16 replies to this topic

[Tlords]

As I was waiting for CW to fight the clans off of Tukayyid, someone had an ECM idea, that makes too much sense to me.

ECM is too good. For anyone who thinks it is not, ask yourself if you could have anything on your mech, what would it be...? Chances are its ECM. Becasue of this, its current emplimintation is too good. No tradeoff for its awesomness.

Here is the idea. Keep ECM like it is today. Except when you have it on, it stops your mech from dissipating heat. You can run or walk your mech, but jumping or firing... you do not lose that heat. You have to shift out of ECM providing coverage to disipate that heat. So as a sniper you'll get 2 - 3 shots off, but not much more.

Think of it like this... ECM is doing everything to prevent your mech from being seen, as well as providing coverage to everyone around you. Part of this is minimizing your heat signature. For lore reasons, it could only be on certain mechs because their entire mech is designed to minimize its signature.

Sounds like an easy fix. Yes you can provide ECM, but if you want to fight... you have to be careful. I think this makes ECM mechs more specialized in their roles...

[DrunkenAntichrist]

http://mwomercs.com/...ecm-suggestion/

[Nightmare1]

ECM haters...

I actually only own two ECM Mechs out of the 77 that I own as a total. I really don't think that ECM is overpowered and don't have much trouble killing ECM'ed Mechs. Even when I play as an LRM boat, TAG, NARC, and BAP make it quite easy to counter ECM.

I think folks just need to start fighting smarter and not harder. If you face an enemy team with multiple ECM Mechs, coordinate to bring them down first.

[Koniving]

An idea, yes.
A good one... probably not. It'd be really difficult to explain you have to engage a "Counter ECM" mode on your ECM to activate your heatsinks.

It reminds me of certain mechanics where if you're doing this you can't do that... but the cross between the two makes about as much sense as if you want your drink to be cold you need to take the ice out with a fork not a spoon.
________________________
I do, however, highly encourage you to keep thinking of ideas. Think not only of it as a mechanic in a game, but is it easy to explain, does it make sense... would you understand it if no one explained it at all as if it were common sense?

As an example, in the DayZ standalone we didn't get bandages. I'm bleeding. In real life in a situation with serious bleeding if no medical supplies are available, the first thing I'd probably do is use my shirt to help soak the blood. Bam, there's an idea, what if I could use my shirt to stop the bleeding? Well it'd be a waste of a whole shirt, I'd need to change bandages every now and then. What if I tore it into rags?

And thus, I discovered completely on my own how to make a crude bandage in a game that had no instructions without looking it up. It "made sense."

Not only does the mechanic need to work, need to balance, but it needs to make sense with logical applications.

How the discovery really happened (and seriously I had never done this before, it was just a thought that came to mind given how we have clothes in separate pieces instead of one costume).

This was super early DayZ Standalone. (Near the end in the final scene, what happens after drinking disinfectants by accident, and the conversation of a dying man that ensues.)

Edited by Koniving, 26 April 2015 - 12:08 AM.

[JaxRiot]

This is my favorite suggestion Ive seen so far

Lily from animove, on 23 April 2015 - 05:57 AM, said:

Why is ecm then not simply increasing missile spread by 50% for every mech under the bubble? that would by far be a load more true ecm like and balance ecm a lot more.

http://mwomercs.com/...missile-spread/

[Chagatay]

I like the ghost ECM idea better (cumulative stacking penalties)*. Also fits the PGI ghost-like mechanic's portfolio.

* Read it in the forums way back but am too lazy to search for it.

[JaxRiot]

Chagatay, on 25 April 2015 - 04:58 PM, said:

I like the ghost ECM idea better (cumulative stacking penalties)*. Also fits the PGI ghost-like mechanic's portfolio.

* Read it in the forums way back but am too lazy to search for it.

Stealth Armor is supposed to generate heat.

And since PGI's version of ECM is actually Angel ECM combined with free Stealth Armor (plus the added bonus of granting all nearby friendlies the exact same benefits of Angel EM combined with free Stealth Armor) , it really should be generating heat atleast.

Edited by JaxRiot, 25 April 2015 - 05:10 PM.

