256 replies to this topic

[Tarogato]

I would love to see more jump sniping. I feel like we have more counters and viable alternatives today than we used to have back then, so it will be less of a problem than it used to be. I'll all for bringing jumpjets back up just a little bit, esp. for Class I and II.

[Sniper09121986]

I came into the game right before the PPCwarrior Online poptart meta and I played once or twice a week just to see if it has been fixed. Under no circumstances should this be the case ever again. That being said, the JJ that we have now are a pale shadow of what we read about in Battletech books. Also I cannot remember in any of said books an episode of firing during the jump. So I suggest to give JJ a MAJOR buff in both altitude and distance but lock up all the weapons (except AMS maybe) for the entire time in the air. It is not my suggestion, I picked it out on these forums a while ago, but I think that would be great.

[Gas Guzzler]

Screech, on 22 April 2015 - 09:09 AM, said:

Not sure how jump sniping and laser vomit are related at all. Were manatees and idea balls used in the construction of this post?

Laser vomit is the meta now.

Jump sniping was the meta before Clan lasers and quirks.

There was actually a point when the clans were first introduced, that the Clan lasers were very good, and IS jump snipers were very good. They almost countered one another. IS had the quick fire and return to cover, while Clans had crazy hit scan alphas. Then JJs and PPCs got rekt, and now some mediums can poptart with PPCs, especially when quirks are involved, but otherwise and jump sniping builds are second rate.

I would personally like jump sniping to be as effective as laser vomit when it comes more poking (slightly better JJs and faster PPCs would help this), to have more variety. FLD on one side, with more damage potential on the other side.

PGI is very scared to help poptarting though because of the QQ that it causes.

Sir Wulfrick, on 22 April 2015 - 09:16 AM, said:

Do I want to see the return of jump sniping?

NO. NEVER. NOPE.

If that ever returns I'm likely to be done with MWO for good. It wasn't tactical, it wasn't Battletech, it wasn't mechwarrior, it wasn't anything other than blatant exploitation of the jump jet system.

Why not?

What is tactical? Sitting behind a hill shooting LRMs? Getting into a ball and zerg rushing like mindless idiots?

It was actually very tactical compared to most other play styles that we have right now.

Sniper09121986, on 22 April 2015 - 09:23 AM, said:

I came into the game right before the PPCwarrior Online poptart meta and I played once or twice a week just to see if it has been fixed. Under no circumstances should this be the case ever again. That being said, the JJ that we have now are a pale shadow of what we read about in Battletech books. Also I cannot remember in any of said books an episode of firing during the jump. So I suggest to give JJ a MAJOR buff in both altitude and distance but lock up all the weapons (except AMS maybe) for the entire time in the air. It is not my suggestion, I picked it out on these forums a while ago, but I think that would be great.

I don't care about books, but it did happen once or twice, and every MechWarrior game to date has allowed firing in the air. A random locking of weapons makes no sense whatsoever.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 22 April 2015 - 09:34 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

I want the SRM meta of old back.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mister Blastman, on 22 April 2015 - 09:35 AM, said:

I want the SRM meta of old back.

Yes. More zerg rushing. Such tactics.

I wouldn't mind SRMs having tighter spread though.

[Mister Blastman]

Gas Guzzler, on 22 April 2015 - 09:37 AM, said:

Yes. More zerg rushing. Such tactics.

I wouldn't mind SRMs having tighter spread though.

Jump sniping was stupid. Hiding behind rocks is stupid. SRMs at least force you to move.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mister Blastman, on 22 April 2015 - 09:39 AM, said:

Jump sniping was stupid. Hiding behind rocks is stupid. SRMs at least force you to move.

There is a difference between static jump sniping and dynamic jump sniping.

Static jumping is stupid/boring/notactics/ not even good.

Dynamic jump sniping is not, and requires lots of movement. That is why the DS outclassed the Highlander, and then the Timber Wolf even outclassed the DS a bit, despite being hotter than the sun.

I'm not arguing for it to be dominant again, but I do think it would be a nice laser vomit counter.

