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[Tiamat of the Sea]

Quote

A basic point-by-point for those who haven't much time:

• The Stormcrow is head and shoulders (heh) above other Clan 'mechs currently.
  
• The Timber Wolf is not quite as overly powerful, but is still significantly stronger than other options for Clan pilots.
  
• These two 'mechs are at a different point power-wise than other Clan 'mechs and being that there are two of them and a lot more of 'other Clan 'mechs', they should be made less powerful to put them closer in line with their cohort.
  
• The Stormcrow's actual strengths are in torso twisting, body shape, and hitbox shape, giving it exceptionally strong tanking capability and the ability to consider even the fastest 'mechs' speed not a threat.
  
• The Timber Wolf is just a little bit too good at everything all at once.
  
• The right debuffs for the Stormcrow involve its torso twisting capacity and changing the shape of its hitboxes a bit.
  
• The right debuff(s) for the Timber Wolf is making it slightly taller, slightly bigger, or, failing that, just making it a very little bit less agile- nothing close to removing an efficiency, just small 2.5% or so debuffs to turning and twisting and such.
  
• Anti-laserboating work is neat and all, but that's not the problem that makes these two chassis such standouts.

The Stormcrow and Timber Wolf are essentially known, at this point, to be the best two of all the Clan 'mechs out there- and quite possibly (depending upon who you ask) the best 'mechs out there period. Some will attach the condition 'if the pilot knows what they are doing', others won't, and a lot of newer players to the game have trouble, at least at first, figuring out how to drive or how to deal with others who drive these machines.

After a lot of thought and some observation of the ridiculous proportion of those two 'mechs in particular being driven in Community Warfare- and especially the Battle of Tukayyid event- I've come up with an analysis of what appears to be the source of the power found in these chassis and what changes would most likely reduce their dominance without making them useless.

I can't promise to be absolutely 100% objective, mostly because anyone promising such either can't be a player of the game, or must be lying. However, I -can- promise that I will mark my opinion where it appears with words like 'I think', 'I feel', and 'I believe'.

This is going to be a rather long post, because I'm going to be analyzing the game, the mechanics of the game, and providing thoughts regarding those mechanics. If you're just going to say this is a 'wall of text' (which it isn't, a 'wall of text' is a mass of words with no paragraph breaks), 'too long', 'too long; didn't read' or 'way more writing than we need', then please don't bother- you'll have wasted your time and that of anyone else looking here.

If, however, you want to comment on particular balance, rules, quirks, reasoning, et cetera, please do so. I'm hoping that the folks over at PGI will read what I've typed here and consider it, even if they disagree, and an actual discussion of the thoughts presented will help everyone involved (me included) get a better perspective whether or not there is a problem, what the problem is, and what the good potential solutions to the problem are.

I'm not really entertaining the idea of adjusting Clan weapons, Clan equipment, or the omnimech system at this point, because the balance of any of these affects all of the 'mechs- making the SCR and TWF weaker this way would also make all other Clan 'mechs weaker by the same amount, and that would create at least as many problems as it would solve. It's better to reduce the degree of variation in power than to move the whole thing down (or up).

Why the Stormcrow and Timber Wolf?

That's really the biggest question, isn't it? What is it about these two chassis that makes them so powerful in this game?

It seems to me as though both of these 'mechs have a combination of benefits that, together, outweigh the benefits of all other chassis if one ignores quirks, and most other chassis even if one includes quirks. I'm going to go over these one by one, but for each element, I'm going to consider both chassis. While they do share certain elements of their power with each other, there are also advantages that are stronger in one or missing in the other.

It's important that the strength of these 'mechs comes from multiple sources- a lot of 'solutions' to the prevalence of the two chassis suggest that only one mechanic is the problem and needs to be toned down, or that only one disadvantage should be applied and that one disadvantage will somehow 'fix the balance issue'. Frankly, this is a bit silly, and has a lot of potential to wind up with these two 'mechs pigeonholed into one role each while still staying as powerful as they currently are. Doing that wouldn't actually solve any problems at all, it would just result in another mono-flavor metagame, much like when the one Thunderbolt had those ridiculous ER PPC quirks (I never took advantage of them, so you'll have to pardon me for neither recalling nor terribly caring at this point which Thunderbolt that was.)

This is especially relevant now that the May 19th quirks have come in and hammered both 'mechs specifically on their use of laser weapons. Now, I can't be absolutely certain, but it certainly never felt to me like a laser-focused Stormcrow or Timberwolf was particularly stronger or weaker than, say, a Streak SRM loaded Stormcrow, or a Timberwolf with two large pulse lasers and 24 SRMs (and jump jets). This is a perfect example of the exact kind of fix I reasoned against just a moment ago in the previous paragraph- rather than reaching for the aspects that make these two 'mechs strong, this debuff is much more narrow-sighted and focused on only one method of using each of these two 'mechs.

At any rate, let's look at what makes these 'mechs so great, shall we?

Construction

This is where we first find advantage in the two chassis in question. Both the Stormcrow and Timber Wolf have advantages from the shape of the 'mech that affect their gameplay.

The Stormcrow is a tall 'mech, much like many other recent Medium weight 'mechs. However, it has three serious shape advantages.

• The main body of the torso is flat. When the Stormcrow twists towards one side or the other, it is very easy for the 'mech to present a shape that is less than half the width of its shoulders, vastly reducing the target zone. This is especially notable because when a pilot instinctively aims for the 'center of mass' of the torso, they are still firing within the zone that is affected by this. As an additional side effect, LRMs that are incoming can be easily guided into the location with the most remaining armor, and even high-angle LRM fire can be taken on the back panels if desired by twisting and leaning down.
  
• While active, a Stormcrow's legs are a smaller portion of the 'mech's height than its torso. This makes it difficult to fire on the part of the 'mech that is not affected by torso twisting, whether the Stormcrow is in the open or peeking over an obstacle.
  
• The Stormcrow's cockpit is mounted below its main torso. This means that, while a pilot must expose a significant portion of the 'mech in order to shoot over obstacles, it is very easy to place weapons into the 'mech that will allow it to do so. This in turn results in even more protection for the legs, because the pilot does not have to guess whether or not an obstacle protects their legs or learn to estimate their leg height to keep them protected- if you can just barely see over it in a Stormcrow you can shoot over it and your legs are protected, no exceptions.

The main upshot of this is that a Stormcrow's vital components- the torso and leg components- are all very well protected by nature. This isn't so bad on its own, honestly. Awesomes and Blackjacks share the flat torso for a twist-shielding advantage, Awesomes (again) and Mist Lynxes share the torso-to-legs proportion advantage, and most forms of Battlemaster have a similar cockpit-to-torso-weapon advantage as well. Still, no other 'mech comes to mind as having all three of these elements together. I don't think that this alone qualifies the Stormcrow as overly powerful, mind, nor do I feel like these strengths need to be taken from the machine.









The Timber Wolf is a short 'mech for a Heavy classification, at least once it's powered on. Like the Quickdraw, its height is not properly indicated in the 'mechbay- it 'crouches' while running or while shut down on the battlefield. However, where this effect slightly mitigates the inconvenient height of the Quickdraw, it improves an advantage of the Timber Wolf.

• The Timber Wolf is short and wide (when active, thanks to leg bending) compared to other Heavy 'mechs. While this is inconvenient for shooting around corners, a lot more of the game's shooting advantage positions relate to shooting over obstacles, so the 'wide' part is of no issue. Being short, however, is a major advantage. The reduced height of the chassis makes it much easier to find cover to protect one from fire.
  
