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Pinpoint Master?


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#1 Questia

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Posted 23 May 2015 - 03:18 AM

Okay, here's something... less dramatic, and to the point.

I've somehow taken a liking for pinpoint damage. AC/20s, PPCs, Gauss, anything that drops 10 or more damage in one place works for me. It's even better, of course, if they combine to drop 30 or more damage.

I'm asking you guys this question, in relation to this new-found preference:

What is the best mech and build for unloading pinpoint damage?
There are a few criteria for this:
  • First, it has to be able to sustainably land at least 30 points of pinpoint damage. AC/20 + PPC can get that, and so can Gauss + 2 PPC. The trick here is to make ammo and heat manageable, and have them converge well enough. Bonus points if the weapons are all on the same side, for maximum shield-side and poke power.
  • Second, it has to be maneuverable enough to make its shots count. Jump Jets are high up on the list here. Speed is okay, but not too high. ECM may help, but is optional.
  • Third and lastly, it must be able to either dodge or shield against enemy fire effectively.
It's for this reason that I've gained at least a little respect for Cataphracts. They may be squishy normally, but when it comes to pinpoint-and-shield gameplay they end up being surprisingly effective and -gasp!- tanky. The 3D is the natural best for this thanks to JJs, but I don't have one - the 0XP is the one I'm currently using.


So, what's the best PPFLD mech in your opinion?

Edited by Questia, 23 May 2015 - 08:24 AM.


#2 xDust

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Posted 23 May 2015 - 06:35 AM

Good firepower, good maneuverability, good shielding...

Why do people always try to ask for the perfect trinity? At the least, it limits choices within... 50-80 tons. Really, it's a near impossibility.

Personally, I never thought Cataphracts were very tanky; everything just seemed to fall off until either I was a stick or just cored right away. But I only own a 3D, so my experience piloting is very little. They do hold enough tonnage though.

Some might say Victors, but... they would argue squishy with XL engines required for mobility, and Assault JJs are... not great. But they were the classic choice for this kind of play.

Highlanders, well, if you want JJs, they're also not fantastic, so probably not either. But again, it can work if you really want it to.

If we go lower on the scale, the Enforcer at 50 tons has enough to do a decent pinpoint damage, AC/10 and fiddle around to fit a PPC. Maneuverable and tanky.

And... well, about being impossible, I kind of lied there.

That's what the Timber Wolf is for. I like it for the same reason many others do and many others hate it: its adaptability and sweet spot sitting at 75 tons, giving it enough tonnage to do things and shrug off damage. With proper building, you can give it 1 or 2 JJs (depending on the base variant) that's fairly usable and Gauss + 2xPPC, 30-40 shots, while maintaining enough armor, if not slightly under-armored in the legs. Clan ACs are just... no.

Edited by xDust, 23 May 2015 - 06:41 AM.


#3 Questia

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Posted 23 May 2015 - 08:24 AM

View PostxDust, on 23 May 2015 - 06:35 AM, said:

Good firepower, good maneuverability, good shielding...

Why do people always try to ask for the perfect trinity? At the least, it limits choices within... 50-80 tons. Really, it's a near impossibility.

Well, I understand that. It's almost always 'pick two' when it comes to both IS and Clan - only the Timber Wolf and Stormcrow can do all three, and only the Timber Wolf can fulfill it thoroughly with JJs.

But to be honest, I'm here for alternatives. I already know about the Timber Wolf - it's my mainstay. I'm fine with missing one of the three, but I guess good shielding takes precedence over good maneuverability, since the style I'm using tends to stick to cover anyway. Of course, good firepower is a must - I prefer destroying my foes as fast as I can to eliminate them from the fight.

Oh, and I forgot to mention (editing into first post). Said alpha has to converge well as much as possible, and have good locations as well. This ties indirectly to the shielding point - if all the weapons were on one side, one could sacrifice a side as a shield and even poke with only half exposure.

About Cataphracts, they're definitely not tanky by the normal sense of the word. I think they are one of the few where good shielding and poking are vital to survival, not just options for added efficiency. Then again, I might be unfair here - my current 0XP build has an entire shield left side that takes advantage of its blocky shape for maximum tankage. They're still relatively easy to shoot at, but at least they won't lose half their firepower TBR-style from having a ST sheared right off.

Victors... well, they're meant to be fast strikers. IS TBRs, roughly. But I still can't get over their ST vulnerability. Plus, see the 'convergence' point - low-slung arm hardpoints are hard to work with even with JJs.

Highlanders... well, no. No idea why, but it just... doesn't feel right, even with Standard 325, JJs, and a 40. Honestly, same goes for the Victor - I have not a clue why.

Enforcers? Frankly, we're reaching the point where we can't quite get to 30 anymore without sacrifices. And the Hunchback-4G can do the 20 way better than any other options at this point.

