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Er Large Lasers Vs Large Lasers


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#1 Raso

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Posted 09 May 2015 - 06:23 AM

So I've been using my brand new Hellslinger a lot recently and it's been working very good for me, thus far. This is the build I've been using.

One thing I have notices is that I do suffer a damage drop off at much longer ranges. I've been considering swapping out a single LLas on each shoulder for 1 ERLLas. So ERLLas don't do extra damage but they have a longer range and, thus, suffer less damage fall off at the same point as a LLAS. Something like this.

I also know the ERLLas has an additional 0.25 seconds worth of burn time, so I'm wondering how that will effect faster moving targets. I'm also I usually fire the LLas in groups of 2 and seldom in groups of 4. How much additional ghost heat should I expect with that extra 2 heat per alpha?

In general, any advice about if ERLLas are worth it for the extra damage at range would be welcome.

Also, I know that there are Battlemasters with quircks to help me get that bit of range from beam weapons. When I have the C-bills for them I'll get them.

Edited by Raso, 09 May 2015 - 06:28 AM.


#2 Appogee

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Posted 09 May 2015 - 06:25 AM

Hellbringer is a Clan Mech. You meant Hellslinger.

The primary limitation on Hellslinger's damage is the rate of fire it can sustain before it maxes out on heat. ERLs add a a point of heat over LLs every time you fire them, or 0.13 more heat per second. That will get you to your heat threshold faster.

However, the additional engagement range of ERLs also means you'll do more damage at longer ranges... as long as hold those ERLs on target for a quarter second longer.

It's a tradeoff. Whether it's better to carry some ERLs vs LLs comes down to your engagement range. If your enemies are mostly in the 450-675m range where ERLs do more damage, or even further out where they at least do some damage, they could be worthwhile.

If I had a LL Hellslinger then yes I'd swap in a couple of ERLs.

Personally I use 4LPLs on Hellslinger. They do higher DPS in the 375 and lower range than LLs or ERLs. I also get better hitreg with them, despite PGI's uncanny ability to make lasers not register damage.

Edited by Appogee, 09 May 2015 - 06:58 AM.


#3 Raso

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Posted 09 May 2015 - 06:28 AM

Yes, Hellslinger.

#4 Amsro

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Posted 09 May 2015 - 06:38 AM

I much prefer going with 4 LPL and extra speed and DHS from an XL375. Such a beast of a mech.

Hellslinger

#5 Raso

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Posted 09 May 2015 - 07:27 AM

That's a lovely build, and I do want to get my Wub on, but I'm trying for extra range, not less. I'm also not too keep on XL engines due to their cost and the whole side torso death thing. I like trying to use my heavily armored arms for defense when in a brawl and but they aren't super large or shieldy so my STs aren't as well protected as I'd like.

The Hellslinger doesn't have the best twist range to start with, so I want to minimize my close range combat if possible. Mid range is fine enough, though.

Edited by Raso, 09 May 2015 - 07:28 AM.


#6 Omi_

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Posted 09 May 2015 - 07:44 AM

If you want to brawl, then you probably shouldn't be taking ERLL at all. The large pulse laser would be far more appropriate. LL in general are a bit low on damage for brawling.

If you want to snipe, then Stalkers would be a better option in the same tonnage range. Either way, I would recommend building your mech for one concise role, and then pilot to suit your intention.

#7 Raso

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Posted 09 May 2015 - 07:49 AM

I want to do mid-long range poking. I only brawl when a brawler gets too close and I have no options to retreat. I don't want LPLs on this mech. I want more range. LPLs have less range.

I also can't afford a Stalker and I find them terribly ugly. I'm working on my Battlemasters atm. I'll put pulse lasers on another variant but not this one.

#8 Athousandson

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Posted 09 May 2015 - 10:27 AM

I don't pilot Battlemasters but what Hornsby said is right. Mixed roles don't do well for IS mechs.

#9 Raso

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Posted 09 May 2015 - 03:46 PM

Did I describe a mixed role unit (not rhetorical or snarky, I honestly don't know where this keeps coming from. Like is the meta so flipping ridged that have 2 long range weapons with a roughly 200m range difference really that extreme?) I said I wanted to add a little more damage at the further ranges to a mid-long range unit. I don't see that as being multiple roles.

Edited by Raso, 09 May 2015 - 03:48 PM.