• The Timber Wolf's legs are shielded in part by its arms. This, combined with the overall reduced height of the 'mech and the way the legs compact during a match, makes it exceptionally difficult to leg a Timber Wolf- comparable to trying to leg the slightly taller but equally broad and typically much less mobile Cataphract.
  
• While the majority of the Timber Wolf's torso is not the flat 'book' shape of the Stormcrow, it does have the broad flat shoulders when weapon mounts are used there, which allows it to perpetrate the same defense- twisting to vastly reduce the target area of the 'mech, and leaning forwards and down to soak fire on the rear panels that comes in from above.

The result of this is a 'mech that is very good at concealing itself behind cover when compared to other Heavy-class machines, granting it improved durability compared to other Clan 'mechs. The advantages are slightly different from the Stormcrow- where the Stormcrow is very difficult to hit when it can torso twist with some added leg protection, the Timber Wolf is very difficult to leg with some added protection when it can torso twist. It's still a nice collusion of shape. While the Timber Wolf shares its arm-shielded legs with the Cataphract, partially flat shape with the Stormcrow, and height and width with the Nova, it again has a set of shape advantages that isn't shared entirely with any one other 'mech.









Hitboxes

Both 'mechs have advantages in their hitboxes as well- specifically in the allocation of which portions of the 'mech are applied to which hitbox.



The Stormcrow, I feel, has the better hitbox deal, which would account significantly for the extreme difficulty of destroying the things. A merely decent pilot in a Stormcrow appears to be able to negate and/or withstand an amount of incoming fire that would put virtually any Heavy or Assault class 'mech into the scrapheap.

• The side torso hitboxes of the Stormcrow are positioned and shaped to cover both shoulders in their entirety from the side, as well as a portion of the projecting center torso area. On its own this isn't too bad- surely it's alright to be able to soak damage coming in from the side on the side torso? Where this seems to become an issue is with the 'mech twisting its torso in combat. The overall shape of the 'mech means that any fire coming in on the upper third of the torso when it twists has absolutely no chance of hitting the center torso, unlike with other flat-torso 'mechs like the Blackjack or Awesome, whose center torsos stick out enough to still take fire at any height. Even at the center of the 'mech's torso, twisting reduces the center torso to less than a third of the 'mech's thickness, forcing pilots to aim to the side. The torso projection near the bottom of the Stormcrow's body only makes things worse in this regard, as torso twisting literally swings the center torso so far out to the side that a pilot firing on the 'Crow has to predict which direction the Stormcrow is going to twist if they want to have any chance of hitting the center torso.
  
• The leg hitboxes do not encompass the entire hip. In most situations this would be a vulnerability for a 'mech, allowing its center torso to take fire while it is twisted away. However, for a 'mech whose center torso rarely takes fire anyways thanks to its twist advantage, this instead provides added protection- an enemy who is firing on the legs will wind up dealing incidental damage to the center torso that is taken away from their attempt to leg the machine, and an enemy with the firepower to take out the center torso is likely to be a taller 'mech- in which case the positioning of the arms and torso projection on the Stormcrow, combined with the relatively small size of its hips, make this peculiarity of the hitboxes difficult or impossible to take advantage of.
  
• Finally, the side torso hitboxes are shaped almost perfectly to match the shape of the 'mech's arms. This means that a twisting 'Crow has even more shielding protecting its side torso components, further improving the value of torso twisting over the other advantages the 'mech already has.

The hitbox advantages of the Stormcrow are not independently enough to constitute a huge effectiveness boost for the 'mech, but they all put further stock in torso twisting, amplifying the benefit there. The combination of advantageous hitboxes particularly for torso twisting and particularly good shielding arms is really only seen in 'mechs that are intended to be renowned for their durability, such as the Thunderbolt or Awesome, both of which have these advantages partly as a way to mitigate the exceptional ease with which they take incoming fire. I would use a Clan 'mech to provide an example of something comparable, but as the only option that really presents itself there is the Timber Wolf, I don't think that would be very constructive.









The Timber Wolf has other hitbox advantages that, while not as blatantly strong as those of the Stormcrow, greatly contribute to its durability, particularly in skilled hands.

• The Timber Wolf's side torsos run irregularly up the center torso along the projecting front of the 'mech. As with the Catapult and Raven, this makes it very difficult for someone firing on the Timber Wolf's main body to actually select their targeted component and, as with the Catapult and Raven, this contributes to the durability of the 'mech.
  
• As with the original Cataphract hit boxes, the torso hitboxes extend onto what, visually, appears to be the shoulder of the arm. This, combined with the spindly, wide-slung shape of the arms, makes it very unlikely for shots to even hit Timber Wolf arms, excepting when an enemy is trying to shoot the thing in the legs. Given the frailty of 'mech arms compared to other components and the selection of arm hardpoints in the Timber Wolf, this gives the 'mech an advantage in close combat.
  
• The positioning of the side torso panels along the projecting front makes it very easy for the 'mech to spread damage by torso twisting in combat. I have seen, with relatively little twisting, a Timber Wolf with a bright red armorless center torso take raking laser fire from an enemy in front of it for more than a few volleys without falling thanks to this, soaking damage with its still-armored center torsos.

Again, the Timber Wolf's advantages are more mitigatable than the Stormcrow's, but they're still in collusion with its shape advantages to give the 'mech unprecedented durability. It's a little harder to take advantage of these traits, though, which helps explain the threads that have popped up now and then in the New Player forum about 'why aren't I wrecking face in my shiny new Mad Cat?'









Base Capability

In this case, I'm talking about the abilities of the 'mech that are not derived from weapons mounts, omni-pods, or quirks.

The Stormcrow really shines here, particularly by abusing its already nice collusion of the abilities above.

• The torso twist of the Stormcrow is 130 degrees. In the Inner Sphere, only two 'mechs get this as well- the Griffin and the Locust (who varies from 125 to 135). The only other Clan 'mech that's really comparable is the Ice Ferret with its consistent 135. Of the other 'mechs with comparable (120 degree plus) torso twist ranges, only the Jenner and Cicada approach the Stormcrow's degree of twist-friendliness in terms of arm and side torso protection, though both have glaring issues (the Jenner's center torso sticking way the heck out in front, and the Cicada having such long legs that they're basically impossible to protect.) Combining a torso twist friendly structure with torso twist friendly hitboxes -and- the ability to twist farther than nearly everything else grants the Stormcrow a degree of durability that is, frankly, kind of ridiculous.
  
• The Stormcrow has a very beneficial base for loading things into it. It has 29 critical hit slots free after base equipment- up to 33 if hands or lower arms are removed- and even when it mounts maximum armor, it can carry just shy of 23 tonnes of equipment.
  
• Just in case its ability to twist nearly 180 degrees once Elited (+20% twist range gives it 156 degree torso twist) wasn't enough to let it target enemies, the Stormcrow can also mount lower arms (hands grant even more lateral motion but aren't actually needed at this point), making it impossible to escape the thing's target locks or arm weapons in close combat. This boosts most importantly the power of Streak missiles, particularly against faster 'mechs, to ridiculous levels, and makes multi-layer ECM or very large numbers of AMSes the only solution for a light or medium 'mech that doesn't want to be torn apart on contact with a Stormcrow carrying significant Streak missiles.

