Jump to content

Pugs And Tukayyid - Please Help Them


74 replies to this topic

#1 sycocys

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Moderate Giver
  • Moderate Giver
  • 7,599 posts

Posted 21 April 2015 - 02:57 AM

Alright I'm posting this because of a very poor experience dropping with my small group into defense last night.

Most of the rest of the team consisted of other house pugs, which wouldn't have been a problem if other house players hadn't been leading them to believe that running 2 lrm boat/sniper "support" mechs was viable for CW.

First off, I'm sorry I blew up on you guys it's obvious your faction reps had been/have been trolling you so that you intentionally lead yourself into getting stomped a lot. I was quite frustrated because most of you appeared to understand the strategy of where to go and what to do, but when we got there most of you wanted to play support instead of push and take advantage of clan weakness.

----
For the pugs dropping like this I'll make it easy to understand - 6-8 people can't support 4-6 people on the front line. CW doesn't work like that, 10-11 people need to be up front spreading the damage out so if you are in the back throwing lrms at the walls or dumb firing them into your teams backs you are asking to get rolled.

Clans have high alphas so if you are not on the front line pushing them down and keeping them from focus firing down your team, you are going to fail - A LOT. This is probably the #1 reason most pugs have this belief that premades are so powerful, because they refuse to acknowledge that this mode and these maps are built to keep you engaged with your enemy.

-----
To the guys, especially it seems in other factions, telling the pug players that dropping your two heaviest mechs loaded with LRMs is viable... please stop trolling the pugs.

You guys want the population up so matches are faster and more fun/rewarding? Then you need to be teaching these guys how to actually rig themselves for this mode rather than letting them continue bad loadouts and habits from standard queue. If you troll the pugs and leave them believing they can drop with bad decks and they keep getting rolled over and over, then you guys are the reason you can't find teams as well as the reason we'll have some sort of dumbed down split queue when PGI pushes to steam.

------

Since your faction leaders won't help you organize better decks I'll post a short general guide that will make your matches much more enjoyable and rewarding.

1. Your decks should be 95% direct fire weaponry. If you run ANY lrms you need to be very confident that you can use them in the 3-500 meter range while brawling, if you aren't up in the fight you aren't sharing the damage load.

2. Deck should be at least - 1 assault, 1 heavy, lots of front armor. The other two are choices, you could run ecm lights/meds (today is the griffon-2n) or a second heavy/assault and whatever else fits.

3. You should be no less than 10 tons under the deck limit if you are pugging. Ever.

4. The only 2 'viable' Trial mechs are the raven-3L and maybe the spider if you don't have lights to fill the last spot.

5. If you aren't taking lead/know exactly what to be doing - speak up/type up. People can't just know that you are new to CW or don't know a strategy for a particular map or group. If your in-game behavior suggests you know what you are doing people will expect you actually know what you are doing.

The last tip is on the side of your deck building - in CW you NEED to be taking your share of the damage. You can't be hanging back and on your 1st mech while everyone else is dropping in their 3rd and 4th. If you are that guy you are failing your team whether or not you are splashing around 1k damage in that mech because you have 800-1300 points of unused armor that would have kept your team dps up and running.

Sharing damage is a huge part of CW, especially when fighting clans - this is the one thing pugs consistently fall short on with bad habits from the standard queue.

Past that building your deck can get much deeper but if you stick by that general guide there you will start to see a great improvement in your drops quite rapidly. I would suggest highly hopping on your factions or the FRR TS hub and dropping with some groups there and asking questions about builds and strategies if you are new to CW or have been getting rolled a lot. Even if you are out of faction you'll likely find teams that are willing to run defense with you and get you prepped up for the Tukayyid battle.

#2 PhoenixNMGLB

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Knight Errant
  • Knight Errant
  • 307 posts

Posted 21 April 2015 - 03:32 AM

I think you meant no more than 10 tons under the limit (I.e. at least 240 tons) but other than that agree 100%



#3 Onimusha shin

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Clan Exemplar
  • Clan Exemplar
  • 273 posts

Posted 21 April 2015 - 03:47 AM

what OP said :)

#4 Wesxander

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Forbidden
  • The Forbidden
  • 319 posts

Posted 21 April 2015 - 03:56 AM

You do need support mechs to engage clans depending on the mission. However even when they are needed it should be no more than 2 lrm boats in one wave. The clans vary what they take based on mission assigned and Innersphere players refuse to do that. To many people that take LRM boat assaults refuse to take any kind of brawling weapon and often carry vulnerable xl engine. Some the missions when clans are defending you will see 4 SCRs up front with BAP and SRM 6 streaks to stop any light rushes. They all lock on the same light at once killing it instantly. You will see 2 DWF using gauss and ER large lasers sometimes ER PPCs or ac 5 ultras. By far though expect the DWF to be packing gauss and other sniping weapons.

