35 replies to this topic

[Spleenslitta]

As you all know there are a lot of players that are unsatisfied with Ghost Heat and Convergence.
Some think these subjects have been done to death, but have we ever voted in huuuge numbers?
Vote as much as possible so that PGI can see how downright discontent we are about this.

I want to see how many are discontent about these 2 subjects while discussing new ideas that could replace them.

Why would i want this?

Spoiler

Because if Convergence was removed we would see fewer boats.
Convergence has a lot of effect on boating because it spreads damage a lot if it was removed.

As for Ghost heat....Ghost Heat just pisses off a lot of players in general since it simply doesn't make sense.
I don't boat, but i still don't want it in MWO because it just doesn't make sense.

Some mechs of course would still be suitable for boating because they can mount large amounts of the same type of weapon in one location.
Hunchback 4P for example can mount 6 energy weapons in it's right torso.

I'll put my opinions on things that could replace Ghost Heat to stop boating in the spoiler button below.
One of them even also touches on the convergence issue as well.

Spoiler

Lower the heat threshold before shutdown to stop boating that way.
It's a simple idea that is easy to implement.
How low should it go? I have no idea. I ain't got the brains for numbers.

Increased heat makes the mech more sluggish.
Full credit to IaIdabaoth for reminding me of this one. I love it.
Keep in mind these are just example stats provided by him. But even as examples i like them a lot.
- Speed, acceleration/deceleration, turning, arm, and twist speed are reduced linearly starting at 30% heat, as follows:

30% heat: 100% speed
40% heat: 95% speed
50% heat: 90% speed
60% heat: 85% speed
70% heat: 80% speed
80% heat: 75% speed
90% heat: 70% speed
100% heat: 65% speed
- At 90% heat, you behave as if you were inside an enemy ECM bubble.
- at 100% and higher heat, in additional to CT internal structure damage, there's an increasing % chance of an ammunition explosion for non-Gauss ammo.

Or introduce Local Heat and Cooling.
By Local Heat and Cooling i mean firing 6 ML's from the 4P's right torso would raise heat in that section of the mech more than the other sections.
You would also increase heat in the rest of the mech but not as much.

If it had an XL engine (yeah poor choice for a Hunchback but it's just an example) or AMS ammo in that location they would be likely to receive heat damage.
Maybe even the ML's themselves could be damaged or receive much longer cooldown (firerate) periods if it gets hot enough.

This also means heatsinks that are in the 4P's left torso will have less effect than if they were in the right torso where the heat is hottest.

Yeah i know....It would raise the learning curve for MWO by a lot.
You could still boat effectivly if the weapons were in different mechsections but if convergence was gone too the pinpoint damage would be gone.
Which is a large reason for why players boat.
And there are other issues i'm sure but i'll leave it at that for now.

What impact would the removal of Convergence have on MWO?
We would get more personality from each mech. Look at the mechs in your garage.
Some of the mechs you haven't used in ages could suddenly seem very appealing again.
I mean it...just look at them for 3-5 minutes. That's all i ask. Please?

If convergence is removed we might need new crosshairs.
I've drawn and explained some ideas in the spoiler below. Example 1 is not good enough in my opinion.

Spoiler

Example 1 is what i originaly thought about when i mentioned limited form of arm convergence in the poll.
Instead of one circle representing our arm weapons we get two.
The closer we are to where we aim the further apart the arm circles are since it only converges at longer ranges.
I'm thinking full arm convergence at 300-600 meters. But who knows really...




Example 2 has an individual X shaped crosshair for each torso mounted weapon and circles for the arms.
This is so we don't confuse torso and arm mounted weapons so easily.

Example 3 is my favorite. My Vindicator 1X is a good example since it has a bit of everything.
3xMG's in LA, PPC in RA, SRM6 in LT and ML in head.

It actually tells us how far the spread could become for SRM, LBX and MG if fired at where it's currently aimed.
The bigger the circle or X is the further the spread will be.

Color coded crosshairs too. Red = energy, blue = ballistics, green = missiles....you know the drill.
When a weapon is within optimal ranges it goes bright colored, but darkens when it's within maximum range.
And it becomes almost black when it won't do any damage at all since it's beyond maximum range.

I know some will think it's too advanced but i think it wouldn't be too hard to get used to.

I'm certain you guys can come up with better ideas to replace Ghost Heat/Convergence than me.
If you do get an idea i will put it into the poll along with a referance to the page & post number where you explain your idea.

Edited by Spleenslitta, 30 April 2015 - 10:19 AM.