While the critical hit slot and tonnage capacity of the Stormcrow is very nice but not egregious, the fact that it has even more capabilities that combine with the previous lists to make torso twisting amazing is really pushing the envelope here. While it's not as obvious as, say, a +50% fire rate on a specific weapons system (Hi, Huginn, CN9-D, DRG-1N!), having a large number of effects promoting a particular action (in this case torso twisting) so as to make that one action or quality much better results in potential balance issues. If the list stopped here, I think it would still be relatively tolerable, but it literally can't- the last element provides the vital 'last straw' that renders the Stormcrow an, in my opinion, excessively strong 'mech.









The Timber Wolf, on the other hand, has relatively minor points here.

• The Timber Wolf has a fairly good base for loading equipment. While it only has enough mass remaining for 27 tonnes of equipment and a spare machine gun, it already has five extra double heat sinks in it thanks to the 375-rating engine, and 31 free critical hit slots- 33 if the lower arm actuators are pulled out.
  
• The Timber Wolf is fast for its weight. With its favorable hitboxes and shape, the XL engine isn't too much of a risk either, even compared to other Clan XL engines.

There's not much to say here. Aside from an incredible base ability to soak up heat, the Timber Wolf doesn't gain much in the way of default abilities. Yes, it's faster than most other Heavy class 'mechs, but on its own that doesn't account for as much as it could. It does provide better agility that helps... well, pretty much everything, but it's not too bad. The Timber Wolf's greatest capacity comes in the last element, which is where everything previous gets applied as a sort of multiplying factor.









Omnipods and Weapon Hardpoints

I consider 'Omnipods' and 'Weapon Hardpoints' to be separate things. When I mention an omnipod, I'm talking about how many and what variety of weapons and certain equipment the 'mech in question can mount in that component. When I mention a hardpoint, I'm talking about where on the frame of the 'mech a given weapon is mounted. So, for instance, when I say that the Kit Fox has good ballistic hardpoints, I'm referring to their position on the high shoulders of a machine, but when I say it has a good ECM omnipod, I mean that the right arm omnipod that grants the ECM hardpoint provides a good set of equipment mounts.

The Stormcrow continues to shine here- not quite as brightly as the Timber Wolf, but that's largely because the Stormcrow's other qualities mean that several of its omnipods simply matter less.

• The Stormcrow's torso hardpoints are excellent. Everything mounted in the center torso is mounted close in and above the cockpit. Remembering that the Stormcrow has an advantage when peeking already, it now has the further advantage of being able to shoot over everything it can see over with its torso mounts.
  
• The Stormcrow's torso omnipods are excellent. There is literally nothing you can do to a Stormcrow that will reduce its fantastic torso twist range, and the majority of the torso omnipods actually increase the speed with which it twists, making it vastly easier to benefit from its twist-friendly... uh.... absolutely everything.
  
• On the downside, the Stormcrow's only ballistic omnipods are on its left arm. Given Clan tech, this isn't much of a downside, but it does reduce options a little bit.
  
• Actually, Stormcrow arm omnipods largely don't matter in comparison. The pods for the torso provide enough or plenty (depending on whether the 2M left torso is taken or not) hardpoints that are mounted higher, and the incredible twist range on the Stormcrow means that the only reason to mount a weapon in its arm is for better vertical range- and the Stormcrow already has pretty good vertical range on the torso anyways.
  
• The Stormcrow can mount a lot of Streak missile racks (mostly in the torso). Combining this with its huge torso twist (and the potential addition of arm range to find locks) makes it a bane to Light 'mechs and lighter Medium class 'mechs- and combining this further with the Clan Streak-6 makes it a devastating encounter for pretty much anything short of a high-durability Heavy.
  
• The Stormcrow can mount a Clan head weapon. This means you can have any energy weapon short of a Large Pulse Laser or an ERPPC and be guaranteed that if you're still playing, you've still got it.
  
• The Stormcrow can easily torso-boat energy weapons. Lots of hardpoint mounts, in an advantageous, difficult to hit area. That 6E right arm is obviated pretty much just by this.
  
• The Stormcrow can mount pretty much anything it cares about in the torso. Put together with the torso twisting advantages, the shielding arms, and the ability to minimize its profile, this means that it's not only able to soak or appear to soak far more damage than anticipated, it can also retain the majority of its weapons through nearly the whole process.

The result of this is a 'mech that comes through as overpowered not through a single trait that can be targeted for reduction, but through a collision of abilities that pushes the maximum performance envelope of the Stormcrow beyond any other Medium 'mech currently in the game.









The Timber Wolf gets its greatest benefits here, in the form of combined flexibility and some odd off-advantages. Most of the benefit the Timber Wolf gets comes from the omnipod system itself, thanks to the sheer variety of weapon mounts available to the machine.

• The Timber Wolf has a jump capable variant that mounts jets in all three torso locations. Despite the fixing of the jets into the omnipods, this means that it is very easy for any Timber Wolf to get the terrain-crossing advantage of just one or two jump jets without making much of a sacrifice. This is further compounded by the fact that the side torso omnipods that grant jump jets provide a more flexible set of hardpoints than most other omnipods- particularly the Right Torso S omnipod, which combines the hardpoints of all the other Right Torso omnipods.
  
• Speaking of torso omnipods and hardpoints, how about those hardpoints? Lots of nice high mounts for the most important weapons. High mount streak missiles or LRM racks with a minimal impact on the 'mechs appearance (and that help to shield the upper center torso) and now the new Left Torso omnipod that grants a set of high-mount energy hardpoints for sniping with, where previous side torso energy hardpoints on the 'mech were mounted at or below cockpit level.
  
• When it comes to overall flexibility, the Timber Wolf is pretty much king. Energy and ballistic mounts anywhere on the 'mech that you want them, and while missiles are torso-only, you can pick which side they're on. There really aren't any other Clan 'mechs with this kind of hardpoint flexibility in terms of what goes where. The Cauldron Born will be the first other 'mech to compete on this ground, actually.

This flexibility, particularly combined with its high initial heat sink load, gives the Timber Wolf not only a very wide array of purposes, but also the capacity to be built as a 'one sided' 'mech with a shielding torso and arm that further push the durability its hitboxes already give it when twisting to soak. Not as egregiously as the Stormcrow, but still enough to matter.









Strictly Better Stormcrow

The Stormcrow, to sum up, has a strong set of advantages not because any one of them is excessive, but because they are found together on one 'mech.

With fantastic torso twist range and a tendency to high torso twist speed, the Stormcrow can easily use its well-placed and unimportant arms to shield its side torsos while providing a narrow profile to enemy fire and twisting back for bursts of weapons fire that come in from above or at the level of its cockpit. This in turn allows it to shield its legs, the only part that don't benefit from the torso twisting, behind obstacles even as minor as dips in the terrain. This same twist range and speed makes it difficult to get the jump on a Stormcrow as well.

Light 'mechs don't provide a solution here either- between the large Streak racks it can easily mount, the ability to mount Lower Arm actuators regardless of its main armament, and its huge torso twist, Stormcrows are light 'mech deathtraps.

This gives the Stormcrow, overall, a huge advantage in both durability and offense at the same time.

The specific advantages of the Stormcrow give me certain inclinations to what would make good adjustments for it.

I Would Suggest:

• Reduce the base torso twist range of the Stormcrow. Not a huge amount, maybe 10-15 degrees. The current torso twist makes it literally impossible for a light 'mech to actually escape Streak missile locks from the 'crow, which is not something it needs stacked onto its other advantages.
  
• Remove the torso twist speed quirks from the torso sections that have them and apply minor (-5% or less, maybe -7.5% if it turns out to be really needed) twist speed quirks to the torso sections that didn't already have quirks. This would make it just a touch more difficult to soak as much damage with the Stormcrow, and might actually make torso omnipod selection matter for purposes of soaking damage.
  
