39 replies to this topic

[TeteSP]

Since i test and do some kills with the trial spider,i decided that my first build mech will have the same weaponery,and that is cicada 3c. Other thing than that,what do u think about machine gun mechs? Are useful? Or u will not like on ur team one of those mechs?

[Tylerchu]

Machine guns are powerful in groups. Mostly because people ignore them because they cause very little damage and almost no screen shake (there is some, but it's 8*10^-5 or 8e-5). Make sure you have at least four and you should be alright. Pair them up with a pulse laser or heavier autocannon so that you can pew-pew off armor then machine-gun the internals. Or, if you're totin' lots of MG ammo and manage to survive to endgame, you'll often find yourself ignored because you have "useless weapons" and can do some serious damage. I once chewed through an almost fresh Atlas near endgame with four machine guns; he was hanging back and came forward at the end and decided to chase some lights while my Jager followed behind and poured machine gun fire into his back. He ignored me the entire time.

[grendeldog]

They are very powerful in the right setting.

Take the Areow for example - this is the Blackjack hero. It has 2 ML, 1 LPL, and 6 machine guns! One of those got behind my Stalker on Crimson Strait the other day, and I went from pretty well fresh to cored to dead in about 25 seconds. The power of the machine guns lies in their ability to crit things - to damage things in critical slots like weapons or heatsinks - when there is no longer any armor to protect that part of your mech's body.

They are less effective in smaller numbers. For example, my Timber Wolf prime is a straight-up laservomit machine: 2 CLPLs and 4 CERMLs. But I also have two machine guns, though only a ton of ammo. And so I can't do what the Arrow can do, but it still helps in a brawl because they are heat neutral, and I have killed mechs that way after I stripped their center torsos with my las.

Two is the limit though; I would not carry less than two, as one is simy not enough fire to be effective - even when armor is stripped.

So they are conditionally very powerful. In groups of four or more they can be used as an actual primary or secondary weapon. In groups of two they should be a backup weapon, but there should never be only one, because the power of these weapons is exponential-ish (not actually, but that's how it feels as a pilot when you either have MGs or face a mech that has a ton of MGs).

[TeteSP]

Thanks for not telling me that this mechs arent useless,i play mostly of the time as scout/assistant mech and when a friendly mech attack an enemy mech,i assist,and with luck i have the kill

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...9dfb6bfdde04191

This is how i have my actual cicada 3c. I noticed that vs non armored mechs have more power,i mean vs internal structure. Its a beast

[Tylerchu]

TeteSP, on 24 April 2015 - 09:11 PM, said:

Thanks for not telling me that this mechs arent useless,i play mostly of the time as scout/assistant mech and when a friendly mech attack an enemy mech,i assist,and with luck i have the kill

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...9dfb6bfdde04191

This is how i have my actual cicada 3c. I noticed that vs non armored mechs have more power,i mean vs internal structure. Its a beast

Double heat sink it. (DHS)
One ton of AMS ammo is enough (especially if you're going to do any sort of damage because you have short range weapons)
When you put DHS on, put all ammo in the legs and/or the center torso
I'm assuming this is your first mech so I'll modify it keeping the original engine. I'm also assuming you want all four machine guns, so the only things I'll be adjusting are AMS, armor, and the energy weapon.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...4b53746f57a662d
This is my make.

[jss78]

The thing about MGs is that even a large number of them with ammo don't weigh that much. About 5 tons for 6xMG including enough ammo. so if you have the hardpoints, you can bring them as a situational secondary armament while bringing something totally different for main armament. An example of this is the BJ-A which has three energy hardpoints also, which in themselves can be plenty on a 45-tonner. The 6xMG array is purely secondary.

I've been running the following BJ-A with pretty nice damage averages in low-Elo PUG:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...25dfda9abd85614

2xERLL for long-range early-game poking (benefiting of the energy range quirk), and an MPL grouped with the MGs for extra punch. It is not as situational as you'd expect an 6xMG mech to be: I've had 700+ damage games on Alpine Peaks and such. It really shines, though, when your team is the one doing the late-game mopping up, as you can get obscene damage against mechs that've lost their armour.