[Doman Hugin]

I voted 'yes' no removing convergance.
Biggest problem is, if 'EVERY' shot you fire doesn't hit where you aim, you'll get the "you've nerfed my aiming skill" crying.
So you need to satisfy both parties and that'll not easily be done.

Edited by Doman Hugin, 29 April 2015 - 05:10 AM.

[Spleenslitta]

Doman Hugin, on 29 April 2015 - 05:10 AM, said:

I voted 'yes' no removing convergance.
Biggest problem is, if 'EVERY' shot you fire doesn't hit where you aim, you'll get the "you've nerfed my aiming skill" crying.
So you need to satisfy both parties and that'll not easily be done.

Sorry for not replying sooner. I was at work.
I never thought of it from this side so thanks for bringing it to my attention.
It would have felt natural to me since i've played MW games for so long.

I thought of 3 solutions to this. I'll try to draw some pictures of my ideas. It'll be in Paint. It's the best i can do.
It's just to difficult to explain in words alone.

[Juodas Varnas]

I'd say if we have to keep convergence (i voted to remove it), they could make the crosshair bob and move while moving. It can't be hard to code, because the crosshair bobbing is ALREADY in the game (In third person) and implementing in first person shouldn't be very hard.
Not sure it'd be enough though

[Spleenslitta]

I'm back with my crude drawing of my version of new crosshairs.

Example 1 is what i originaly thought about when i mentioned limited form of arm convergence in the poll.
It's clearly not good enough in my opinion.
Instead of one circle representing our arm weapons we get two.
The closer we are to where we aim the further apart the arm circles are since it only converges at longer ranges.
I'm thinking full arm convergence at 300-600 meters. But who knows really...




Example 2 has an individual X shaped crosshair for each torso mounted weapon and circles for the arms.
This is so we don't confuse torso and arm mounted weapons so easily.

Example 3 is my favorite. My Vindicator 1X is a good example since it has a bit of everything.
3xMG's in LA, PPC in RA, SRM6 in LT and ML in head.

It actually tells us how far the spread could become for SRM, LBX and MG if fired at where it's currently aimed.
The bigger the circle or X is the further the spread will be.

Color coded crosshairs too. Red = energy, blue = ballistics, green = missiles....you know the drill.
When a weapon is within optimal ranges it goes bright colored, but darkens when it's within maximum range.
And it becomes almost black when it won't do any damage at all since it's beyond maximum range.

I know some will think it's too advanced but i think it wouldn't be too hard to get used to.

I've added the new crosshairs to the poll and post 5# has been edited into my original post.
Now i have to figure out something for the colorblind players.

Maybe symbols along the edges of the individual targeting crosshairs?
Or maybe the lines forming the crosshairs should be shaped different? Like bumpy lines for ballistics, flamey lines for energy and spikes for missiles?

Edited by Spleenslitta, 29 April 2015 - 09:54 AM.

[Shae Starfyre]

It's a nice idea but I wonder if this only buffs snipers.

What I mean is that the game moves to fast to take this under consideration; imagine the face time and slow downs people would make to engage this concept.

In effect, it would turn into a cone of fire like mechanic as "Speed is Life" and you must mitigate damage by "Torso Twisting"

Is this the CON of not aiming; is this the PRO of taking time to Aim?

I feel like it would be largerly ignored, and those who snipe will take full advantage of it and nothing will change outside of possibly brawler combat (now that I think about it, it might be beneficial here as once you get into brawler range, time speeds up and convergence should not be so precise).

Still mix feelings.

[Ialdabaoth]

Keep convergence, but make it not instant - and make it slower the more weapons you have, at the same rate that ghost heat is currently calculated.

[Spleenslitta]

Aphoticus, on 30 April 2015 - 09:42 AM, said:

It's a nice idea but I wonder if this only buffs snipers.

What I mean is that the game moves to fast to take this under consideration; imagine the face time and slow downs people would make to engage this concept.

In effect, it would turn into a cone of fire like mechanic as "Speed is Life" and you must mitigate damage by "Torso Twisting"

Is this the CON of not aiming; is this the PRO of taking time to Aim?

I feel like it would be largerly ignored, and those who snipe will take full advantage of it and nothing will change outside of possibly brawler combat (now that I think about it, it might be beneficial here as once you get into brawler range, time speeds up and convergence should not be so precise).

Still mix feelings.

That is a good point. Let's look at it from this angle for a moment.

What benefits snipers most?
1: 2-3 weapons that converge on one point no matter the range.
2: The targets hesitate 1 or maybe 1.5 second longer to aim themselves.