• As an alternative to the previous point, reduce side torso and arm durability. I'd prefer not to suggest this, but it is an option. Probably should be avoided if possible.
  
• Adjust the side torso hitboxes, particularly around the torso projection. Not sure how exactly, but making them a less-perfect match for the arm shape would be a decent start, as would anything that makes the center torso a little easier to hit when trying to shoot it. Not a -lot- easier, they should still reach out along at least part of the projection, but enough to matter.

These are the options that immediately come to mind. I may come back and edit the post to add more thoughts later.









Hungry Like The Wolf

I wouldn't say the Timber Wolf needs a whole -lot- of work. It has advantages- lots of flexibility, good speed, a huge default heat sinking capability, protected legs, a vertically small profile, easy damage spreading- but it doesn't seem as obviously out of line to me as the Stormcrow does. Its arms even give it 'holes' between them and the torso that enemy fire can safely pass through, which skilled players can abuse a bit.

It does soak damage quite well for a Heavy 'mech, and the fact that it can hide behind things that even lighter 'mechs can't use as cover is a bit stressing, but overall it's not too bad. Unlike the Stormcrow, it's not soaking damage considerably beyond its tonnage, nor does it have the ability to point in any direction by just torso twist.

I would suggest:

• Reduce the overall agility of the Timber Wolf in small ways. Very small. It would be insanely difficult to try and reduce its ability to function in every role in any other way, given that making it larger is apparently just not an option. Something along the lines of a -2.5% turning speed, -2.5% torso twist speed, -2.5% arm movement speed kind of a thing. Something small. The Timber Wolf is not horrifyingly powerful, but it is a bit stronger than it needs to be in just a general way.

What's Already Been Done

Lots of laser downquirks! Yaaay?

I'll be honest, I don't really understand this. The predilection to beamspam currently is not purely a Timberwolf/Stormcrow problem. In fact, neither of these 'mechs is remarkably better at laser lightshows than most other Clan 'mechs. The fact that it's being done with them more than other 'mechs is purely a result of these two 'mechs being used more.

On the Stormcrow especially, this is a meaningless change, because it does precisely squat about the immensely useful Splatcrow (SRMs) and Streakcrow (Streak SRMS) builds that are quite terrifying enough on their own thanks.

I can kind of understand the idea that extended laser burn times mean more exposure to enemy fire with less chance to twist away before incoming damage hits, but that's really of minimal value as a debuff to the Stormcrow, which has missile options. It doesn't even do too much to the Timber Wolf, which has always been fairly good at close combat anyways.

I think these new nega-quirks could stand to be removed and replaced with changes that actually address the strengths of the Stormcrow especially, and the Timber Wolf certainly didn't need to be hammered in such a fashion either.

Edited by Quickdraw Crobat, 26 May 2015 - 07:59 AM.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

A bump to keep this in the common awareness.

[Telmasa]

How about a poll and TL/DR cliffnotes version up at the top of the OP, like something you could see yourself handing Russ in the middle of a very busy day without him just balking at the wall of text?

I mean we forum warriors have the time to read, but...y'know? lol

Edited by Telmasa, 23 May 2015 - 04:24 PM.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Don't wanna poll, not gonna poll. Even if I put a Cliff's Notes at the top, I don't think I could shorten it enough to make a poll that I would consider acceptable to put at the top. I'd rather the idea be looked at as itself, not as a short blurb. Bad enough some people will skip the whole thing and claim I'm just whining about the Wolf and Crow because I want Clans to be weaker.

Heck, I have another topic up right now about a way to make the Summoner (and other underperformers, but I use the Summoner as an example) better and possibly also give Omnimechs more versatility with less boating.

It's over here: http://mwomercs.com/...lance-summoner/


I guess I'll put up a summary sometime tonight, though.

Edited by Quickdraw Crobat, 23 May 2015 - 04:31 PM.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Don't look now, but this is a bump.

[Firewuff]

Dude... stop spamming my digests with walls of text

[Tiamat of the Sea]

You don't even know what 'wall of text' means. Or 'spamming'.

Edited by Quickdraw Crobat, 25 May 2015 - 08:13 AM.

[Draykin]

I'm gonna be honest here, as a Clanner who loves him some Timber Wolves (but rarely plays them in favor of the Assaults/sans Gargoyle)... The laser nerfs did nothing. Literally, nothing. I do not even notice a different in burn times, and if anything, I think they managed to make the T-Wolf more heat efficient. (Longer burn = More time for heat to build/dissipate) What these 'Mechs need isn't laser nerfing, but rather minor reductions to make them less omnipresent. The T-Wolf is a highly versatile 'Mech, yes. And I completely agree that it should be nerfed some, but I'm not sure if I believe that agility/mobility nerfs are the best idea. With the Stormcrow, though, I can see how nerfing its twist speed could make a big difference.

[Telmasa]

Just toss in a bunch of bullet points at the top, at least - then if any of the things on the bullet points sounds good, they can enjoy the wall'o'text.

It just seems like Russ & the gang have a thing for needing/wanting quick, easy, simple - hence the love for Twitter as opposed for forums.

[happy mech]

locked equipment and upgrades makes other clan mechs incomparable to tbr and scr by default, i would not touch tbr and scr until equipment is unlocked and rest of the mechs can show their potential

another thing is the heat system and ghost heat, which makes it easy for tbr and scr to get high alpha easily (many energy hardpoints) but severely gimping nova (cannot overlap chainfire on 2 arms) or summoner (very few hardpoints that cannot utilize the high heat cap for high alphas)

also, clan weapons are broken, the clan weapons are what need to be fixed here first (after the upgrades and equipment is unlocked, else it would make all mechs not tbr or scr useless)

• clan narc 600 range 2 tons, IS narc 450 range 3 tons, other stats identical
  
• clan srms half weight of the IS weight
  
• clan ssrms 360 range and only 66% of IS weight, IS ssrms 270 range
  
• clan erppc 15 damage 6 weight 2 slots, IS erppc 10 damage 7 weight 3 slots

how can this nonsense still be in the game? the clan stuff has no drawbacks, and new mechs are still released, either to suck because of fixed equipmnet and not-alpha-favouring hardpoints, or to dominate because of being naturally gifted with endo and no useless heatsinks or jjs and having ecm or good hardpoints

it is year into clan invasion, and still nothing has been done about the basic stuff

Edited by happy mech, 25 May 2015 - 11:55 PM.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

happy mech, on 25 May 2015 - 11:51 PM, said:

locked equipment and upgrades makes other clan mechs incomparable to tbr and scr by default, i would not touch tbr and scr until equipment is unlocked and rest of the mechs can show their potential

The problem here is that this then gives omnimechs a flat out advantage over non-omnis (the ability to shuffle hardpoints) rather than having a different capability altogether. I am absolutely against doing this. The quirks system is in place to resolve exactly this kind of issue, and it should be used for this first.

happy mech, on 25 May 2015 - 11:51 PM, said:

another thing is the heat system and ghost heat, which makes it easy for tbr and scr to get high alpha easily (many energy hardpoints) but severely gimping nova (cannot overlap chainfire on 2 arms) or summoner (very few hardpoints that cannot utilize the high heat cap for high alphas)

As I already said, 'lots of energy hardpoints' is not the issue here, otherwise SRM-laden Crows and mixed-loadout Wolves would not be so frequent or powerful. The strengths of these two chassis are not 'it can carry lots of lasers'.