[Ialdabaoth]

I've been debating this one lately:

KGC-000

Other than the PPC, it's practically heat-neutral; the PPC+Gauss is for early-game sniping, then once everyone's cored, the SRMs and MG's tear through crit slots. It has almost no SRM ammunition, because I expect to do most of my work with the MG's, but might occasionally need to quickly take down a cored-but-aggressive heavy.

[Satan n stuff]

TeteSP, on 24 April 2015 - 07:34 PM, said:

Since i test and do some kills with the trial spider,i decided that my first build mech will have the same weaponery,and that is cicada 3c. Other thing than that,what do u think about machine gun mechs? Are useful? Or u will not like on ur team one of those mechs?

machine guns are generally a liability if you don't know what you're doing, but they can be useful.
You'll want to avoid firing them at targets that still have armor on the section you're shooting, for the following reasons.

• Machine guns deal about twice as much damage on average against internal structure as they do against armor.
  
• You can fire machine guns at a target or you can torso twist to spread damage, but you usually can't do both at once.
  
• If the target is sufficiently damaged, they will probably torso twist to prevent damage to their vital sections, leaving you free to focus on shooting any exposed vulnerable areas because the target is no longer returning fire.

Add these thing up, and you get this:

• Fire machine guns at a target with full armor and you'll end up facetanking all of their firepower and dying with a destroyed center torso and everything else still fully armored, this is a massive waste of a mech.
  
• Fire machine guns at a badly damaged target and you'll force them on the defensive, if they don't fight back they'll die eventually and if they do they'll die even faster.

You absolutely need to have enough machine guns to make them work or all that goes out the window, I'd suggest using no less than three, four is preferable.

One or two can work but at that point you're not so much dealing damage as you are pretending to deal damage. It sometimes works but I wouldn't count on it.
You can have more than four machine guns but currently the only mechs with that option are the "Arrow" Hero mech which is intended to carry machine guns ( and costs real money ) and certain clan omnimechs that have far more powerful configurations available.

Edited by Satan n stuff, 25 April 2015 - 11:57 AM.

[jss78]

Ialdabaoth, on 25 April 2015 - 10:56 AM, said:

I've been debating this one lately:

KGC-000

Other than the PPC, it's practically heat-neutral; the PPC+Gauss is for early-game sniping, then once everyone's cored, the SRMs and MG's tear through crit slots. It has almost no SRM ammunition, because I expect to do most of my work with the MG's, but might occasionally need to quickly take down a cored-but-aggressive heavy.

This may not help you reach a decision, but I see occasional quad (or hex?) MG KGC's in PUG, and they look pretty damn butch stomping around with those MGs firing.

(Would it make sense to replace the ASRM6 with 2 x SRM4 which weigh the same, since you do have the hardpoints? You'll fire two more missiles per salvo, and since SRM4's have a tighter spread you might get by without Artemis. Or alternatively, SRM4+SRM2 and add AMS with 0.5 t ammo, which also weighs the same.)

Edited by jss78, 25 April 2015 - 11:25 PM.

[bad arcade kitty]

1 machine gun has 0.8 dps, a gauss has 3.16 dps
so, 4 mgs have a better dps than a gauss, 3 mgs have a better dps than a large laser... but they are damage over time weapon, not instant damage of course
but they don't make any heat and have additional chance to do internal damage

[Koniving]

TeteSP, on 24 April 2015 - 07:34 PM, said:

Since i test and do some kills with the trial spider,i decided that my first build mech will have the same weaponery,and that is cicada 3c. Other thing than that,what do u think about machine gun mechs? Are useful? Or u will not like on ur team one of those mechs?

MGs usually work pretty well. But to get the most out of them you will want to have a weapon that can also have a more immediate punch.

A PPC or ER PPC accompanied by 4 MGs is a pretty good choice. It's also a common one. Alternatively consider a Large Pulse Laser if fears of missing with your PPC gets to you.

Pay close attention to the quirks associated with MGs on the Cicada and the Spider. The two of them will have very different results which can be better in some ways and inferior in others (but still better than ~most~ mechs with MGs).

