because it's somewhat easier to force a straggler out. If you aren't 500% confident you can keep your own locks and range at under 500 meters there are better choices out there.

Perhaps then just make a little side-note in your OP about that, would make the distinction clear - though I am glad to hear you say it.

[sycocys]

Edited/added that and a little more to the original.

The point is, in the proper hands and given you run with a team - I definitely wouldn't run them straight pugging - not everyone can be on the front line. So having someone skilled and geared to use them as a support in a drop where the rest of their team is front loaded can be a great boon by lobbing shakers and armor strippers over the top adding dps where there was none. It reduces the accuracy of the fire on your front line guys and makes the ttk seconds faster at the least.

Even so, you need to count on at least 2-3 of the guys in the front to be running bap and/or ecm, if not 5+ to counter all the ecm should they not be able to disable the stacks you see from organized teams. Many times the drawbacks can and do outweigh the benefits which make lrms something that should be hashed out with each team you run with.

[Nazar24]

Any serious, min maxed 12 man, will laugh at and crush any strategy build around lrms, with ecm and radar deprivation that will negate the indirect fire advantage .
Then you will have one mech or more, throw into the inevitable brawl, spreading damage on at least 3 component, not been able to target legs, no matter the skill, leaving the team 11vs12 or worse.

Want a long range suppression mech, that can shake your enemy into oblivion?
Ac5, uac5, even ac2. Pin point damage , and no gost heat. Far more effective in a brawl as well as in a poke war.
high mounted LL, ERLL and ppc users can play the support role better, with no ammo, than any master of lrm, any day of the week.

Not everyone can't be in the frontline, but everyone must have los in a battle, if not it's time to reposition, and using lrm with los defeat their purpose.

Saying that lrm are better used in the 500 m area with los is correct, but that is a way to minimize their flaws, and in no way they can be a greater asset for the team than any uac, ac, LL, ppc carrier.
Even in that sweet spot, any serius build with the ability to pin point the damage will have the upper hand in combat.
Not to mention the clan have an easy to use, instadamage, pinpoint medium laser that cover that exact 500 meter area.
A one ton equipment.

Dear player, if lrm are still the weapon of choice, glhf , but be aware that you are bringing an inferior weapon system to the field, and you are crippling yourself and your team.

And please, to any commander, please, don't waste your time tring to figure out the way to make lrm useful. They aren't.

ps:
Sorry if i am this redundant and flooding this useful post with my arguments, but this point has to be made.
There are no redeeming factor in the use of lrms, there aren't "if the team do this then it become somewhat viable" or "they can be great at", there arent "if", there aren't "but",there is just a hopeless, broken weapon system.

Edited by Nazar24, 21 April 2015 - 04:01 AM.

[sycocys]

I'd like to reply to you and explain it yet again but I really don't think you grasp what the purpose of using LRMs as a support (not boat/primary) weapon is so it would unfortunately just be a waste of time.

[Nazar24]

lrm 10: you get 10 damage spread across at least 3 component, no matter what, for 4 heat, with travel time and a nice warning for the enemy that the missiles are on the fly, 5 tons plus the needed ammo (and one ton of ammo is roughly 90 point of damage given the accuracy), on top of that unused missiles can explode.

large laser: 9 damage, insta hit with beam duration, for 7 heat, with the ability to pinpoint, 5 tons, not affected by ecm or ams.

In this one comparison, in the best possible condition for the lrms, they have just one, pro with the lower heat .

Even at close range when the flying time don't count, large laser is still hands down superior, if you can mount lrm, you can mount better side weapon (not all the hardpoint must be used) that can do what lrm do, much better.
In some case lrm will even make the geometry! of a mech worse (timberwolf, thunderbolt, banshee...)


What i am not understanding here? please tell me, i really cannot grasp the purpose of lrm used as a support weapon, what can they do better than any other weapon?

With the upcoming challenge, we will see lots of organized unit, used to the competitive scene, I want my faction to be competitive too.

Edited by Nazar24, 21 April 2015 - 07:58 AM.