happy mech, on 25 May 2015 - 11:51 PM, said:

also, clan weapons are broken, the clan weapons are what need to be fixed here first (after the upgrades and equipment is unlocked, else it would make all mechs not tbr or scr useless)

• clan narc 600 range 2 tons, IS narc 450 range 3 tons, other stats identical
  
• clan srms half weight of the IS weight
  
• clan ssrms 360 range and only 66% of IS weight, IS ssrms 270 range
  
• clan erppc 15 damage 6 weight 2 slots, IS erppc 10 damage 7 weight 3 slots

how can this nonsense still be in the game? the clan stuff has no drawbacks, and new mechs are still released, either to suck because of fixed equipmnet and not-alpha-favouring hardpoints, or to dominate because of being naturally gifted with endo and no useless heatsinks or jjs and having ecm or good hardpoint

As far as the clan ER PPC goes, it does 10 damage in one spot and 2.5 in two other spots. I'd consider that enough of a drawback to pinpoint fire to allow the difference of one tonne and one critical hit slot. I do think that the SRM and NARC stats of both Inner Sphere and Clan 'mechs in terms of range and flight speed should be looked at thoughtfully with an eye towards evening out their comparative value, but with the material that PGI is working off of their tonnages cannot be altered without overhauling the basic precepts of the 'mech construction and customization system. I don't even think they're too badly out of line.


And again- the main issues with the Stormcrow and Timber Wolf are not the inclusion of endo steel. Sure, it's more free tonnage, but the ability of the Stormcrow to dodge or soak damage is really not matched by any other 'mech anything close to its overall tonnage. Besides that, a little bit of quirking could easily even out the effects of having 2.5 or 3.5 more tonnes of weight to work with. Just look at what happened with the ERPPC Thunderbolt and your choice of energy Awesome. (Admittedly that was also a result of ridiculous overquirking, but then, the AWS-9M is pretty heavily quirked itself.)

[happy mech]

Quickdraw Crobat, on 26 May 2015 - 08:13 AM, said:

The problem here is that this then gives omnimechs a flat out advantage over non-omnis (the ability to shuffle hardpoints) rather than having a different capability altogether. I am absolutely against doing this. The quirks system is in place to resolve exactly this kind of issue, and it should be used for this first.

omnimechs already have an advantage, thing is some come optimized (tbr, scr), other not
quirk system is here to add subtle differences between chassis variants (ac20 hbk, ac10 hbk, lrm hbk, srm hbk), not to try to compensate for for example 7.5+ ton difference on a summoner which is absolutely ridiculous (suddenly, it would be comparable to timberwolf? blasphemy!)

Quickdraw Crobat, on 26 May 2015 - 08:13 AM, said:

As I already said, 'lots of energy hardpoints' is not the issue here, otherwise SRM-laden Crows and mixed-loadout Wolves would not be so frequent or powerful. The strengths of these two chassis are not 'it can carry lots of lasers'.

their strengths are they come optimized in a system that does not allow you to optimize
many energy hardpoints just make it easier to add some erml (possibly best weapon in game) to get higher alpha (because you can with the high heat cap) or to serve as backup weapons (well, 400 range 1 ton backup, but they could be pretty balanced weapon if the heat cap was lowered)

Quickdraw Crobat, on 26 May 2015 - 08:13 AM, said:

As far as the clan ER PPC goes, it does 10 damage in one spot and 2.5 in two other spots. I'd consider that enough of a drawback to pinpoint fire to allow the difference of one tonne and one critical hit slot. I do think that the SRM and NARC stats of both Inner Sphere and Clan 'mechs in terms of range and flight speed should be looked at thoughtfully with an eye towards evening out their comparative value, but with the material that PGI is working off of their tonnages cannot be altered without overhauling the basic precepts of the 'mech construction and customization system. I don't even think they're too badly out of line.

so the clan erppc weighs 1 ton less, fills 1 less crit slot, and its drawback is it does 2.5 more damage to two more locations? really?
narc must have same range, like tag, like bap, as they serve a specific purpose and nothing else can substitue them
i agree IS and clans need to be different, lower tonnage is ok for the purpose of stock builds, but you need to balance it and give some drawbacks to it in return
clan srms and ssrms must have sequential release like the lrms have, possibly a little bit more cooldown or heatgen, there is no way a 55 ton mech can run around with srm30+a and throwing alphas around like nothing
the 360 clan ssrm range vs 270 IS is just a joke, make it 270
(and gauss)

Quickdraw Crobat, on 26 May 2015 - 08:13 AM, said:

And again- the main issues with the Stormcrow and Timber Wolf are not the inclusion of endo steel. Sure, it's more free tonnage, but the ability of the Stormcrow to dodge or soak damage is really not matched by any other 'mech anything close to its overall tonnage. Besides that, a little bit of quirking could easily even out the effects of having 2.5 or 3.5 more tonnes of weight to work with. Just look at what happened with the ERPPC Thunderbolt and your choice of energy Awesome. (Admittedly that was also a result of ridiculous overquirking, but then, the AWS-9M is pretty heavily quirked itself.)

endo+0jj+0hs, do you play your mechs without endo?
you think those mechs are survivable because they can kill you faster than you can kill them, it is combined survivability with firepower, and those two mechs have great firepower (compared to other clan mechs) which does quite bias this point, though the scr is very good in spreading damage undoubtedly
25%+ quirks are an arcade mode, something for a test server but not for game, i do not like them
awesome also suffers from poor external heatsinks, and it being an energy mech, you just will not make it work, thus the quirks

[Tesunie]

I'm sorry. Too long. Wall of text. (Could not help myself. )


Anyway, joking placed to the side, now that I got it out of my system...

Very good points. I think you hit every aspect of each mech very well. Though, I feel the Timberwolf probably is a bit more powerful than you are giving it credit for, it isn't a bad consensus either. Even with the energy nerfs though, I find those mechs are still walking in stride, and doing what they were doing before apparently without hindrance.

People "claim" that those mechs have "disappeared" in matches now. Yet I still see each (with pure heavy energy too) in my matches, if not several of them on each team.

[Baba Yogi]

They are effective because they both use FF/Endo and happen to be at the end of their weight class, also can use variety of builds. No need to overanalize.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Lordhammer, on 27 May 2015 - 02:57 PM, said:

They are effective because they both use FF/Endo and happen to be at the end of their weight class, also can use variety of builds. No need to overanalize.

If true, then for the Inner Sphere: Orion should be best in weight class, Atlas should be best in weight class, Raven (all Ravens, not just the Huginn) should be best in weight class. All of these can use endo steel (and ferro where space permits) and a variety of builds.

Tesunie, on 27 May 2015 - 11:21 AM, said:

People "claim" that those mechs have "disappeared" in matches now. Yet I still see each (with pure heavy energy too) in my matches, if not several of them on each team.

Yeah, I still see them also, both with and without heavy energy usage. Laser shackles were not warranted as lasers were not the issue. Amply demonstrated by the fact that they haven't had a noticeable impact.

Edited by Quickdraw Crobat, 27 May 2015 - 03:13 PM.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

happy mech, on 27 May 2015 - 10:42 AM, said:

omnimechs already have an advantage, thing is some come optimized (tbr, scr), other not
quirk system is here to add subtle differences between chassis variants (ac20 hbk, ac10 hbk, lrm hbk, srm hbk), not to try to compensate for for example 7.5+ ton difference on a summoner which is absolutely ridiculous (suddenly, it would be comparable to timberwolf? blasphemy!)

So you'd contest that the Cataphract and Grasshopper are not at all comparable (Edit: I'm speaking in terms of value to team, not method of function or specific purpose.) to an Orion, nor should they be?