I personally enjoy the Ember, which is a 4 MG Firestarter. 2 SL, 1 MPL, and 4 MGs on a standard engine Firestarter exploiting the hitboxes (30 front ST armor, 2 rear ST armor, very high CT front) and the thing tanks like a 50 ton Centurion in a tiny 35 ton package.

Anyway use the PPC or LPL to punch or cut holes in the enemy armor, and let the MGs rip right into it. Feel free to MG them while cutting them open, too. It helps things along.

Note: To get the best effect out of your MGs, do NOT lead the target, ever. MGs are a "Hitscan" weapon, they effectively work like lasers. Ignore the particle effect, every MG hit is instant with zero travel time.

[Anassi]

Satan n stuff, on 25 April 2015 - 11:56 AM, said:

You can have more than four machine guns but currently the only mechs with that option are the "Arrow" Hero mech which is intended to carry machine guns ( and costs real money ) and certain clan omnimechs that have far more powerful configurations available.

The KGC-000 can also carry up to six MGs. I personally don't think it's worth it but I have seen videos of people doing reasonably well with it.

[jss78]

Anassi, on 26 April 2015 - 01:54 AM, said:

The KGC-000 can also carry up to six MGs. I personally don't think it's worth it but I have seen videos of people doing reasonably well with it.

And the JM6-DD ... I've also seen videos of people doing well with that, with something heavy in the two energy hardpoints. But I guess it doesn't make much sense now, as the BJ-A can effectively carry the same weapon load, while only using a medium mech slot in the team.

[TeteSP]

I appreciate this long conversation,this means that MG users have no low population,and its good!! U dont imagine the pleasure to kill a half injured Warhawk in battlefield with an only medium mech with the machine guns. And destroy a lot of internal structure parts with the machine guns too (well in my case not much components i destroyed but i enjoy every time i did it ) Its good to know that people think like me,machinegun mechs are beasts vs weak targets,and this thread show how this low damage/but serius weapons works in battlefield

[TeteSP]

Ialdabaoth, on 25 April 2015 - 10:56 AM, said:

I've been debating this one lately:

KGC-000

Other than the PPC, it's practically heat-neutral; the PPC+Gauss is for early-game sniping, then once everyone's cored, the SRMs and MG's tear through crit slots. It has almost no SRM ammunition, because I expect to do most of my work with the MG's, but might occasionally need to quickly take down a cored-but-aggressive heavy.

1 ton of MG AMMO with 4 MGs equipped,erase from ur mech before u noticed it.

[TeteSP]

Satan n stuff, on 25 April 2015 - 11:56 AM, said:

machine guns are generally a liability if you don't know what you're doing, but they can be useful.
You'll want to avoid firing them at targets that still have armor on the section you're shooting, for the following reasons.

• Machine guns deal about twice as much damage on average against internal structure as they do against armor.
  
• You can fire machine guns at a target or you can torso twist to spread damage, but you usually can't do both at once.
  
• If the target is sufficiently damaged, they will probably torso twist to prevent damage to their vital sections, leaving you free to focus on shooting any exposed vulnerable areas because the target is no longer returning fire.

Add these thing up, and you get this:

• Fire machine guns at a target with full armor and you'll end up facetanking all of their firepower and dying with a destroyed center torso and everything else still fully armored, this is a massive waste of a mech.
  
• Fire machine guns at a badly damaged target and you'll force them on the defensive, if they don't fight back they'll die eventually and if they do they'll die even faster.

You absolutely need to have enough machine guns to make them work or all that goes out the window, I'd suggest using no less than three, four is preferable.


One or two can work but at that point you're not so much dealing damage as you are pretending to deal damage. It sometimes works but I wouldn't count on it.
You can have more than four machine guns but currently the only mechs with that option are the "Arrow" Hero mech which is intended to carry machine guns ( and costs real money ) and certain clan omnimechs that have far more powerful configurations available.

I noticed all u said since i change to full armored mechs vs weak mechs. Weak mechs die faster vs MGs. This reminds me that i need to master my skills with that weapons,to be a master scavenger when enemy mechs starting to be injured hahahaha

[TeteSP]

Koniving, on 26 April 2015 - 12:20 AM, said:

MGs usually work pretty well. But to get the most out of them you will want to have a weapon that can also have a more immediate punch.