[Jaeger Gonzo]

How about just stick to what BT is saying about that.

[Mystere]

Tlords, on 25 April 2015 - 03:04 PM, said:

Except when you have it on, it stops your mech from dissipating heat.

You might as well have said "Remove ECM from the game". <smh>

I'd just rather have ECM get a third mode I'm dubbing "Ghost". When on, it generates the signature of an enemy lance or company.

Edited by Mystere, 25 April 2015 - 08:57 PM.

[Xetelian]

ECM doesn't bother me and it makes up 5 of my total of 40 mechs.

Moving with a group, calling targets and seismic (wall hack) work well against a team with ECM.

Making sure your missile boat brings tag will help.

[STEF_]

Mystere, on 25 April 2015 - 08:51 PM, said:

You might as well have said "Remove ECM from the game". <smh>

I'd just rather have ECM get a third mode I'm dubbing "Ghost". When on, it generates the signature of an enemy lance or company.

http://www.sarna.net...ignature_System
(and note that null signature system doesn't cloack friendly unit)
(also note how much pgi likes to break the rules)

JaxRiot, on 25 April 2015 - 05:07 PM, said:

Stealth Armor is supposed to generate heat.

And since PGI's version of ECM is actually Angel ECM combined with free Stealth Armor (plus the added bonus of granting all nearby friendlies the exact same benefits of Angel EM combined with free Stealth Armor) , it really should be generating heat atleast.

....and angelecm+stealth armor combined don't cloack friendly units.

[Mystere]

Stefka Kerensky, on 25 April 2015 - 09:49 PM, said:

http://www.sarna.net...ignature_System
(and note that null signature system doesn't cloack friendly unit)
(also note how much pgi likes to break the rules)

I know what Sarna says. But considering MWO's ECM is entirely different, they might as well add a third mode so that disrupt mode is hopefully on for only a third of the time.

Call it creative license.

[JaxRiot]

Stefka Kerensky, on 25 April 2015 - 09:49 PM, said:

http://www.sarna.net...ignature_System
(and note that null signature system doesn't cloack friendly unit)
(also note how much pgi likes to break the rules)


....and angelecm+stealth armor combined don't cloak friendly units.

You are absolutely correct, and I am well aware that it is not supposed to.

[Juodas Varnas]

PGI doesn't care. A lot of people hated the implementation of ECM since the day it was released.

Nothing changed. Nothing will ever change, The same way they're never going to rescale the stupidly oversized mechs, they're not going to work on hitboxes, they're not going to fix jump jets. But they will probably add more mechs. So yeah.

[Strum Wealh]

JaxRiot, on 25 April 2015 - 05:07 PM, said:

Stealth Armor is supposed to generate heat.

Technically, neither Stealth Armor nor the Null Signature System (the latter of which being what the former was an attempt to replicate) actually generate heat on their own - in both cases, what they actually do is shunt the heat generated by the 'Mechs other systems (myomers, weapons, jump jets, etc) in a series of "baffels" built into the 'Mech as part of the SA/NSS, which are then used to release the heat into the environment in a slower & more controlled manner, thus substantially reducing the thermal signature of the 'Mech (reflected in the NullSig gameplay rules as "... heat-seeking weapons (such as Heat-Seeking Missiles) calculate their to-hit modifiers against the unit as though it is 8 points cooler than it actually is..." and the Infrared Imager rules as "...[the Infrared Imager] also forces the controlling player of any hostile units to roll 2D6 for each hidden unit on the battlefield, revealing the unit on any result of 8+ unless the unit shutdown without an overheat level, or is actively using a Null-Signature, Void-Signature, or Stealth Armor System...").

JaxRiot, on 25 April 2015 - 05:07 PM, said:

And since PGI's version of ECM is actually Angel ECM combined with free Stealth Armor (plus the added bonus of granting all nearby friendlies the exact same benefits of Angel EM combined with free Stealth Armor) , it really should be generating heat atleast.

MWO's implementation of the Guardian ECM Suite (and its Clan-built counterpart) does not mirror the primary, unique aspects of either the Null Signature System or the Stealth Armor system.