PUG matches rarely use fients on the clans. That is draw them to one area pretend to engage while the other side does it job. Hell in pug your lucky if you have all 12 players often there is at least one dcd about 80 percent of the time. Up to10 percent of the time you have 2 dcds.

LRMS can work against clans you just need teamwork and IS players that realize if clans are taking 4 hbr and 7 SCR's to rush you and 4 them have bap then you better be bringing at least 4 bap to the fray to counter the HBR's ECM. It all depends on the mission and being flexible. The gate rushes the clans often use forces you to break them. Once they are broken you clean up the legged stragglers and try and finish any early arrival scouts. When you are being rushed by the 4 HBR 7 SCR team you should be legging the SCR's as the battle progresses. RIght from the moment they enter the compound. You are right about one thing the force for IS needs at least 6 brawlers on anything other than a gate rush. Never light gate rush on the first round more often save that for round 2 or 3. Use ECM but be aware the clans are fielding 4 baps whos job is get in close an negate your 1or 2 ecm. They will bring more ecm than you so IS Players again start making room for baps.

Build your mech deck for the mission. Defending gate walls you need brawlers to keep them out with BAP to give the LRM mech in back target locks. Fighting base over run attack mission you need gauss, ER ppcs and other quirked mechs to knock out the 2 dwf that will be waiting for you to to take the gates down. Don't be predictable in your load outs. Everyone in IS needs to bring at least 2 brawling mechs of some kind minium. Can't stress enough again BAP the clans are making full use of it on SCR's. Our IS brawling mechs have to do the same to counter 2 to 4 HBR's each wave. If your not taking the full extra tonnage as IS player your shorting your team and better score in excess of 2100 damage each game in CW.

#5 Isegrimm

    Member

  • PipPip
  • 42 posts
  • LocationGermany

Posted 21 April 2015 - 04:04 AM

@ OP: Wise and true words. :D

#6 sycocys

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Moderate Giver
  • Moderate Giver
  • 7,599 posts

Posted 21 April 2015 - 04:50 AM

First yes - 240 is the absolute minimum deck weight you should ever drop with. Lower than that and you are sacrificing far too much armor for your team to carry you.

LRM BOATS ARE NOT A VIABLE CHOICE IF YOU ARE PUG DROPPING... EVER!

LRM boats are not a wise choice if you are dropping with a team either.

LRM support with a mech and pilot capable of brawling with LRMs works ON A TEAM. If you are desperate to use LRMs find a team to drop with that can support you (because its more that than you supporting them).

If you are random dropping, you simply can not, I repeat can not try to drop as a specialized support role. There are 11 other players you are randomly dropping with and if even 1 other guy chose to do the same you just tripled or quadrupled the difficulty level of your match because you lost 1k+ armor on your front line per person. If you want to play these "roles" you absolutely need to find a team that can build their decks and strategies out ahead of time, it just doesn't work for pug play.

#7 Nazar24

    Member

  • PipPipPip
  • Philanthropist
  • Philanthropist
  • 94 posts
  • LocationItalia

Posted 21 April 2015 - 05:08 AM

View PostWesxander, on 21 April 2015 - 03:56 AM, said:

You do need support mechs to engage clans depending on the mission. However even when they are needed it should be no more than 2 lrm boats in one wave.



Lrm boat are never needed.
What is needed is a kick in the groin at whoever came up with the noob trap that lrm is.

Edited by Nazar24, 21 April 2015 - 05:15 AM.


#8 sycocys

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Moderate Giver
  • Moderate Giver
  • 7,599 posts

Posted 21 April 2015 - 05:20 AM

LRMs can be useful but they are very conditional - thus should only be used by near full-full premade teams that can accommodate someone running them as a support weapon.

I just wanted to add for the pugs/solo guys -

Look at it like this, when you solo drop you are volunteering to take the position of the grunt in the team.

Why? Because you aren't organizing with a team you lose that ability to be a specialized unit, as we all I assume know specialized units require the entire team to be set up accordingly to operate smoothly - this starts at the pre-drop stage setting up strategy and drop decks/order to the actual map strategy and your placement,

CW isn't standard queue, there is far less room for you to get lucky with terrible loadouts and bad habits - you are playing against players that want more challenge, that run more concisely prepared loads and teams, so if you pug drop and expect it to be anything like standard you are going to not only have a bad time for 20 minutes, you are going to make sure 11 other people have a bad time for 20 minutes.