[Damon Howe]

A Few non-statistic points for LRMs: (playing devil's advocate, I don't actually like using them)
1) Force mechs to cover - Yes, they hear the LRMs incoming, and unless they know for sure they ain't getting hit, it most likely means they'll move to some sort of cover. By being in cover, they're most likely not shooting at you. One less mech shooting is one less mech you have to worry about - for the moment.
2) Cockpit shake/blind - Large numbers of LRMs can really screw with your vision. You can't see anything except wave after wave of LRMs baring down on you, and your cockpit is rocking so much you can't aim anyways. The best can fight through this, but most won't - again, one less mech shooting at you.
3) Force less open/aggressive tactics - Aside from those units which are so well-coordinated that they laugh at LRMs, most times the presence of LRMs on the field will subtly force the enemy to change tactics; they won't appear in the open as much, popping will be the dominant movement in order to deny locks. This can be effective, if you're winning trades against the popping mechs.

Just a few minor things that LRMs, in the right hands, CAN do if used effectively. I however, find them to be useless in all but pugging.

[Nazar24]

Damon Howe, on 21 April 2015 - 08:16 AM, said:

1) Force mechs to cover - Yes, they hear the LRMs incoming, and unless they know for sure they ain't getting hit, it most likely means they'll move to some sort of cover. By being in cover, they're most likely not shooting at you. One less mech shooting is one less mech you have to worry about - for the moment.

A good whack with a long range weapon will do that, better.

Damon Howe, on 21 April 2015 - 08:16 AM, said:

2) Cockpit shake/blind - Large numbers of LRMs can really screw with your vision. You can't see anything except wave after wave of LRMs baring down on you, and your cockpit is rocking so much you can't aim anyways. The best can fight through this, but most won't - again, one less mech shooting at you.

ac5, uac5, ac2 (even them) will do that, and they will kill that mech faster, a blind mech can still aim for the red square, a dead mech no.

Damon Howe, on 21 April 2015 - 08:16 AM, said:

3) Force less open/aggressive tactics - Aside from those units which are so well-coordinated that they laugh at LRMs, most times the presence of LRMs on the field will subtly force the enemy to change tactics; they won't appear in the open as much, popping will be the dominant movement in order to deny locks. This can be effective, if you're winning trades against the popping mechs.

Not a point, puggish team will crumble under any weapon, better be prepared when the actual competition show up.

I still don't get it.

Edited by Nazar24, 21 April 2015 - 08:44 AM.

[Damon Howe]

AC's don't blind you (and don't do nearly as much shaking - each LRM shakes the mech a little), and you're more likely to stay in a fight even taking AC/Gauss rounds rather than ducking for cover.

Edit: Even 12 mans that aren't A-class can crumble under withering LRM fire. It will at least get them to pop a little more and push a little less.

Edited by Damon Howe, 21 April 2015 - 08:44 AM.

[Nazar24]

Damon Howe, on 21 April 2015 - 08:43 AM, said:

Edit: Even 12 mans that aren't A-class can crumble under withering LRM fire. It will at least get them to pop a little more and push a little less.

you are giving away lots of tonnage for a gimicky move on a fail of a weapon, that will encourage a push.
The ultimate goal is to kill a mech, and lrm are rather ineffective at that (i am not talking about securing the kills).
Why hope to exploit bad player weaknes, when you can be prepared for the good 12 man?
( and not to mention, while your lurmer is shooting at the poor guy, his buddies are still around and that lurmer can't torso twist)

Edited by Nazar24, 21 April 2015 - 08:54 AM.

[SuperAtomicAirplane]

In my experience, LRM's work great if you're already winning. But how do you get to that stage? Direct fire weapons. LRM's don't turn losing games around, if you're losing they are a huge liability. I guess they will help you win faster if you already would have won.

It's common knowledge that they are terrible against well coordinated teams. In fact, I don't know why anyone runs any builds that aren't on metamechs.com. If you want to play against the pros, you're going to have to learn from them first.