As noted above, the primary distinguishing benefit of NSS & SA is the ability to deceive "infrared imagers" (that is, thermographic cameras) and "heat-seeking" (that is, infrared homing) weapon systems.
If MWO's ECM system were imitating NSS/SA, the result would be that ECM-equipped 'Mechs WOULD NOT "show-up"/"glow" to the same degree as other (e.g. non-ECM-equipped) 'Mechs when seen in Thermal Vision mode.
Since ECM-equipped still "glow" just as brightly as their non-ECM-equipped counterparts when observed in Thermal Vision mode, we can plainly see that MWO's ECM implementation is not incorporating the defining elements of either the Null Signature System or the Stealth Armor system.

On top of that, MWO's implementation of the Guardian ECM Suite (and its Clan-built counterpart) does not employ any of the unique characteristics of the Angel ECM Suite - everything the MWO implementation of ECM does is part of the abilities specifically attributed to Guardian and/or part of the set of abilities common to all ECM suites (including Guardian, Clan ECM, Angel, and the ECM components of the "Combined/Composite Electronic Warfare Suites" (the Capellan Electronic Warfare Equipment, the Clan-built Watchdog CEWS, and the Society/Clan-built Nova CEWS)).

Spoiler

The canon abilities of the Guardian ECM Suite include...

• Generates an effect bubble with a radius of 180 meters (see page 134 of Total Warfare), doubled when in a region characterized by electromagnetic interference (see page 55 of Tactical Operations)
  
• Nullifies the effects of Artemis IV FCSs (TacOps is somewhat unclear as to whether Artemis V is affected to a lesser degree by Guardian (as Artemis V's descriptive text implies some level of effect), or not affected at all by Guardian (in contrast to being affected by Angel ECM, a contrast implied by Angel's gameplay rules)); see pg. 134 of Total Warfare and pg. 283 of Tactical Operations
  
• Nullifies the effects of Beagle Active Probes, but NOT those of Bloodhound Active Probes; see pg 134 of Total Warfare and pg. 278 of Tactical Operations
  
• Nullifies the effects of Narc and iNarc beacon pods; see pg. 134 of Total Warfare
  
• Nullifies the effects of C3 and C3i systems (but NOT C3 Boosted systems); see pg. 134 of Total Warfare and pgs. 297-298 of Tactical Operations
  
• Affects detectability and identification via sensors other than IR, MagScan, and Seismic (see the "ECM/Stealth Modifiers Table" and pages 224-225 of Tactical Operations)
  
• Generates an ECCM bubble capable of negating the ECM effects of a single a single other Guardian ECM Suite or similar system (or one half of an Angel ECM Suite if both components are set to ECM mode); see pgs. 100-101 of Tactical Operations
  
• Generates ghost targets; see pgs. 101-102 of Tactical Operations
  
• Allows for the functioning of Stealth Armor System and Void Signature System (neither of which will operate at all unless either Guardian or Angel is installed); see pg. 142 of Total Warfare and pgs. 348-349 of Tactical Operations
  
• Affects the effectiveness of enemy automated weapon emplacements (Tactical Operations, pg. 133)
  
• Affects enemy communications systems (including Command Consoles, Mobile HQs, and Satellite Uplinks) and related bonuses (Tactical Operations, pgs. 195/196)

Angel ECM (Tactical Operations, pg. 279)[list]
[*]"Derived from captured Clan technology, research on the Angel ECM Suite began shortly after the Battle of Luthien as part of an effort to counter the increasingly sophisticated electronic warfare systems of the modern battlefield. Essentially a boosted, broader-spectrum version of the Guardian ECM, the Angel was shelved numerous times due to cost overruns and ultimately saved only with aid from ComStar."
[*]"The Angel ECM Suite works like standard ECM, but can also block the Bloodhound Active Probe, Artemis V and C3 Booster Systems, and even negates the locking systems of Streak missiles. Streak missiles fired into or through a hostile Angel ECM bubble will not fire if the to-hit roll fails, but on a successful Streak launcher attack, the attacker must roll on the Cluster table as though the launcher were a standard (non-Streak) model."
[*]"Units equipped with Stealth Armor can use the Angel ECM in place of the Guardian ECM for the same effect, using the same rules."
[*]"If the amount of friendly ECCM in a hex is equal to or greater than the enemy ECM in that hex, ECM does not function in that hex. For this purpose, the Angel ECM suite counts as two ECM or ECCM suites, or the player can choose to run the Angel at 1 ECM and 1 ECCM." (TacOps, pg. 100)
[*]"An Angel ECM Suite can be tuned to be 1 ECM or 1 ECCM while it generates ghost targets." (TacOps, pg. 102)