Without convergence snipers get less focused firepower which increases the survivability of their victims.
I do suppose less skilled players will have some problems aiming.
But if they can adapt to their legs walking in one direction while their torso faces another direction they should be able to adapt to this too.

Ialdabaoth, on 30 April 2015 - 09:53 AM, said:

Keep convergence, but make it not instant - and make it slower the more weapons you have, at the same rate that ghost heat is currently calculated.

I'll add this option to the poll. Forgot to add a thank you since i wanted to post in a hurry since we were here at the same time.

Edited by Spleenslitta, 30 April 2015 - 10:07 AM.

[Ialdabaoth]

Also, rather than lowering heat caps or implementing local heat, heat would be made a lot more relevant to the game if they'd just implement the heat scale penalties that were in every other Mechwarrior game. Something like:

- Speed, acceleration/deceleration, turning, arm, and twist speed are reduced linearly starting at 30% heat, as follows:

30% heat: 100% speed
40% heat: 95% speed
50% heat: 90% speed
60% heat: 85% speed
70% heat: 80% speed
80% heat: 75% speed
90% heat: 70% speed
100% heat: 65% speed

- At 90% heat, you behave as if you were inside an enemy ECM bubble.

- at 100% and higher heat, in additional to CT internal structure damage, there's an increasing % chance of an ammunition explosion for non-Gauss ammo.

[Spleenslitta]

Ialdabaoth, on 30 April 2015 - 10:07 AM, said:

Also, rather than lowering heat caps or implementing local heat, heat would be made a lot more relevant to the game if they'd just implement the heat scale penalties that were in every other Mechwarrior game. Something like:

- Speed, acceleration/deceleration, turning, arm, and twist speed are reduced linearly starting at 30% heat, as follows:

30% heat: 100% speed
40% heat: 95% speed
50% heat: 90% speed
60% heat: 85% speed
70% heat: 80% speed
80% heat: 75% speed
90% heat: 70% speed
100% heat: 65% speed

- At 90% heat, you behave as if you were inside an enemy ECM bubble.

- at 100% and higher heat, in additional to CT internal structure damage, there's an increasing % chance of an ammunition explosion for non-Gauss ammo.

This is something i've wanted from the very beginning. Just plain forgot about it when i made the thread.
But there will still be the gauss boats...oh well. We cannot have everything served on a silver platter.
Wait one moment and i'll add this as well to the poll.

[Serpentbane]

Regarding convergence.

Arms are flexible, and should remain so as long as they do not move beyond the limits of the joints or touches the mechs body. I see no reason why arm weapon convergence should be several hundred meters.

Torso mounted weapons are bolted to the mechs hull. None moving weapons should have a convergence point, but it should be fixed. This could perhaps be adjustable in the mechbay if possible. If you set it at 100m the weapons would spread out in all directions after that, but could be useful for those running close range strikes. The maximum convergence range could be like 1000m to give a somewhat straight line, but this would spread damage more close up.

Arm mounted weapons removing joints would also converge with the torso-mounted weapons. The wider the mech, the bigger spread.

In addition, yes, remove GH...
I had to vote, but I'd rather just remove GH and be done with it.

Edited by Serpentbane, 01 July 2015 - 01:38 PM.

[Val_yrie]

Im not exactly sure how i feel about this stuff O-o
EDIT: I now gets how this stuff works after sitting down and thinking.

here are my 10 c-bills

convergence is good, it stays. but you slow the speed if you have too, maybe make it so that as actuators are destroyed convergence speed slows(if we can ever do that) among effecting speed and range of motion, we effect convergence speed.
or make it slower the more tons are on the arms. (also slow it like how you slow movement with a slower engine, although this might already be a thing)

now the hot bit (if you expect "hot" as in good looking women, get yer head outta that gutter!)

ghost heat..... screw it. heat already is localized (i know, i pilot this https://www.mechspec...med-pulse.9089/ ) although. if i understand my table top right ghost heat is indeed a legit thing for balance (although I'm probably insanely wrong)

although having sections of the 'mech that are really hot take a few crits might not hurt, or maybe ammo spontaneously igniting if its too hot my work.

although i do also agree with the idea of penalizing speed with heat. although that would ruin my builds. I never get out of a fight without taking heat damage (I have problems you see, they're called dual ER PPCs). But it could work.

those have been my 10 c-bills

Edited by Tdog00, 05 July 2015 - 11:04 AM.