Finding a hub or making some friends to run with is by far the best option for this mode. Even if its just 4 other people you text chat with, that's 100% better than pug dropping.

#9 DaynarFaol

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • The Howl
  • The Howl
  • 103 posts
  • LocationOregon

Posted 21 April 2015 - 07:35 AM

First off LRMs do have a use in CW. Have been finding them to be of use on the Counterattack missions. You just can't have more then maybe 2 in a wave.

Also do not dictate to people what their deck should be. Or others will tell YOU what to run.

I have run several attack decks that carry NO Assaults. Pair of Heavies and a pair of mediums. The weight of a mech doesn't matter really. It is the ROLE that is what matters.

But then again the biggest issue is that few people actually COMMUNICATE.

Communication is key to CW, but that is were most PUG drops fail.

If you are of a PUG or a single Lance running with an 8+ formed group then FOLLOW FREAKING ORDERS.

That is the major key in CW. Listen and follow direction if you are part of a drop.

I don't know how many times that poor comms has led to defeat.

Done CW drops with a few guys that were:
1) PUGs
2) Running nothing but Trial mechs.

They formed a lance in fact.

We won.

Why?

Because they LISTENED.

If you are going to drop CW then listen to the drop caller.

Which means have comms on in game.

If you have a hearing impairment or can not use in game comms let someone know.

I will gladly have someone in my unit, when I am acting as a DC; type out movement orders.

Going along with listening is FOCUS FIRE. When a target is called people should be hammering them into snail snot as quickly as possible.

Again people do not listen.

That is why people fail at CW.

The failure to be able to communicate/listen.

#10 sycocys

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Moderate Giver
  • Moderate Giver
  • 7,599 posts

Posted 21 April 2015 - 07:46 AM

When you start facing the top teams in you under-armored drops come back and let us know how that goes.

My speculation is that each mech will last through its first pass through the gate and until the first wave of guys fire on you. Sacrificing armor and spreading damage for your team against teams that are very good at focusing is only going to get your team slaughtered because you dropped with low armor.

But you'll pick up on that quick for this event when those teams are out in full force and no longer due to your faction location and ability to pick easier IS targets.

Edited by sycocys, 21 April 2015 - 07:47 AM.


#11 Xolin

    Member

  • PipPip
  • Big Brother
  • Big Brother
  • 42 posts
  • Twitter: Link
  • Twitch: Link
  • LocationSeattle

Posted 21 April 2015 - 07:55 AM

I think this is a MUST READ for anyone looking to get into CW....

#12 Repasy Cooper

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Vicious
  • The Vicious
  • 1,131 posts
  • LocationAlpheratz

Posted 21 April 2015 - 08:31 AM

OP is up for debate... I run this Warhawk in ComWar to great effect:

WHK-SCUD

Not your typical ComWar mech, but extremely effective. I believe with conviction that lrms can be done right in ComWar, but you can't be half-***ed about it. This game requires critical thinking before you even step foot onto the battlefield, so no surprise there.

For an lrm build to be TRULY effective, you can't rely on your team carrying for your drawbacks.
YOU have to carry your team.

At the VERY VERY LEAST, your lrm build should enable you to consistently get more than two kills, and/or consistently deal +1000 damage. That's asking a lot from a mech, but a good lrm build with lots of ammo can do this, which is why in the right hands it can be a real asset in ComWar.

If people are going to use lrms in ComWar, I suggest the following:

Have the ability to spot your own targets, because nobody else is even thinking about lrms.

Have LOTS of ammo. You should have enough for two waves of enemy mechs. That's about 2-3 tons per launcher.

TAG is more effective than Narc, because you don't have to worry about targeting the enemy with ECM.

Do not take both TAG and Narc. It's a waste of tonnage. Again, TAG is superior in this aspect, being only 1 ton.

Your ideal range is 400-650m. It is not 997m.

Ammo conservation is important. You should not fire at an enemy unless you have a sure hit. Exception being to scare an enemy into cover, but you should only launch the minimal number of missiles in this case.

Don't bother with range module, but definitely going to need missile cooldown module.

Consider upgrading to artemis, though you may prefer having more tonnage for ammo.

Have backup weapons to cover your close-range. Medium pulse lasers are probably the best option.

You have to equip Active Probe, this is not up for debate.

Clanners should also equip T-Comp for additional lock-on speed and higher crits for backup lasers.

IS should consider Command Console for additional lock-on speed, but again ammo capacity is higher priority.