MWO's ECM does not function as two independently-operable ECM suites (that is, it cannot disrupt AND counter SIMULTANEOUSLY), nor does it cause Streaks to dumb-fire (which is a wholly different situation from preventing sensor detection & subsequent sensor-based locks), nor does it interfere with the more-advanced systems that are able to (more-easily) overcome Guardian (as those more-advanced systems) are not implemented in MWO; as such, MWO's ECM suited do not do any of the things that actually make Angel distinct from Guardian, which makes the equating of them a falsehood.

[JaxRiot]

Strum Wealh, on 26 April 2015 - 08:32 AM, said:

Technically, neither Stealth Armor nor the Null Signature System (the latter of which being what the former was an attempt to replicate) actually generate heat on their own - in both cases, what they actually do is shunt the heat generated by the 'Mechs other systems (myomers, weapons, jump jets, etc) in a series of "baffels" built into the 'Mech as part of the SA/NSS, which are then used to release the heat into the environment in a slower & more controlled manner, thus substantially reducing the thermal signature of the 'Mech (reflected in the NullSig gameplay rules as "... heat-seeking weapons (such as Heat-Seeking Missiles) calculate their to-hit modifiers against the unit as though it is 8 points cooler than it actually is..." and the Infrared Imager rules as "...[the Infrared Imager] also forces the controlling player of any hostile units to roll 2D6 for each hidden unit on the battlefield, revealing the unit on any result of 8+ unless the unit shutdown without an overheat level, or is actively using a Null-Signature, Void-Signature, or Stealth Armor System...").


MWO's implementation of the Guardian ECM Suite (and its Clan-built counterpart) does not mirror the primary, unique aspects of either the Null Signature System or the Stealth Armor system.

As noted above, the primary distinguishing benefit of NSS & SA is the ability to deceive "infrared imagers" (that is, thermographic cameras) and "heat-seeking" (that is, infrared homing) weapon systems.
If MWO's ECM system were imitating NSS/SA, the result would be that ECM-equipped 'Mechs WOULD NOT "show-up"/"glow" to the same degree as other (e.g. non-ECM-equipped) 'Mechs when seen in Thermal Vision mode.
Since ECM-equipped still "glow" just as brightly as their non-ECM-equipped counterparts when observed in Thermal Vision mode, we can plainly see that MWO's ECM implementation is not incorporating the defining elements of either the Null Signature System or the Stealth Armor system.

On top of that, MWO's implementation of the Guardian ECM Suite (and its Clan-built counterpart) does not employ any of the unique characteristics of the Angel ECM Suite - everything the MWO implementation of ECM does is part of the abilities specifically attributed to Guardian and/or part of the set of abilities common to all ECM suites (including Guardian, Clan ECM, Angel, and the ECM components of the "Combined/Composite Electronic Warfare Suites" (the Capellan Electronic Warfare Equipment, the Clan-built Watchdog CEWS, and the Society/Clan-built Nova CEWS)).

Spoiler

The canon abilities of the Guardian ECM Suite include...

• Generates an effect bubble with a radius of 180 meters (see page 134 of Total Warfare), doubled when in a region characterized by electromagnetic interference (see page 55 of Tactical Operations)
  
• Nullifies the effects of Artemis IV FCSs (TacOps is somewhat unclear as to whether Artemis V is affected to a lesser degree by Guardian (as Artemis V's descriptive text implies some level of effect), or not affected at all by Guardian (in contrast to being affected by Angel ECM, a contrast implied by Angel's gameplay rules)); see pg. 134 of Total Warfare and pg. 283 of Tactical Operations
  
• Nullifies the effects of Beagle Active Probes, but NOT those of Bloodhound Active Probes; see pg 134 of Total Warfare and pg. 278 of Tactical Operations
  