A PPC or ER PPC accompanied by 4 MGs is a pretty good choice. It's also a common one. Alternatively consider a Large Pulse Laser if fears of missing with your PPC gets to you.

In my case,and with my tonnage (and upgrades) i only can carry 4 machineguns and a medium pulse laser. One reason for this: max tonnage dont give me a chance to equip a larger weapon,like PPC or ER Large Laser. U can see in this same thread my loadout of my Cicada. Ive put some tons of MG AMMO,2 tons of AMS ammo,4 machine guns,medium pulse laser,AMS and a XL engine,with some heat sinks that engine force me to equip.

[LennStar]

jss78, on 26 April 2015 - 02:15 AM, said:

And the JM6-DD ... I've also seen videos of people doing well with that, with something heavy in the two energy hardpoints. But I guess it doesn't make much sense now, as the BJ-A can effectively carry the same weapon load, while only using a medium mech slot in the team.

The Advantage of the 6-DD is that you can go with standard engine - and a standard engine Jager is pretty hard to kill (was even harder before they made the CT a bit bigger)
I woud say a DD is going with the big firepower while the BJ (all of tehm btw) is a flanker and back-shooter. Even with 3 ML you can get an back armor spot open if you are lucky and then you just rip through with the MGs.

[Satan n stuff]

Anassi, on 26 April 2015 - 01:54 AM, said:

The KGC-000 can also carry up to six MGs. I personally don't think it's worth it but I have seen videos of people doing reasonably well with it.

jss78, on 26 April 2015 - 02:15 AM, said:

And the JM6-DD ... I've also seen videos of people doing well with that, with something heavy in the two energy hardpoints. But I guess it doesn't make much sense now, as the BJ-A can effectively carry the same weapon load, while only using a medium mech slot in the team.

Forgot about those, but you really don't want to use 6 machine guns with them, they have far better options for ballistic weapons. You can do 4 if you really want to, but both of those mechs have the tonnage to fit heavier ballistics with rather heavy weapons in the other hardpoints and any other ballistic weapon is better than a machine gun if you have the free tonnage for it.

[Koniving]

TeteSP, on 24 April 2015 - 09:11 PM, said:

Thanks for not telling me that this mechs arent useless,i play mostly of the time as scout/assistant mech and when a friendly mech attack an enemy mech,i assist,and with luck i have the kill

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...9dfb6bfdde04191

This is how i have my actual cicada 3c. I noticed that vs non armored mechs have more power,i mean vs internal structure. Its a beast

TeteSP, on 26 April 2015 - 03:10 AM, said:

In my case,and with my tonnage (and upgrades) i only can carry 4 machineguns and a medium pulse laser. One reason for this: max tonnage dont give me a chance to equip a larger weapon,like PPC or ER Large Laser. U can see in this same thread my loadout of my Cicada. Ive put some tons of MG AMMO,2 tons of AMS ammo,4 machine guns,medium pulse laser,AMS and a XL engine,with some heat sinks that engine force me to equip.

You're relying heavily on speed. Which isn't bad... but when using weapons where you need to reliably and effectively hold your weapons on target you'll have to slow down frequently to be able to use them in a meaningful way. Also a single ton of ammo will last you about a minute to a minute and a half of constant fire depending on the mech when considering 4 MGs.

You have enough to literally stand still and MG for almost 5 minutes straight which you will never get to do within a match.

You also lack crit-padding, meaning that incoming fire will have a very high chance of destroying your ammunition and causing ammo explosions.

Consider this. Same engine. The DHS upgrade is more for the crit-padding properties. (The more slots it consumes the more likely it will be destroyed before the section is. Losing a heatsink has little meaning in terms of this build. But losing those guns is bad news.)

Two tons of ammo will be ~MORE~ than enough to last you a 15 minute match with the power of the ER PPC behind you. It still has the high speed as well. (If you were building for tabletop, you'd only want a single ton of ammo and it'd last you 8 minutes 15 seconds of constant fire. Here, the two tons of ammo will last you roughly 2 minutes at the least. The thing about combat is you will not constantly be in a position to fire and in a Cicada, every second you spend close enough to shoot the MGs is another second that you could die in a single shot).