Omnimechs do already have an advantage, and that's my point. In exchange for the advantage of getting to shuffle hardpoints, they get the disadvantage of not being able to shuffle upgrades (aside from Artemis Guidance). Quirks can be used to balance things out across chassis despite the uneven application of endo, ferro, and certain locked equipment, but if you just flat out unlock the equipment, you're giving the omnimechs something (hardpoint swapping) for nothing, which is not a way to create balance and/or equal imbalance. I'm hoping we can lean in favor of keeping the omni technology an exchange (advantage/disadvantage) rather than just a decision that one side can be better (advantage, no disadvantage).

The quirk system was explicitly put in to bring up underperforming 'mechs. The entire methodology of applying them was intended to alleviate severe disparity between the overall quality of 'mechs in the same weight class, which is why (for instance) the Cataphract 3D, Ember, and Victors simply didn't get much or even anything in the way of quirks at first and still have very short lists of relatively low-impact quirks.

The Summoner should absolutely be comparable to a Timber Wolf, particularly considering that if you take the torso sections for jump jets on a Timber Wolf, you're investing the exact same five tonne amount into jump jets that you are forced to with the Summoner!

happy mech, on 27 May 2015 - 10:42 AM, said:

their strengths are they come optimized in a system that does not allow you to optimize

That is not the entirety of their strengths, which is the entire point of my analyzing the 'mechs to begin with.

happy mech, on 27 May 2015 - 10:42 AM, said:

many energy hardpoints just make it easier to add some erml (possibly best weapon in game) to get higher alpha (because you can with the high heat cap) or to serve as backup weapons (well, 400 range 1 ton backup, but they could be pretty balanced weapon if the heat cap was lowered)

Sure, but adding backup weapons isn't really that big of an impact to be worried about- particularly since the nerfhammer lowered on the Crow and Wolf is clearly intended to penalize the player more for bringing more energy hardpoints. This is the kind of nerf you do to specifically reduce laser boating, which is not and was never the primary thing making those two 'mechs more attractive than the rest of the Clan stable.

happy mech, on 27 May 2015 - 10:42 AM, said:

so the clan erppc weighs 1 ton less, fills 1 less crit slot, and its drawback is it does 2.5 more damage to two more locations? really?

I misspoke myself a bit here. Let me put it this way- Clan 'mechs are notorious for generating high heat when you use the available equipment tonnage for energy weapons especially, but also just generally for weapons without considerable additional heat sink investment. This makes the one tonne one CHS reduction in expense of the C-ERPPC relatively a minor thing, particularly given that we're working with hardpoint limitations that by design reduce the value of that one tonne and one CHS.

If the C-ERPPC still dealt all 15 damage to a single component, that has a lot of potential to become broken because then it's lighter, smaller, longer-ranged and more powerful at pinpoint damage than the Inner Sphere ERPPC. With that damage dispersal, though, the issue is significantly mitigated, as it still only does 10 damage to the targeted location, making the extra 5 damage dealt more a convenience and less a straight upgrade in power.

happy mech, on 27 May 2015 - 10:42 AM, said:

narc must have same range, like tag, like bap, as they serve a specific purpose and nothing else can substitue them

This seems relatively reasonable. I'd like to see this tested.

happy mech, on 27 May 2015 - 10:42 AM, said:

i agree IS and clans need to be different, lower tonnage is ok for the purpose of stock builds, but you need to balance it and give some drawbacks to it in return

No argument there. I don't understand why Clan SRMs and SSRMs have no drawback to pay off their tonnage difference, but that's a cross-technology issue and most of what I'm trying to tackle here is the disparity within Clan 'mechs.

Edit: Having checked Smurfy's, I see that C-SRMs have a lower DPS (slightly) than IS SRMs despite having the same refire rate and heat generation. Can someone verify that C-SRMs have lower damage per missile or not, or some other mitigating factor? Regardless, I don't believe the difference (a whole .05 dps per missile) is significant enough to account for half-weight, but it's an interesting point.

happy mech, on 27 May 2015 - 10:42 AM, said:

clan srms and ssrms must have sequential release like the lrms have, possibly a little bit more cooldown or heatgen, there is no way a 55 ton mech can run around with srm30+a and throwing alphas around like nothing

I'm not sure about stacking all of those at once. I'd be down for looking at cooldown and heat generation alterations, but I'm not sure I'd be willing to back ripple fire SRMs. That would feel too much like copying the current Clan AC implementation, and would potentially mitigate the damage spread effect that already exists to help keep SRMs from getting out of hand- certainly not as badly as making them a single missile ala MWO Inner Sphere AC's, but enough that I'd be concerned about it.

happy mech, on 27 May 2015 - 10:42 AM, said:

the 360 clan ssrm range vs 270 IS is just a joke, make it 270

On the one hand I understand why this was done (canon!), on the other hand, I have experienced for myself why this isn't quite right. Perhaps some alternative could be sought (reduced damage beyond 270, explained as including unspent fuel as part of the explosive payload? I'm guessing here, don't quote me on this idea.) I don't think it's a huge deal, though, and I think we could get away with nothing being done on this.

happy mech, on 27 May 2015 - 10:42 AM, said:

endo+0jj+0hs, do you play your mechs without endo?

Both the Timber Wolf and Storm Crow have tonnes invested in extra heat sinks, so I'm not sure what you're suggesting exactly here, but yes, I do play many 'mechs without endo steel that others would put endo steel on, and I play 'mechs with endo steel or even endo-ferro combinations where others wouldn't. It depends on the specific build I'm trying to make.

happy mech, on 27 May 2015 - 10:42 AM, said:

you think those mechs are survivable because they can kill you faster than you can kill them, it is combined survivability with firepower, and those two mechs have great firepower (compared to other clan mechs) which does quite bias this point, though the scr is very good in spreading damage undoubtedly

No, I think the Stormcrow is survivable because I regularly see it survive in firefights that can and do bring down other 'mechs of comparable and higher weight in shorter periods of time. Many of these 'mechs that I see not surviving the same situations are driven by a wide variety of pilots who are not me.

If I thought that just because I die in it faster makes it less survivable and because I die in it slower makes it more survivable, I would be ranting all over the forums about how the Shadow Hawk needs to be tankier and the Cataphract 1X is a premier Inner Sphere damage sponge. I would be complaining that the Stalker can't survive a firefight and raving about how amazing the Awesome is as a team tank. I'm not, so clearly I don't.

happy mech, on 27 May 2015 - 10:42 AM, said:

25%+ quirks are an arcade mode, something for a test server but not for game, i do not like them

Me neither. That doesn't change the fact that quirks can change the validity of a given 'mech, as demonstrated by the change in fortunes between the Thud and Awesome on the ERPPC front. The point is not that huge quirks are good (PROTIP: they aren't), it's that applying quirks can make 'mechs and builds more and less feasible to use compared to one another, which is exactly what they're supposed to do and should be used to do.

happy mech, on 27 May 2015 - 10:42 AM, said:

awesome also suffers from poor external heatsinks, and it being an energy mech, you just will not make it work, thus the quirks

I have no idea what you're talking about with the 'external heatsinks' thing, but this is a perfect example- Awesomes were underperforming compared to other Assault 'mechs of all tonnages, thus quirks were used to bring their overall quality more in line.

Edited by Quickdraw Crobat, 27 May 2015 - 03:51 PM.