#10 Omi_

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Posted 09 May 2015 - 04:04 PM

I've edited this post a few times before coming up with my final thoughts.

You aren't really describing a mixed role, but you are describing a tactical conflict of interest at least in terms of game mechanics. I think it comes more from the tactics that you're trying to employ defensively. You say that you want to use your arms and side torsos to keep yourself alive at close range, but by going the ERLL route, you don't have the firepower and heat efficiency in order to actually kill something up close like that. Also, if you're going to be swinging your mouse around, you won't be able to track a target to make use of the long burn time of large lasers anyway, which further hurts your damage output and makes you a lot less scary. That's why others have started suggesting large pulse lasers instead, if you're going to expect to brawl.

It doesn't matter if you're using a STD or XL engine, you can always roll damage. Taking a STD engine allows you to do it longer and after you've lost weapons, but if you can't force your enemy to also break their gaze on you once in a while, they'll just stare you down while you do all the damage rolling. If you took an XL instead, you can still roll damage, but you can also hit a lot harder - something which STD brawlers eventually lose over the course of their brawling lives as components get blown up.

Going ERLL puts you into the glass cannon camp due to heat problems you'll inevitably have when trying to put out enough damage to scare something off. Going XL makes you more effective at the long range laser vomit in the first place.

If you're looking for a legitimate midpoint where you have an easier time fighting things off at most ranges, I would recommend staying with LL.

All food for thought.

Edited by Hornsby, 09 May 2015 - 04:23 PM.


#11 Havyek

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Posted 09 May 2015 - 04:14 PM

View PostRaso, on 09 May 2015 - 03:46 PM, said:

Did I describe a mixed role unit (not rhetorical or snarky, I honestly don't know where this keeps coming from. Like is the meta so flipping ridged that have 2 long range weapons with a roughly 200m range difference really that extreme?) I said I wanted to add a little more damage at the further ranges to a mid-long range unit. I don't see that as being multiple roles.

Not you, I read what you posted fine (I think).
You're looking to add some range and are wondering if ERLLAS are worth the extra heat over LLAS correct?
I think where people are getting the "mixed range" thoughts from are from the fact that you have 4 ERLLAS and 2 MLAS. Might as well run something like <a href="http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=204&l=2090ace02ed5a8f37bd6f91ce79b53f90c4e36ca">HELLSLINGER</a> with the extra cooling than the MLAS at short range.
You'd likely be even better off with what you're currently running, plus some LLAS cooldown and range modules.

#12 Kali Rinpoche

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Posted 09 May 2015 - 04:27 PM

HELLSLINGER

Would be how I would run it, trying to stay close to your original build. 1 pt less damage but faster dps up close.

#13 RedEagle86

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Posted 09 May 2015 - 04:36 PM

The two builds I run on mine: LPL brawler (with tag), ERLL/ 4LPL. The second one runs quite warm, but I'm used to hot 'Mechs. Tons of survivability.

Edited by RedEagle86, 09 May 2015 - 04:37 PM.


#14 Raso

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Posted 09 May 2015 - 06:37 PM

View PostHornsby, on 09 May 2015 - 04:04 PM, said:

I've edited this post a few times before coming up with my final thoughts.

You aren't really describing a mixed role, but you are describing a tactical conflict of interest at least in terms of game mechanics. I think it comes more from the tactics that you're trying to employ defensively. You say that you want to use your arms and side torsos to keep yourself alive at close range, but by going the ERLL route, you don't have the firepower and heat efficiency in order to actually kill something up close like that. Also, if you're going to be swinging your mouse around, you won't be able to track a target to make use of the long burn time of large lasers anyway, which further hurts your damage output and makes you a lot less scary. That's why others have started suggesting large pulse lasers instead, if you're going to expect to brawl.

It doesn't matter if you're using a STD or XL engine, you can always roll damage. Taking a STD engine allows you to do it longer and after you've lost weapons, but if you can't force your enemy to also break their gaze on you once in a while, they'll just stare you down while you do all the damage rolling. If you took an XL instead, you can still roll damage, but you can also hit a lot harder - something which STD brawlers eventually lose over the course of their brawling lives as components get blown up.

Going ERLL puts you into the glass cannon camp due to heat problems you'll inevitably have when trying to put out enough damage to scare something off. Going XL makes you more effective at the long range laser vomit in the first place.

If you're looking for a legitimate midpoint where you have an easier time fighting things off at most ranges, I would recommend staying with LL.