Did I just coin those terms? Well yes, yes I did.

[Sniper09121986]

Gas Guzzler, on 22 April 2015 - 09:34 AM, said:

I don't care about books, but it did happen once or twice, and every MechWarrior game to date has allowed firing in the air. A random locking of weapons makes no sense whatsoever.

It is not random, it is locking of weapons in flight. The screen shake we have now serves that very purpose - not allowing you to fly and fire at the same time. Also previous MW games did not have that kind of base of casual players, min-maxers, exploiters and outright trolls that we have, so even if something was not an issue then, it is magnified out of proportion now.

[Gas Guzzler]

Sniper09121986, on 22 April 2015 - 09:43 AM, said:

It is not random, it is locking of weapons in flight. The screen shake we have now serves that very purpose - not allowing you to fly and fire at the same time. Also previous MW games did not have that kind of base of casual players, min-maxers, exploiters and outright trolls that we have, so even if something was not an issue then, it is magnified out of proportion now.

Exploiters and trolls having nothing to do with this. Nothing was "exploited" unless you are really stretching the definition of exploit to include not playing how YOU think everyone should play. In the books did they have massed shared targeting and indirect fire LRMs in the absence of C3 systems? No, but it is in the game and we all have to work with that every game.

So who is the problem then with the two remaining? Casual players or min-maxers? If jump sniping could compete with laser vomit, you would have min-maxers using laser vomit and/or jump sniping, and casuals doing what they do. I don't see how anything changes.

And it is random. Do the firing pins just disappear when you take flight so you can't shoot you ACs?

I don't get what the deal is, you are okay with one meta dominating the field and don't want a different play style to counter it?? Why not???

[Mister Blastman]

Gas Guzzler, on 22 April 2015 - 09:42 AM, said:

There is a difference between static jump sniping and dynamic jump sniping.

Static jumping is stupid/boring/notactics/ not even good.

Dynamic jump sniping is not, and requires lots of movement. That is why the DS outclassed the Highlander, and then the Timber Wolf even outclassed the DS a bit, despite being hotter than the sun.

I'm not arguing for it to be dominant again, but I do think it would be a nice laser vomit counter.

Did I just coin those terms? Well yes, yes I did.

I think I have a vague idea how to jump snipe...



And I hated it. It felt good to be a God, but, well, it got stale. And boring. And that sucks.

[warner2]

The main issue is that PPCs were a little over-nerfed. They should probably be given a little, just a little, love to mix things up a bit. Lasers are just a bit too dominant (heh, remember a prior MechWarrior game where that was true?).

[Gas Guzzler]

Mister Blastman, on 22 April 2015 - 09:49 AM, said:

I think I have a vague idea how to jump snipe...



And I hated it. It felt good to be a God, but, well, it got stale. And boring. And that sucks.

Yes you have showed me that video before. And if HoL or SJR or any of the other high level teams was on the other team you wouldn't have felt like a god anymore.

Like I said though, I'm not advocating it be dominant, I'm just advocating it be closer to the level that laser vomit is now. It would be less stale now to be able to do both. And I gotta say, the brawl zerg rush works just fine in coordinated play, and is the preferred strategy when the team isn't stacked with experienced players.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 22 April 2015 - 09:53 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Gas Guzzler, on 22 April 2015 - 09:42 AM, said:

There is a difference between static jump sniping and dynamic jump sniping.

Static jumping is stupid/boring/notactics/ not even good.

Dynamic jump sniping is not, and requires lots of movement. That is why the DS outclassed the Highlander, and then the Timber Wolf even outclassed the DS a bit, despite being hotter than the sun.

I'm not arguing for it to be dominant again, but I do think it would be a nice laser vomit counter.

Did I just coin those terms? Well yes, yes I did.

Because you do not like them does not make them a non tactic.

Tactic:
: an action or method that is planned and used to achieve a particular goal

: the activity or skill of organizing and moving soldiers and equipment in a military battle

Tactic: Take cover, and shoot the enemy.
Tactic: a small group go around West and attack when you hear shots fired.
Tactic: Pop Up over that hill and shoot whoever you can see.