[Baba Yogi]

Quickdraw Crobat, on 27 May 2015 - 03:15 PM, said:

If true, then for the Inner Sphere: Orion should be best in weight class, Atlas should be best in weight class, Raven (all Ravens, not just the Huginn) should be best in weight class. All of these can use endo steel (and ferro where space permits) and a variety of builds.

IS mechs live and die by the quirks my friend. Also there is very little viable competition against those mechs atm since u cannot change the base stats. Summoner which essentially wastes 8.5 tons with jumpjets + no endo or hellbringer which neither uses endo nor ferro? Or nova which is the same deal with hb? Also its not that expensive yet very benefitial for 50 ton to go 300xl instead of 250, u only lose 3 tons for significant speed gain.

Also the mechs u listed are damn fine ones. Atlas-s is the best brawler by far in the game, and ravens are damn good mechs. For orions, i dont know, havent used them or seen them enough to say anything.

Edited by Lordhammer, 28 May 2015 - 04:38 AM.

[Tesunie]

Lordhammer, on 28 May 2015 - 04:32 AM, said:

IS mechs live and die by the quirks my friend. Also there is very little viable competition against those mechs atm since u cannot change the base stats. Summoner which essentially wastes 8.5 tons with jumpjets + no endo or hellbringer which neither uses endo nor ferro? Or nova which is the same deal with hb? Also its not that expensive yet very benefitial for 50 ton to go 300xl instead of 250, u only lose 3 tons for significant speed gain.

Also the mechs u listed are damn fine ones. Atlas-s is the best brawler by far in the game, and ravens are damn good mechs. For orions, i dont know, havent used them or seen them enough to say anything.

I think his point there was that, in comparison, they are the heaviest in their class. This tends to lend them to being better than other mechs of their same class. With the Raven, it's the same tonnage as the Jenner. Now, the Jenner is also a good mech, but when matched up with the Firestarter (same tonnage), the Firestarter is a "better" mech, with maybe the exception to the Raven 3L due to "invisible-can't-get-locks-ECM" being equitable. Then, at 5 tons less, the Spider is considered almost better than the Raven and Jenner as well, or a strong competitor. This is due to the Spider's hit box shapes, speed, jumping ability, and ECM hard point.

Also, if the Hellbringer has no Endo and FF (I haven't even bothered to check), I wonder why it is becoming the premier Clan mech, replacing the Timberwolf and Stormcrow for those people who are "boycotting those mechs". (Probably that ECM again.)


Do recall the Dragon though when you consider Quirks. It was considered "useless" with it's big nose you can't miss", and it was "too light to be a heavy mech". Now, after quirks, people are starting to take it again as the quirks adjusted their offensive value to give them meaning again for people to use. (Personally, I liked my Dragon before quirks. After quirks didn't really change much for my Dragon, as I basically kept it with the same loadout, the LL was replaced for the quirked ERLL, the UAC5 was replaced with a non-jamming AC5, and it retained it's dual SSRM2s.)


I think that many (though not all) of the quirks have been good things. I went from seeing only a small number of mechs on the field, to a much larger variety of mechs being in use. Not saying it's perfect, but when I see a nice mix of IS mechs in a match, I think it's a good start. (Still see way too many Thunderbolts though, which tells me that mech probably needs to have it's quirks looked at again.)

Now what we need are all the clan mechs to be looked at as well, so we can see the same basic variety of mechs there as we do with the IS side of things. However, due to omnipods and their quirks stacking, this task will be much harder, as it will be easier to stack positive quirks together. Current example: I can take the Summoner C arm (which has reduction to UAC jam chance) and place it into the Summoner D chassis. Then, I can place 2 UAC5 in the high chest mounted locations (where the MGs would normally be), giving those weapons a reduction to UAC jam chance. I went from 1 ballistic hard point with a reduced jam chance, to three. I could possibly even go triple UAC2s... (This is excluding people's opinion on the performance of clan ACs, I personally run my Thor D with dual UAC5s and quad CERMLs. It works rather well for me.)

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Lordhammer, on 28 May 2015 - 04:32 AM, said:

For orions, i dont know, havent used them or seen them enough to say anything.

Which is a bit telling as to their quality (nobody really sees a lot of them), but hang on.

Tesunie, on 28 May 2015 - 08:33 AM, said:

I think his point there was that, in comparison, they are the heaviest in their class. This tends to lend them to being better than other mechs of their same class. With the Raven, it's the same tonnage as the Jenner. Now, the Jenner is also a good mech, but when matched up with the Firestarter (same tonnage), the Firestarter is a "better" mech, with maybe the exception to the Raven 3L due to "invisible-can't-get-locks-ECM" being equitable. Then, at 5 tons less, the Spider is considered almost better than the Raven and Jenner as well, or a strong competitor. This is due to the Spider's hit box shapes, speed, jumping ability, and ECM hard point.

Not exactly.

My real point here is twofold.

First of all, that the ferro/endo is not the beall-endall that it's being considered. Is its application or lack thereof without any volition on the pilot's choice a drawback? Certainly. But it's not a drawback to such a degree that alone it explains the difference in predominance. It's definitely the sort of drawback that should be compensated for by the quirk system. This would then allow the maintenance of omnimechs as different but not necessarily better than standard-style battlemechs without having some omnimechs just sort of be bad by comparison.

Second of all, the top tonnage 'mech in a weight class should not be your go-to 'mech in that class for everything, not when you're trying to build a competitive game that has decent internal balance or decent internal equal imbalance. Lighter 'mechs within a weight class should be making up in agility, size, shape, or other benefits what they lack in terms of raw tonnage to the point that they are comparably good in a general sense. If you don't do that, then the game drifts towards the point where you have no reason to include 'mechs that are not 35, 55, 75, or 100 tonnes. It may not ever get to that actual (and somewhat hyperbolic) point, but any drift in that direction is bad for the overall health of the game and the internally competitive environment and should be mitigated if it can't be actually corrected.

The reasons I chose the Orion, Atlas, and Raven specifically is that between their variants and their individually varied hardpoints, you can do a lot of different builds with them. But while you can find Timber Wolves that fulfill nearly all battlefield roles better than any other choice of Clan heavy 'mech, and Stormcrows are so flexible (hah) between their agility and hardpoint selection that they borderline obviate role definition in combat, you can't really find- even in Community Warfare- Atlas that fulfill other roles than 'ECM bringer', 'Low-end missile boat', and 'brawler'. You don't see with any regularity Ravens that aren't trial 'mechs running around with SRMs (excepting the Huginn and its stupid giant SRM-4 quirk) and medium lasers as primary armament, and you just plain don't see Orion worth noticing at all. Jenner are practically gone from the battlefield at this point despite being 35-tonners that can use Endo-Steel and Ferro-Fibrous Armor. And that's because for all those roles that those 'mechs don't fill, other 'mechs- lighter 'mechs- in the same weight classes do better in those other roles.

This isn't happening with the Wolf and the Crow. It's not as egregious with the Wolf, which doesn't outtank its weight class as severely and can still be, for instance, outmaneuvered at all, so the Wolf may not need altering at all (aside from removal of the stupid laser shackles that came in recently) and if it does, it needs only a small downgrade.

The Crow, on the other hand, has so much going for it in terms of tanking via hitboxes/shape/torso twist and the capacity to aim literally anywhere thanks to its huge torso twist range that it's an extreme outlier. Now that the Nova has some very hefty durability quirks and side torso energy mounts those are popping up a little bit more often, but the Stormcrow is outperforming its weight bracket in ways that are unbalancing to the game. Endo-Steel and Ferro-Fibrous and high tonnage help, but the majority of the difficulty lies in its being able to face any direction regardless of which way its feet are pointed, do so very quickly, and survive massive amounts of incoming fire. Something's got to give for the sake of internal balance, and I'd very much like it to be the right thing (again, the laser shackles are bad and a wrong answer).