[RolfS]

I honestly didn't bother reading the above posts but really if you want a loadout such as summoner Prime to be any good (PPC, LRM, LBX) weapons need to be differentiated and useful against different targets.

A simple way to improve the situation and to make boating one kind of weapon less efffective is to change how damage is applied to mechs. Simply allow mechs like Atlas with lots of armour to not take any damage by small weapons such medium lasers, machine guns etc. Allow weapons like the AC/20 to do single hit kills if firing at light mechs without much armour, and make damage application be different between weapons (for instance lasers do little damage to internals of mechs but go easily through armour while auto cannons are not blocked by armour easily but do a lot of damage to mech internals).
In other words make armour in MWO work like armour and not like additional internals...

If weapons are all different and every weapon is ineffective against at least one mech type people will stop boating the same kind of weapon and the original problem will go away..... (LRM boats often have a few MLs for a reason)


BTW: the question "what should replace ghost heat" is missing the option "other"

[Thumper3]

Ghost heat, needs to be removed BUT.....only if hardpoint limitations are applied. Putting an AC20 into a MG hardpoint or a PPC into a SL slot should be a no-no, that would remove the 8 PPC monsters. However it would also hamper full customization so I understand the push back.

Simply put, pick your poison, ghost heat or hardpoint sizes, there has to be some reigning in of extreme boating.

Serpentbane, on 01 July 2015 - 01:30 PM, said:

Regarding convergence.

Arms are flexible, and should remain so as long as they do not move beyond the limits of the joints or touches the mechs body. I see no reason why arm weapon convergence should be several hundred meters.

Torso mounted weapons are bolted to the mechs hull. None moving weapons should have a convergence point, but it should be fixed. This could perhaps be adjustable in the mechbay if possible. If you set it at 100m the weapons would spread out in all directions after that, but could be useful for those running close range strikes. The maximum convergence range could be like 1000m to give a somewhat straight line, but this would spread damage more close up.

Arm mounted weapons removing joints would also converge with the torso-mounted weapons. The wider the mech, the bigger spread.

This is well stated.....and I like the idea of setting the torso weapons in mechbay, just like sighting your AR. You know where it's perfectly set, anything out of that range and you have to make adjustments for bullet drop. It just might be too complex for a video game and non like minded players, but I like it. They wouldn't necessarily spread in all directions, they would spread in only one direction....to the left for right mounted weapons and to the right for left mounted weapons. To a point just having torso mounted weapons pre-set for convergence at max range might work, although with mixed and matched weapons that would be where allowing us to customize them would come in.

Also agree on arm weapons. If the arms move, why shouldn't they aim where they can? It should take some time though, they should not instantly snap to convergence for a target at 200m and then re-aim and lock in for a target at 700m.

RolfS, on 10 July 2015 - 11:50 AM, said:

I honestly didn't bother reading the above posts..........................

Dude, seriously, how do you expect to participate in discussions if you won't read? This is the second time you have started with "Didn't bother reading....."

Edited by Thumper3, 10 July 2015 - 02:09 PM.

[RolfS]

Quote

Dude, seriously, how do you expect to participate in discussions if you won't read? This is the second time you have started with "Didn't bother reading....."

Lots o people post messages about some over complicated system to replace "ghost heat" but most of them are badly written. This isnt the first post about ghost heat....

Edited by RolfS, 13 July 2015 - 02:07 PM.

[Spleenslitta]

OP here. Honestly i'd forgotten this thread since so few players voted and it got so old. I even had to read my original post.

Could you guys give me some feedback on my idea about new crosshairs? Anything that could improve it?

Serpentbane, on 01 July 2015 - 01:30 PM, said:

Regarding convergence.

Arms are flexible, and should remain so as long as they do not move beyond the limits of the joints or touches the mechs body. I see no reason why arm weapon convergence should be several hundred meters.

Torso mounted weapons are bolted to the mechs hull. None moving weapons should have a convergence point, but it should be fixed. This could perhaps be adjustable in the mechbay if possible. If you set it at 100m the weapons would spread out in all directions after that, but could be useful for those running close range strikes. The maximum convergence range could be like 1000m to give a somewhat straight line, but this would spread damage more close up.

Arm mounted weapons removing joints would also converge with the torso-mounted weapons. The wider the mech, the bigger spread.

In addition, yes, remove GH...
I had to vote, but I'd rather just remove GH and be done with it.

Here is another good idea.