Okay, I might be unfair here. But I'm honestly looking for a good discussion on pinpoint builds, because it's the style that I've found a home in, and I'm always looking out for the best.

Edited by Questia, 23 May 2015 - 08:25 AM.


#4 Wildstreak

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Posted 23 May 2015 - 09:06 AM

View PostxDust, on 23 May 2015 - 06:35 AM, said:

If we go lower on the scale, the Enforcer at 50 tons has enough to do a decent pinpoint damage, AC/10 and fiddle around to fit a PPC. Maneuverable and tanky.

View PostQuestia, on 23 May 2015 - 08:24 AM, said:

Enforcers? Frankly, we're reaching the point where we can't quite get to 30 anymore without sacrifices. And the Hunchback-4G can do the 20 way better than any other options at this point.

Having run both, the Hunchback has to get close to deal that AC20, the Enforcer can do 18 at some range a bit more if you add MLs, has better speed sometimes and JJs, takes damage to STs less and none of the RT weakness. I found the Enforcer tougher than the Hunchback.

If you don't mind the heat, this is an option.
So is this, LBX may not be seen as pinpoint but spread is reduced.

#5 xDust

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Posted 23 May 2015 - 09:06 AM

Well with the CTF-3D, you can do Gauss + 2xPPC with proper shaving of armor. AC/20 + 2xPPC can work maybe but I'm not sure about the tonnage. AC/10 + 2xPPC is closer to feasible, but the tonnage is still very tight. But any of these builds, you can't do a shield side because you run out of slots to fit them to one side. Cataphract arms aren't exactly great at shielding. Cataphract fronts are huge targets. If you want tanky, you can't use an XL to save weight. ES will only get you so far in terms of tonnage.

Having JJs only takes away from the tonnage. A quick Smurfy build working off of the Standard 280 (+1 internal HS) the CTF-3D(C) comes with, and I can get 368 out of 434 armor and AC/20 + 2xPPC with 4 tons left. No ammo or JJs fitted yet.

With an AC/10 (if you're willing to work with the wonkiness of the AC/10), I can get 6 tons left, no ammo or JJs. But if you also upgrade to FF Armor, there's enough slots to accommodate remaining tonnage.

And I'm not sure if any of these builds would qualify as 'manageable heat'.

If you're willing to run an XL 300, you can do Gauss + 2xPPC fairly well. With just ES Structure and the weapons, it has 8.5 tons free for ammo, JJs, and even armor. CTF-3D / XL 300 / 416 Armor / Gauss (40) + 2xPPC / 3xJJ

Or just look at ProfessorD's post below, because those are likely better builds.

Edited by xDust, 23 May 2015 - 09:22 AM.


#6 ProfessorD

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Posted 23 May 2015 - 09:13 AM

MWO's pre-Clan meta says hello, Questia!

I suppose you weren't playing in 2013 or 2014, or you'd know that the type of build you're asking for was basically all that was used in competition for a long time. Gauss + 2x PPC is an old favorite. Some examples (that all happen to have JJ, from an old forum post I made trying to explain such builds to my unit):

CTF-3D
Alternate CTF-3D for full shielding
VTR-DS Fast XL engine
VTR-DS Standard engine for full shielding

Of course, you can go for 40 point alpha at short range with 2x AC20s on Jagermechs or Catapults. You can also fit AC20 + PPC in a few places, like a Shadowhawk or Dragon. You can also fit dual gauss on several chassis, like the CTF-3D, Jager, and Catapult.

People cried about builds like this a lot, of course, because this is MWO. This kind of build actually does require quite a bit of skill to use well, though, because you really need to reliably drop those alpha strikes on CTs to get kills and you will be out DPS'd by a wide margin by modern Clan builds or quirk heavy builds if they can keep you in sight.

Good hunting!

Edited by ProfessorD, 23 May 2015 - 09:46 AM.


#7 Leone

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Posted 23 May 2015 - 11:41 PM

BNC-3M. XL it and you've decent speed. No arm weapons, so extra tanky. Three PPC a side torso, thou I prefer to fire two then two then two, due to ghost heat. Only drawback, can't brawl, but hey, wasn't in your requirements. And I have finished a match as last mech standing with it.

Of course, there are other maps where folk realize, 'Hey, those can't be ER' and brawl inna me.

~Leone, Raid Leader of the Crimson Hand.

Edited by Leone, 23 May 2015 - 11:51 PM.


#8 juxstapo

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 08:30 AM

3x PPC's can do it, but was never recommended for an Alpha beast because of the time to cooldown. 2x Particle Cannon with a ballistic has been the way to go since MW4.

Small considerations: AC/20 + 2x PPC means you have a narrowish sweet spot for range, not unworkable since the 20 can cover the minimum range of the particle cannons decently, but otherwise you are working between the PPC's 80m minimum and whatever your comfort zone is with the 20.