This is why I'm advocating a reduction in the torso twist range and would not argue with reduction of the Crow's torso yaw speed quirks that are present on nearly all of the torso options for the 'mech- and possibly a look at mucking around the hitboxes a little. Specifically because I want to Crow to still be a decent option, I just don't want it to be shoulders (not head and shoulders because it keeps its head down around navel level) above the other choices.

[happy mech]

i will use italic to keep it not spread too much

Quickdraw Crobat, on 27 May 2015 - 03:46 PM, said:

So you'd contest that the Cataphract and Grasshopper are not at all comparable (Edit: I'm speaking in terms of value to team, not method of function or specific purpose.) to an Orion, nor should they be?
ctf or ghr with full jjs and no endo are not comparable to orion

Omnimechs do already have an advantage, and that's my point. In exchange for the advantage of getting to shuffle hardpoints, they get the disadvantage of not being able to shuffle upgrades (aside from Artemis Guidance). Quirks can be used to balance things out across chassis despite the uneven application of endo, ferro, and certain locked equipment, but if you just flat out unlock the equipment, you're giving the omnimechs something (hardpoint swapping) for nothing, which is not a way to create balance and/or equal imbalance. I'm hoping we can lean in favor of keeping the omni technology an exchange (advantage/disadvantage) rather than just a decision that one side can be better (advantage, no disadvantage).
inability to unequip endo or ff is not a disadvantage on the tbr, and with custom amount of jjs it is even more ridiculous
timberwolf already got the best it can get
you need to make clans equal, then you can balance them towards IS

The quirk system was explicitly put in to bring up underperforming 'mechs. The entire methodology of applying them was intended to alleviate severe disparity between the overall quality of 'mechs in the same weight class, which is why (for instance) the Cataphract 3D, Ember, and Victors simply didn't get much or even anything in the way of quirks at first and still have very short lists of relatively low-impact quirks.
quirks should not be used to make a direwolf out of a 60 ton mech, they are great to give incentive to keep more variants, but they cannot be used to patch a broken system (weapons, lock, heat)

The Summoner should absolutely be comparable to a Timber Wolf, particularly considering that if you take the torso sections for jump jets on a Timber Wolf, you're investing the exact same five tonne amount into jump jets that you are forced to with the Summoner!
except that summoner does not have endo and cannot get 5 secondary clan medium lasers with that setup

That is not the entirety of their strengths, which is the entire point of my analyzing the 'mechs to begin with.
try to design a summoner or a nova with 7+ more tons

Sure, but adding backup weapons isn't really that big of an impact to be worried about- particularly since the nerfhammer lowered on the Crow and Wolf is clearly intended to penalize the player more for bringing more energy hardpoints. This is the kind of nerf you do to specifically reduce laser boating, which is not and was never the primary thing making those two 'mechs more attractive than the rest of the Clan stable.
energy boating is easy because of high heat cap, and many energy hardpoints make medium laser great to use this heat cap to add to your damage at most of the range, if not making it your main weapon



I misspoke myself a bit here. Let me put it this way- Clan 'mechs are notorious for generating high heat when you use the available equipment tonnage for energy weapons especially, but also just generally for weapons without considerable additional heat sink investment. This makes the one tonne one CHS reduction in expense of the C-ERPPC relatively a minor thing, particularly given that we're working with hardpoint limitations that by design reduce the value of that one tonne and one CHS.

If the C-ERPPC still dealt all 15 damage to a single component, that has a lot of potential to become broken because then it's lighter, smaller, longer-ranged and more powerful at pinpoint damage than the Inner Sphere ERPPC. With that damage dispersal, though, the issue is significantly mitigated, as it still only does 10 damage to the targeted location, making the extra 5 damage dealt more a convenience and less a straight upgrade in power.
i do not understand you advocating this, same heat but more damage, less weight, less slots



This seems relatively reasonable. I'd like to see this tested.

No argument there. I don't understand why Clan SRMs and SSRMs have no drawback to pay off their tonnage difference, but that's a cross-technology issue and most of what I'm trying to tackle here is the disparity within Clan 'mechs.

Edit: Having checked Smurfy's, I see that C-SRMs have a lower DPS (slightly) than IS SRMs despite having the same refire rate and heat generation. Can someone verify that C-SRMs have lower damage per missile or not, or some other mitigating factor? Regardless, I don't believe the difference (a whole .05 dps per missile) is significant enough to account for half-weight, but it's an interesting point.


I'm not sure about stacking all of those at once. I'd be down for looking at cooldown and heat generation alterations, but I'm not sure I'd be willing to back ripple fire SRMs. That would feel too much like copying the current Clan AC implementation, and would potentially mitigate the damage spread effect that already exists to help keep SRMs from getting out of hand- certainly not as badly as making them a single missile ala MWO Inner Sphere AC's, but enough that I'd be concerned about it.
main issue is the high alpha, so i would make them fire like lrms (may be faster)
clans already have faster and more survivable mechs (xl) with more weapons, the alpha needs to be in control



On the one hand I understand why this was done (canon!), on the other hand, I have experienced for myself why this isn't quite right. Perhaps some alternative could be sought (reduced damage beyond 270, explained as including unspent fuel as part of the explosive payload? I'm guessing here, don't quote me on this idea.) I don't think it's a huge deal, though, and I think we could get away with nothing being done on this.
fantasy in book
balance in game


Both the Timber Wolf and Storm Crow have tonnes invested in extra heat sinks, so I'm not sure what you're suggesting exactly here, but yes, I do play many 'mechs without endo steel that others would put endo steel on, and I play 'mechs with endo steel or even endo-ferro combinations where others wouldn't. It depends on the specific build I'm trying to make.
sorry, scr and nova would have been a better example (12 more tons for a ballistic nova), but engine heatsinks could be removed too to make some interesting builds (though they are common for the smn and tbr in this example) like the gargoyle (12 more tons with endo and ff)



No, I think the Stormcrow is survivable because I regularly see it survive in firefights that can and do bring down other 'mechs of comparable and higher weight in shorter periods of time. Many of these 'mechs that I see not surviving the same situations are driven by a wide variety of pilots who are not me.

If I thought that just because I die in it faster makes it less survivable and because I die in it slower makes it more survivable, I would be ranting all over the forums about how the Shadow Hawk needs to be tankier and the Cataphract 1X is a premier Inner Sphere damage sponge. I would be complaining that the Stalker can't survive a firefight and raving about how amazing the Awesome is as a team tank. I'm not, so clearly I don't.
that is true, but still i would not touch it until stuff is unlocked and other clan mechs can show what they can do and which clan weapons are really overpowered



Me neither. That doesn't change the fact that quirks can change the validity of a given 'mech, as demonstrated by the change in fortunes between the Thud and Awesome on the ERPPC front. The point is not that huge quirks are good (PROTIP: they aren't), it's that applying quirks can make 'mechs and builds more and less feasible to use compared to one another, which is exactly what they're supposed to do and should be used to do.

I have no idea what you're talking about with the 'external heatsinks' thing, but this is a perfect example- Awesomes were underperforming compared to other Assault 'mechs of all tonnages, thus quirks were used to bring their overall quality more in line.
heatsinks out of the 10 that come with engine give only 1.4 dissipation compared to 2.0 of the engine hs
awesomes depend on many external heatsinks, thus they suck because the heat system is bad