Tdog00, on 05 July 2015 - 10:40 AM, said:

Im not exactly sure how i feel about this stuff O-o
EDIT: I now gets how this stuff works after sitting down and thinking.

here are my 10 c-bills

convergence is good, it stays. but you slow the speed if you have too, maybe make it so that as actuators are destroyed convergence speed slows(if we can ever do that) among effecting speed and range of motion, we effect convergence speed.
or make it slower the more tons are on the arms. (also slow it like how you slow movement with a slower engine, although this might already be a thing)

now the hot bit (if you expect "hot" as in good looking women, get yer head outta that gutter!)

ghost heat..... screw it. heat already is localized (i know, i pilot this https://www.mechspec...med-pulse.9089/ ) although. if i understand my table top right ghost heat is indeed a legit thing for balance (although I'm probably insanely wrong)

although having sections of the 'mech that are really hot take a few crits might not hurt, or maybe ammo spontaneously igniting if its too hot my work.

although i do also agree with the idea of penalizing speed with heat. although that would ruin my builds. I never get out of a fight without taking heat damage (I have problems you see, they're called dual ER PPCs). But it could work.

those have been my 10 c-bills

Destroyed actuators slowing down speed? Never thought of that....Nice one.
Ghost heat is localised allready? If it is localised then i wish they would put in instant ammo explosion or crits from too much heat like you say.

[Modo44]

The problem with convergence changing over time is timing. Higher ping players would always be at a disadvantage. This is not a question of skill or whining, but of making the system as fair as possible. Games like CS can do it because you can expect people to have very close pings. MWO can never achieve that -- ping differences are significant even with regional servers.

Imperfect convergence can still be done, but it would have to depend on static parameters. An example would be a static 100% convergence range that a player can set (like you do for aircraft weapons in War Thunder) instead of the current "converge where aimed" mechanic. Another would be a more in-depth damage model like the actuator damage idea above.

[Spleenslitta]

Modo44, on 06 August 2015 - 12:33 AM, said:

The problem with convergence changing over time is timing. Higher ping players would always be at a disadvantage. This is not a question of skill or whining, but of making the system as fair as possible. Games like CS can do it because you can expect people to have very close pings. MWO can never achieve that -- ping differences are significant even with regional servers.

Imperfect convergence can still be done, but it would have to depend on static parameters. An example would be a static 100% convergence range that a player can set (like you do for aircraft weapons in War Thunder) instead of the current "converge where aimed" mechanic. Another would be a more in-depth damage model like the actuator damage idea above.

That's not a good point......it's a supremely good point. Having convergence getting better if you keep your aim in roughly the same spot over time sounds good but that ping problem is a big obstacle.
Another obstacle would be when will the convergence get more accurate?
- When you aim at a locked target and keep the crosshairs inside a targetingbox.
- Or when you aim at a certain spot of space.
The last one would be hard to code i think.
Should convergence be totally gone if you don't aim at a locked target if we had timed convergence?

What do you Modo44 think about removing convergence althogheter and those new crosshairs i drew so amateurisly in the 3rd spoilerbutton in the original post?

[Modo44]

I think mechs should be able to put all damage in one spot, otherwise a big skill component would simply go away. I like the War Thunder system where weapons converge at a preset range. Given the different engagement ranges in MWO, there would have to be some toggle/adjustment during a match. That way sniping perfectly would require skill with range controls, and potentially laying in wait (to preset the range correctly) -- instead of the current "just snap aim" approach.

Oh, and a preset convergence range would fix one major problem with the current system: overshooting wildly when you happen to pull the trigger while the reticule travels slightly away from your target's silhouette.

Edited by Modo44, 06 August 2015 - 11:12 AM.

[Voivode]

I think some people bring up valid points about ping and convergence. Perhaps a better system might be to replace ghost heat with a system of graduated cooldowns. For example: a single gauss has a 4 second recycle, but firing two at once increases the recycle on those gauss rifles to 8 seconds, 3 at once makes it 16 seconds, 4 at once (Super DireWolf of early clan days) and you get a 32 second cooldown.

Take the same approcah with PPCs where each additional unit after two (just like ghost heat) increments your cooldown for those fired weapons in a graduated manner. Something like 1-2 PPCs/ERPPCs = 4 seconds, 3 PPC/ERPPC = 6 seconds, 4 = 10 seconds, 5 = 18 seconds, 6 = 34 seconds.

Applying this formula to certain weapons that become game breaking when boated (given instant convergence) allows there to be a non-heat based way to balance it out.

I don't know if people would really regard this as less odious than ghost heat, but at the very least it doesn't leave you shut down as a sitting duck. It lets you scamper away and reconsider how you fire your weapons and equip your mech.