• Nullifies the effects of Narc and iNarc beacon pods; see pg. 134 of Total Warfare
  
• Nullifies the effects of C3 and C3i systems (but NOT C3 Boosted systems); see pg. 134 of Total Warfare and pgs. 297-298 of Tactical Operations
  
• Affects detectability and identification via sensors other than IR, MagScan, and Seismic (see the "ECM/Stealth Modifiers Table" and pages 224-225 of Tactical Operations)
  
• Generates an ECCM bubble capable of negating the ECM effects of a single a single other Guardian ECM Suite or similar system (or one half of an Angel ECM Suite if both components are set to ECM mode); see pgs. 100-101 of Tactical Operations
  
• Generates ghost targets; see pgs. 101-102 of Tactical Operations
  
• Allows for the functioning of Stealth Armor System and Void Signature System (neither of which will operate at all unless either Guardian or Angel is installed); see pg. 142 of Total Warfare and pgs. 348-349 of Tactical Operations
  
• Affects the effectiveness of enemy automated weapon emplacements (Tactical Operations, pg. 133)
  
• Affects enemy communications systems (including Command Consoles, Mobile HQs, and Satellite Uplinks) and related bonuses (Tactical Operations, pgs. 195/196)

Angel ECM (Tactical Operations, pg. 279)[list]


[*]"Derived from captured Clan technology, research on the Angel ECM Suite began shortly after the Battle of Luthien as part of an effort to counter the increasingly sophisticated electronic warfare systems of the modern battlefield. Essentially a boosted, broader-spectrum version of the Guardian ECM, the Angel was shelved numerous times due to cost overruns and ultimately saved only with aid from ComStar."
[*]"The Angel ECM Suite works like standard ECM, but can also block the Bloodhound Active Probe, Artemis V and C3 Booster Systems, and even negates the locking systems of Streak missiles. Streak missiles fired into or through a hostile Angel ECM bubble will not fire if the to-hit roll fails, but on a successful Streak launcher attack, the attacker must roll on the Cluster table as though the launcher were a standard (non-Streak) model."
[*]"Units equipped with Stealth Armor can use the Angel ECM in place of the Guardian ECM for the same effect, using the same rules."
[*]"If the amount of friendly ECCM in a hex is equal to or greater than the enemy ECM in that hex, ECM does not function in that hex. For this purpose, the Angel ECM suite counts as two ECM or ECCM suites, or the player can choose to run the Angel at 1 ECM and 1 ECCM." (TacOps, pg. 100)
[*]"An Angel ECM Suite can be tuned to be 1 ECM or 1 ECCM while it generates ghost targets." (TacOps, pg. 102)

MWO's ECM does not function as two independently-operable ECM suites (that is, it cannot disrupt AND counter SIMULTANEOUSLY), nor does it cause Streaks to dumb-fire (which is a wholly different situation from preventing sensor detection & subsequent sensor-based locks), nor does it interfere with the more-advanced systems that are able to (more-easily) overcome Guardian (as those more-advanced systems) are not implemented in MWO; as such, MWO's ECM suited do not do any of the things that actually make Angel distinct from Guardian, which makes the equating of them a falsehood.

ECM in this game can cancel Streaks. Which makes it more like Angel ECM than Guardian ECM because Guardian ECM dont effect Streaks.

ECM in this game also removes the mech from electronic detection, which is what Stealth Armor does. Guardian nor Angel ECM do that by themselves.

Now I agree that ECM in this game isnt exactly Angel ECM combined with Stealth Armor, but its the best Battletech comparison I can come up with because MWO's version of ECM is completely fabricated. It just doesnt exist in Battletech. Atleast not that I can find.

Edited by JaxRiot, 26 April 2015 - 09:07 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

JaxRiot, on 26 April 2015 - 09:05 AM, said:

ECM in this game can cancel Streaks. Which makes it more like Angel ECM than Guardian ECM because Guardian ECM dont effect Streaks.

ECM in this game also removes the mech from electronic detection, which is what Stealth Armor does. Guardian nor Angel ECM do that by themselves.