For many of the above reasons, assault mechs make the best lrm support mechs. Exception being some Clan mechs, since lightweight Clan tube launchers allow for heavy ammo loadouts.

Don't bother with CPLT lrm build unless you're highly confident. CPLT gauss build is more effective.

Don't have too many people dropping lrm builds at once. Recipe for disaster.







Last and most important: If you play an lrm build in ComWar and aren't able to last two waves, then don't play lrms. An lrm build should be able to stick to the second line and deal lots of damage from a safe position, it should be reliable, and it should rack up the kills. So, if you're running out of ammo too soon, or you're getting picked off too early, you aren't going to do your team any good. Even after my Warhawk runs dry of ammo, my backup weapons still have enough punch to quickly take out several crippled mechs. I average 3-5 kills with this mech each time I drop into ComWar. A good lrm build can quickly eliminate crippled targets before they can reposition and deal more damage to your allies. A good lrm pilot is by no means timid, and should be ready to dash into the fray with backup weapons when the situation demands it. If you can't do these things with your lrm build, you need to reassess the build or scrap it altogether and go with a direct-fire support.

That's my two cents. In short, lrms are an asset in ComWar, but you can't be obtuse about it.

Edited by Repasy, 21 April 2015 - 08:42 AM.


#13 Parjai Skirata

    Member

  • Pip
  • 12 posts

Posted 21 April 2015 - 09:04 AM

I highly disagree here. As others have said, LRMs have their place, and I would even go as far to say you can solo pug CW with one, maybe two LRM boats in your deck. It all depends on the game type. I run 2 Maddogs if it's a defense mode (Invasion or Counterattack). It's about being smart - knowing when to fire, when to reposition, picking targets, and even calculating flight time. If you aren't that skilled with LRMs, then I would advise against it in CW, but if you know what you are doing, they can be effective. LRMs don't even need to be dealing a ton of damage to be effective, if I can get mechs running for cover, that's a chance our team has to close in to fight.

#14 sycocys

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Moderate Giver
  • Moderate Giver
  • 7,599 posts

Posted 21 April 2015 - 09:49 AM

Well for you last 2 clanners, this is directed towards the IS pilots - clan LRMs are a fair bit more "usable" because the IS doesn't have anywhere near the ecm stack in dps capable mechs to field.

Even so, against clan pugs/teams that run lrm boats that stand on the other side of the field and lob missiles into the walls or fields of ams - guess who the last guys alive and trying to take on 12 are?

LRMs simply are not an effective main weapon system given the way that CW maps are designed. There's one map (Boreal) they can be somewhat useful but are nullified by anyone quick to shoot down uavs.
For pugs, especially newer to CW pugs, boating them is going to do nothing but drag your entire team down - you don't know the maps well enough, very very few come from standard understaning the concept of brawling with lrms, and as I said before and especially concerning what you will see for this event Clans will have 4+ ecm stacks on nearly every wave.

#15 Surn

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The God of Death
  • The God of Death
  • 1,073 posts
  • Twitter: Link
  • LocationSan Diego

Posted 21 April 2015 - 10:02 AM

I have run into the LRM boat faction of FRR. They are decent players, but if you are a pug I have one piece of advice.

Someone running a LRM boat may get a lot of damage if other people are locking targets, narcing, tagging, etc. However, take what they say with a grain of salt. It is like telling someone to run in front and engage the enemy while they sit back and get free shots. They may just be out to make cbills, so judge for yourself.

If you as a pub want to participate on a LRM team, your best bet is to find a spotting location, close enough to the enemy that you can get locks and bring a BAP if possible and a fast mech.

As an example, last night I moved my 3LPL TDR behind the enemy lines, hidden and began locking and calling targets over the coms and over the LRM leader. I would shoot the targets in the back, call target and as they turned they would die to LRMs. They really didn't know what hit them, and we won the entire battle because we killed 5 mechs in about 2 minutes breaking their entire strategy while sowing confusion and doubt.

If I had not been able to get in position, the match would have been a tragic loss. At the end of the match, the LRM leader touted it to the LRM strategy. He had about 2000 damage and several kills, but really never understood what happened.

#16 whiskey tango foxtrot

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Survivor
  • 1,075 posts
  • LocationWith the Wolfs

Posted 21 April 2015 - 10:09 AM

@ sycocys....thank you , excellent advice.

#17 Rabbit Blacksun

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Privateer
  • The Privateer
  • 664 posts
  • Google+: Link
  • LocationAround the world ...

Posted 21 April 2015 - 10:12 AM

few things to point out that are simply my oppinion...

1. LRM boats are not there for the kill, they are simply there to take down the enemies armor so that brawlers have a easier time. Stop telling people that they need to have x amount of kills or they should not be LRM boat pilots.