[Gas Guzzler]

Joseph Mallan, on 22 April 2015 - 09:54 AM, said:

Because you do not like them does not make them a non tactic.

Tactic:
: an action or method that is planned and used to achieve a particular goal

: the activity or skill of organizing and moving soldiers and equipment in a military battle

Tactic: Take cover, and shoot the enemy.
Tactic: a small group go around West and attack when you hear shots fired.
Tactic: Pop Up over that hill and shoot whoever you can see.

Hey I am the one advocating trying to bring this up to compete with the current meta.

I don't know if you read my whole post, but yeah I realize that, but some tactics require more thought than others. Staying mobile and knowing where to go and where to pop up, is a more complex tactic than standing in one spot hopping up and down hoping they miss.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 22 April 2015 - 09:57 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Gas Guzzler, on 22 April 2015 - 09:56 AM, said:

Hey I am the one advocating trying to bring this up to compete with the current meta.

I don't know if you read my whole post, but yeah I realize that, but some tactics require more thought than others. Staying mobile and knowing where to go and where to pop up, is a more complex tactic than standing in one spot hopping up and down hoping they miss.

The more you have to think, the more that can go wrong. K.I.S.S. and B.R.A.S.S. are two tactical staples.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 22 April 2015 - 09:59 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Poptarting let's you jump, popbriefly into view, alpha to heatcap and fall back in to cover to cool. If at all viable it will trump any other fighting tool because it let's you do damage without fear of accurate counter fire.

It was horrible and a **** mechanic that should never happen again. I'm all for fixing jjs if poptarting is removed as viable but I'd rather jjs get removed completely than poptarting return. I destroys any point of any other design or build and reduces viable mechs to whatever does it best.

[Mister Blastman]

Gas Guzzler, on 22 April 2015 - 09:52 AM, said:

Yes you have showed me that video before. And if HoL or SJR or any of the other high level teams was on the other team you wouldn't have felt like a god anymore.

Like I said though, I'm not advocating it be dominant, I'm just advocating it be closer to the level that laser vomit is now. It would be less stale now to be able to do both. And I gotta say, the brawl zerg rush works just fine in coordinated play, and is the preferred strategy when the team isn't stacked with experienced players.

If it were HoL or SJR I would have been dead. There's no way I can compete against 6 or 7 players of my caliber on the other side. I would have lasted seconds.

Jump sniping should never, ever come back except as a purely specialized tactic with extreme downsides to it. Jump jets need to be fixed, but so does terrain movement for non-jump jet 'mechs.

So... if we want better jump-jets... we must simultaneously buff the crap out of 'mechs that have no jump-jets by removing their terrain penalties.

That's the only way there will be any fair balance between the two. That would also simultaneously guarantee a non-jj 'mech would have movement advantages on the ground allowing them to close and once they do, completely outmaneuver the jj 'mech up close.

But that wasn't the entire problem with jump-sniping. The other half of the problem was sniping weapons being as effective, or more effective than close range weapons up close.

[Sniper09121986]

Gas Guzzler, on 22 April 2015 - 09:48 AM, said:

I don't get what the deal is, you are okay with one meta dominating the field and don't want a different play style to counter it?? Why not???

What have I said about the current meta, pray tell? I was only talking about poptarting. Also poptarting is not a playstyle. It is a cheatstyle. The severity of the problem as it used to be is well-defined here:

Spoiler

[Black Ivan]

For me option 4. Jump sniping was one of the worst things ever in MWO and it should stay dead and buried where it was left.

[CDLord HHGD]

Joseph Mallan, on 22 April 2015 - 09:58 AM, said:

The more you have to think, the more that can go wrong. K.I.S.S. and B.R.A.S.S. are two tactical staples.

Is BRASS in reference to the shooting methodology (Breathe Relax Aim Slack Squeeze) or something else? (I'm also a fan of RTFM).