AC/10 + 2x PPC Easy Peasy. Projectile speed is the same, range is sufficiently copacetic, and it's easy to fit on various chassis. (If you're looking for an PPFLDS build, you're looking for XL engines, basically).

Gauss + 2x PPC was the multiple game meta, yay! Before anyone hates too much it was also the tabletop meta for many many chassis (think Clanbuster, yo). The charge mechanic made it... interesting, but nowhere near impossible. Tap the PPC's when you let go the gauss. No biggy.

Don't hate on the 2x Gauss builds. Their only real drawback is ammo dependency.

@!#% I was going to follow with thoughts on chassis but I have to get back to work now, here's to frittering away your lunch break.

#9 Templar Dane

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 05:57 PM

TDR 5SS. 7 medium pulse lasers. 42 pinpoint damage, standard engine, 20 heat sinks, tough nut to crack.

STK 4N 6 large lasers. 27 pinpoint damage, twice. Toughest mech in the game.

GHR 5N 2 large pulse lasers, 6 medium lasers. 52 pinpoint damage, but runs hot.

Any dual gauss Jager. Firebrand can pack 6 small lasers as well.

CPLT K2 for the reasons above.

Wubmaster...........

#10 Rear Admiral Tier 6

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Posted 24 May 2015 - 06:16 PM

HGN-733C with UACs and PPC:s has always been good,now its good for corner peeking,double tap for extra 10 points of damage.

HGN-732 with 3 PPC:s and a Gauss. Runs hot but is good.Try LPL:s i you over heat constantly

#11 OznerpaG

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Posted 25 May 2015 - 04:37 PM

this Firebrand is not the most effective mech, but with that insane speed it's HANDS DOWN my most fun mech to pilot. 1-shotting lights is a huge high lol. this mech requires you or will teach you to use terrain for cover. ramps (like in mining) are your best friend

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2c27fcdd1323874



this Banshee build is off the wall, but could work with good positioning and patience - key is to stay hull down. i don't even assign the MGs or SL to a button - they are there only to put the firepower mounts at cockpit level

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c9b4bd76ecfc7b9


EDIT: i guess there's this FB too - you can replace the AC10 with a gauss too if you knock off all but 1 DHS, or knock off a couple DHS and add FF
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...90afd64c76a67ed

Edited by JagdFlanker, 25 May 2015 - 05:24 PM.


#12 Moldur

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Posted 25 May 2015 - 04:44 PM

*reads maneuverability requirements*
*erases wall of text about dire wolf*

I understand your feelings OP. I get an odd sense of joy when the match ends and I have lowish damage but high kills, knowing it was because I killed several opponents by only damaging their CT.

12 small laser Nova with 4 machine guns is pretty self explanatory.
6 SPL Stormcrow with 3x srm 6. This mech is basically a knife. I get right up to people, strip their CT then blow them up.

I have yet to experiment with long range pinpoint instant damage, but ignoring the criteria about maneuverability, the Dire wolf can do 4 gauss or the even more insane 9 ppc build.

#13 Audacious Aubergine

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 05:04 AM

*reads maneuverability requirements*
*still considers suggestion of the 4 AC/5 and 2 ML Cataphract-4X*
It can be a fun build, especially with quick fire and the maxed out cooldown module for the AC/5s, and with the right amount of heatsinks it runs fairly cool too. But I absolutely had to learn that I wasn't fast enough to poke and retreat while using it, much more suited as a ballistic bear trap for someone that you think might walk around the corner you're standing behind.
Also, my Ilya atm mounts 3 AC/5, a PPC and a ML, but even with the speed tweak it's "not sluggish" at best (71-ish km/h top speed). But I've managed to do some fairly good poking with it (provided people aren't crowding behind me)

#14 Dawnstealer

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 05:13 AM

View PostQuestia, on 23 May 2015 - 03:18 AM, said:

Okay, here's something... less dramatic, and to the point.

I've somehow taken a liking for pinpoint damage. AC/20s, PPCs, Gauss, anything that drops 10 or more damage in one place works for me. It's even better, of course, if they combine to drop 30 or more damage.

I'm asking you guys this question, in relation to this new-found preference:

What is the best mech and build for unloading pinpoint damage?
There are a few criteria for this:
  • First, it has to be able to sustainably land at least 30 points of pinpoint damage. AC/20 + PPC can get that, and so can Gauss + 2 PPC. The trick here is to make ammo and heat manageable, and have them converge well enough. Bonus points if the weapons are all on the same side, for maximum shield-side and poke power.
  • Second, it has to be maneuverable enough to make its shots count. Jump Jets are high up on the list here. Speed is okay, but not too high. ECM may help, but is optional.
  • Third and lastly, it must be able to either dodge or shield against enemy fire effectively.
It's for this reason that I've gained at least a little respect for Cataphracts. They may be squishy normally, but when it comes to pinpoint-and-shield gameplay they end up being surprisingly effective and -gasp!- tanky. The 3D is the natural best for this thanks to JJs, but I don't have one - the 0XP is the one I'm currently using.