2. LRM Pilots... MOVE ... you stand still you will get wolf packed. (i've been on both sides of that ... )

3. learn your maps, Boreal can be great for missile boats, IF you know where to go. This will also help your builds. IE running SSRM or ALRM trust me it can make a wold of difference.

4. As some one said ... Back up weapons... equip them. I can easily run 70+ LRM builds and still have lasers (MG take up ammo slots as well)

5. IS pilots ... I know that the XL engine makes you so happy specially when you can almost chase down a clan light in a heavy. but you might just wanna consider not having those pesky vulnerable engine crits in your left an right torso ...

I am more then sure that there are tons of other things that people could point out but in the end it comes down to what you feel comfortable playing. Take what works best for you and go with it, if it dont work for you then dont try to do it just because some one says you should.

#18 sycocys

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Moderate Giver
  • Moderate Giver
  • 7,599 posts

Posted 21 April 2015 - 10:22 AM

Yes, I forget about that all the time because I've moved away from it in most mechs even for standard drops -

Fitting standard engines in your mechs above light is a critical thing as well. Many players can tell by what you are firing that you are running an xl (more need to see you loadout to verify) and your ST's have far less armor to take out than your CT which usually makes it totally worth them taking some fire to hold on your ST and drop a guy out of combat if not net an easy kill.

Speed is good, but if you run xl past lights you can pretty much cut your armor rating by 1/3 before you even enter the drop.

#19 Tom Sawyer

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Widow Maker
  • The Widow Maker
  • 1,384 posts
  • LocationOn your 6

Posted 21 April 2015 - 10:31 AM

1. LRM boats are not there for the kill, they are simply there to take down the enemies armor so that brawlers have a easier time. Stop telling people that they need to have x amount of kills or they should not be LRM boat pilots.

Sorry going to back my teammate on this one. CW is often more than just a quick pick up game. Often people are working for loyalty points which give a real tangible reward beyond just C-Bills. Mech bays, items, ect ect A good team works together and uses communication to great effect.

To this end a IS LRM boat can not directly support the wall of battle. If you have 3 laser boats or daka boats focusing fire on an enemy it is WAY more effective than someone spamming LRMS. Plus that enemy has one LESS target to shoot at making his fire more effective.

Like when you push through a gate. The MORE mechs you have pushing in at once the less likely you are to have the enemy focus fire on just one. If you have 1 or 2 LRM boats hanging back that leaves only 10 targets. Against a good team who knows how to call targets or focus fire you soon have a couple dead mechs who pushed and 8 shot to hell. And those LRM boats who hang back? Well here comes the enemy to take YOU down because your wall is now gone.

Granted this is a video game with big stompy robots. But with a good team such as my own unit, OLD, you get used to playing together. You find your own rhythm and style within the team. But you DO learn to play together, support each other. And for us at least LRMS are a weapon of last resort.

Shameless unit plug time. Over 25 years old. Got a twisted sense of humor? FRR? Come join us! We can help you improve your score, Show you better builds than the LRM Spam boats. And have fun :)

#20 Kenyon Burguess

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Veteran Founder
  • Veteran Founder
  • 2,619 posts
  • LocationNE PA USA

Posted 21 April 2015 - 10:37 AM

View PostParjaiSkirata, on 21 April 2015 - 09:04 AM, said:

I highly disagree here. As others have said, LRMs have their place, and I would even go as far to say you can solo pug CW with one, maybe two LRM boats in your deck. It all depends on the game type. I run 2 Maddogs if it's a defense mode (Invasion or Counterattack). It's about being smart - knowing when to fire, when to reposition, picking targets, and even calculating flight time. If you aren't that skilled with LRMs, then I would advise against it in CW, but if you know what you are doing, they can be effective. LRMs don't even need to be dealing a ton of damage to be effective, if I can get mechs running for cover, that's a chance our team has to close in to fight.
not even clans can get away with it, absolutely not for IS. there is too much ecm in a deathball, no one is gonna float down there to hold a target for you, and a uav dies before you will ever unload enough lrm ammo to scratch someones paintjob.

besides those reasons, you are taking up so much tonnage in launcher and ammo and every single bit of it is spread out damage vrs direct fire for much less tonnage. people use the bad example of making them duck for cover but ppcs, gauss, llasers make people duck for cover much, much faster because it leaves a hole in their chest vrs lobbing missles into a hillside they sidestepped behind. don't bring lrms to cw, or organized pub matches.

Edited by Geist Null, 21 April 2015 - 10:40 AM.






1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users