All food for thought.


I've not seen the 2 extra DHS make that much of a difference, heat wise. And when it comes to brawling, again, that's for when the proverbial manure hits the fan. I don't brawl in this build if I can avoid it but when I do I'm thankful that the Battlemaster's arms have extra armor. Maybe if I described how I'v been using this build so far.

I try to keep combat at around that range but on levels like Canyon Network, Alpine Peaks, ect, I use the LLas in groups of 2 if I think I can get away with some sustained fire or I take the ghost heat and fire all 4 if I'm doing a quick peak. The MLas or MPL are for when I'm engaging in more flat terrain and can return fire at a more steady pace or when I'm on a smaller map and pushed into a closer range scenario. As a mid range unit I prepare for the often inevitable occurrence of he fight getting close.

So what I'm looking for is help adding damage past the LLas's effective range, that is beyond 450m. What I'm hoping is that swapping out 2 LLas for 2 ERLLas will give me a little more damage past 450m with out changing the mech's heat or characteristics very much. I'm also hoping to avoid PPCs for the time being.

People keep suggesting the LPL. Does it actually out damage the LLas past 450m or are people convinced I secretly want to brawl?

#15 Raso

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Posted 09 May 2015 - 07:15 PM

View PostHavyek, on 09 May 2015 - 04:14 PM, said:

Not you, I read what you posted fine (I think).
You're looking to add some range and are wondering if ERLLAS are worth the extra heat over LLAS correct?
I think where people are getting the "mixed range" thoughts from are from the fact that you have 4 ERLLAS and 2 MLAS. Might as well run something like HELLSLINGER with the extra cooling than the MLAS at short range.
You'd likely be even better off with what you're currently running, plus some LLAS cooldown and range modules.


ER LLas only have 1 more heat than LLas (if I'm reading smurfy right). Does that much extra heat make such a diference to need all the extra heat sinks?

#16 Void Angel

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Posted 09 May 2015 - 09:29 PM

It can. Heat sinks affect not only how fast you cool, but how much heat you can absorb before overheating. Thus, they have a big effect on how long you can last in combat from a cooled-off state, and a smaller effect on how much damage you can sustain.

That one heat per shot difference adds up when you compare it to cooling/second, so choosing to take a considerable weight in ER Larges will shift the focus of the build toward long-range sniping (where you can take cover to cool) and away from close- and mid-range combat.

Edited by Void Angel, 09 May 2015 - 09:29 PM.


#17 Appogee

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Posted 10 May 2015 - 12:08 AM

The other salient point is that ERLs have a quarter second longer burn time. That means the damage can spread a bit more, or miss.

Burn time is another reason lots of us favour LPLs over LLs and ERLs.

But we get it, you're determined not to use LPLs.

Edited by Appogee, 10 May 2015 - 12:09 AM.


#18 Raso

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Posted 10 May 2015 - 07:05 AM

LPLs don't have the range I'm looking for. If they actually deal roughly equal damage out to 450m then that's not a bit of trivia I'm privy to.

I'm also aware of the longer burn time of ER LLas. What I'm hoping, though, is that past 700m sweep from ERLLas will deal more damage than a sweep from LLas. That's what I'm really hoping to figure out.

#19 Athousandson

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Posted 10 May 2015 - 07:13 AM

At that range, I wouldn't exactly know how much additional damage you'd do :/ maybe you could plot a graph or something but my guess is you'd probably only be doing a tad more damage.

#20 IraqiWalker

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Posted 10 May 2015 - 07:16 AM

View PostRaso, on 10 May 2015 - 07:05 AM, said:

LPLs don't have the range I'm looking for. If they actually deal roughly equal damage out to 450m then that's not a bit of trivia I'm privy to.

I'm also aware of the longer burn time of ER LLas. What I'm hoping, though, is that past 700m sweep from ERLLas will deal more damage than a sweep from LLas. That's what I'm really hoping to figure out.


Past 700 meters ERLLs will always deal more damage than regular LLs. ERLLs will ALWAYS deal more damage than regular LLs past 450 meters (at 451 meters the LLs start dropping in damage. Whlie the ERLL maintains the standard damage up to 675). Past 700 meters the LL will deal diddly squat, while the ERLL will have barely started dropping off in damage.


EDIT: Might wanna check the individual stats of each weapon?

http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/equipment

Edited by IraqiWalker, 10 May 2015 - 07:17 AM.






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