So, what's the best PPFLD mech in your opinion?

Pound for pound, totally not kidding, the Locust 1E with 6 SPL.

LCT-1E

#15 Apocryph0n

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 03:26 AM

Out of your 3 prerequisites most mechs can only really have 2.

There is one mech that excels at both Pinpoint and shielding...

Misery. AC20, 2PPC, leftsided loadout, sacrifice your whole right side to your enemys, blink at them, shoot a ST off, twist back again. @62kph it's reasonably fast with high mounted weapons (for an assault).

It's pretty much the maximum of survivability you can get with a reasonable PPFLD alpha.

Most smaller mechs might be maneuverable but they can't really shield that well.

Bonus: Stalkers are an amazing chassis in general.

#16 Randall Flagg

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 03:58 AM

Mine:

circa 2012 it was a K2 with 2 Gauss and 3 Med Lasers.
circa 2013 it was a Dragonslayer with 1 Gauss, PPC, ERPPC
circa 2014 it was a Timberwolf with 1 Gauss 5 medium lasers
circa 2015 it was a Hellbringer with 1 Gauss, 3-4 medium lasers

#17 TVMA Doc

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Posted 28 May 2015 - 03:57 PM

View Postlordtzar, on 24 May 2015 - 05:57 PM, said:

TDR 5SS. 7 medium pulse lasers. 42 pinpoint damage, standard engine, 20 heat sinks, tough nut to crack. STK 4N 6 large lasers. 27 pinpoint damage, twice. Toughest mech in the game. GHR 5N 2 large pulse lasers, 6 medium lasers. 52 pinpoint damage, but runs hot. Any dual gauss Jager. Firebrand can pack 6 small lasers as well. CPLT K2 for the reasons above. Wubmaster...........


Nice builds, although arguably lasers are not "pinpoint damage" due to the duration of the beam. It not only requires that the user keep the beam focuses on the same mech compartment, but also requires that the target not rotate, etc. to spread damage.

AC/gauss/PPCs are true pinpoint damage. It is front loaded to a single area.

#18 TVMA Doc

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Posted 28 May 2015 - 04:03 PM

View PostxDust, on 23 May 2015 - 09:06 AM, said:

Well with the CTF-3D, you can do Gauss + 2xPPC with proper shaving of armor. AC/20 + 2xPPC can work maybe but I'm not sure about the tonnage. AC/10 + 2xPPC is closer to feasible, but the tonnage is still very tight. But any of these builds, you can't do a shield side because you run out of slots to fit them to one side. Cataphract arms aren't exactly great at shielding. Cataphract fronts are huge targets. If you want tanky, you can't use an XL to save weight. ES will only get you so far in terms of tonnage.

Having JJs only takes away from the tonnage. A quick Smurfy build working off of the Standard 280 (+1 internal HS) the CTF-3D(C) comes with, and I can get 368 out of 434 armor and AC/20 + 2xPPC with 4 tons left. No ammo or JJs fitted yet.

With an AC/10 (if you're willing to work with the wonkiness of the AC/10), I can get 6 tons left, no ammo or JJs. But if you also upgrade to FF Armor, there's enough slots to accommodate remaining tonnage.

And I'm not sure if any of these builds would qualify as 'manageable heat'.

If you're willing to run an XL 300, you can do Gauss + 2xPPC fairly well. With just ES Structure and the weapons, it has 8.5 tons free for ammo, JJs, and even armor. CTF-3D / XL 300 / 416 Armor / Gauss (40) + 2xPPC / 3xJJ

Or just look at ProfessorD's post below, because those are likely better builds.

Interesting. I never thought about splitting up gauss ammo into 1/2 ton lots if there were enough slots available. I'm assuming that helps to soak up some of the crits to delay detonation of the rifle itself?

#19 That Dawg

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Posted 29 May 2015 - 02:55 AM

4 gauss dire is a blast, but 6 tons ammo isn't enough, and really strips armor off

4 ERPPC warhawk is quite a thrill once mastered, ok fast, good armor, ok agile.

Edited by That Dawg, 29 May 2015 - 02:55 AM.


#20 The Mechiac

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Posted 29 May 2015 - 03:51 AM

you want a jump sniper? I'll tell you the best jump sniper in the game right now

your not gonna like it but it is the best with our current "Hover jets"

PNT-9R

nothing bigger then a light can get high enough off the ground, and the 40% ppc velocity quirk helps a lot.

the 10k varient has the same quirk for erppcs, but erppcs are too hot to run more then one of them.

Edit: fixed link

Edited by Mechiac, 29 May 2015 - 03:53 AM.






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