Now I agree that ECM in this game isnt exactly Angel ECM combined with Stealth Armor, but its the best Battletech comparison I can come up with because MWO's version of ECM is completely fabricated. It just doesnt exist in Battletech. Atleast not that I can find.

Both ECM systems share the ability to indice a failure-to-detect condition; in BattleTech terms, they impart substantial penalties against the Sensor Spotting Roll.

• "To make a Sensor Check, the player rolls 2D6. A result of 7 or 8 means the sensor detects any unit within its short range. A result of 5 or 6 means the sensor detects units out to its medium range. A result of 2 to 4 means the sensor detects units out to its long range. A roll of 9 to 12 means the sensor failed to detect any units." - Tactical Operations, page 222
  
• "In the double-blind game, all ECM and stealth systems modify the die roll results of spotting units attempting to detect an enemy unit equipped with such an ECM system. Because different ECM/stealth systems have different effects against different probes and sensors, the modifiers vary depending on the spotting unit’s probe/sensor and the enemy unit’s ECM system. These modifiers appear in the ECM/Stealth Modifier Table. Once the sensor detection dice roll has been made (including adding any bonus modifiers from the controlling player’s side), the player consults the ECM/Stealth Modifier Table and adds the applicable modifier to the roll result." - Tactical Operations, page 224

More specifically, Guardian (and its Clan equivalent) imparts a +5 penalty against a Sensor Roll made with standard 'Mech sensors (e.g. radar) & a +4 penalty against a Sensor Roll made with Beagle (and its Clan Equivalent), while Angel imparts a +6 penalty against a Sensor Roll made with standard 'Mech sensors (e.g. radar) & a +5 penalty against a Sensor Roll made with Beagle (and its Clan Equivalent)(the list of penalties can be found on the "ECM/Stealth Modifier Table" on page 223 of TacOps).

Both systems could prevent a unit from showing up on radar (a method known as noise jamming; the real-world explanation is described here and here), with the more-powerful Angel simply being better at it than the relatively-weaker Guardian.

MWO's Guardian interfering with the Streak system (which, recall, is not so much a guidance system as it is an ammunition conservation system) is a deviation, albeit a logical one, that arises as a consequence of the sensor-affecting capabilities of the ECM suites.
The logic chain likely looks something like this:

• "If the targeting system is wholly dependent on sensor information to locate a lockable target", and
  
• "If the targeting system must establish a lock against a lockable target for guided weapons to take effect", and
  
• "If LRMs require a lock against a lockable target in order to track said target", and
  
• "If Streak Missiles require a lock to fire at all", and
  
• "If ECM adversely and severely affects the sensors' ability to locate a lockable target", then
  
• "ECM is capable of preventing the targeting system from establishing a lock against a lockable target", thus
  
• "ECM is capable of preventing weapons that rely on a lock to take effect from being used effectively (if at all) against itself."

PGI indicated long ago (in the early Dev Q&As) that they would make some changes in order to make things make sense from a realism perspective (with one example being that the Gauss Rifle and the smaller ACs don't have their BattleTech-mandated minimum ranges); the same principle applies here, where it "doesn't make sense" to be able to get a missile lock against something that the 'Mech's sensors cannot "see".
And since there is a failure to get a lock (in BT terms, the Streaks' initial to-hit roll failed), the Streaks do not fire (where "do not fire without a lock" is precisely what Streaks are designed to do).

In this regard, the difference between the MWO Guardian and a MWO implementation of Angel would be that the former (that is, Guardian) would have no effect if the Streaks did manage to fire (in BT terms, both the Sensor Roll (to detect the target) and the Streaks' initial to-hit roll (to achieve a lock) succeeded), while the latter (that is, Angel) would cause the Streaks to lose their lock mid-flight (thus negating their guaranteed-to-hit capability (thus causing them to miss & waste ammo - which is antithetical to the entire point of the Streak system) & making them act like "regular" SRMs after they've fired).
The MWO Guardian (and its Clan counterpart) lack this insidious capability (along with the other capabilities that distinguish Angel from Guardian),so it is grossly inaccurate to say that the MWO ECM system mirrors Angel in any way.

Edited by Strum Wealh, 26 April 2015 - 09:53 AM.