79 replies to this topic

[Templar Dane]

Void Angel, on 26 May 2015 - 09:04 PM, said:

I just bought my first Timber Wolf prior to the nerf - and finished them and my Stormcrows (sans one) during the sale. I'm still leveling them up, but they're very strong machines from the standpoint of picking them up, even with laser builds. I can only imagine how powerful and easy to use they'd have been for me prior to the nerf; I suspect the contrast from what they were before is warping people's perceptions - although ER Larges are just too long a burn considering the range available to other weapons/chassis on the field.

Yeah, they're strong compared to the rest of the clan mechs...of which most are bad.

[masCh]

My impression of PGI is : They know how to make absolutely beautiful playing cards, but they are not very good at making a game out of them. They do not know how to plan a poker game, a blackjack game or a co daai di 大老二 game.

What they do with their fantasticly created playing cards is follow what every other game studio does with cards - they make them into baseball trading cards.

[Rebas Kradd]

Team Chevy86, on 26 May 2015 - 04:25 PM, said:

Aaaaand this is why Russ prefers Twitter. There is not a fine line between sounding like a sarcastic dirtbag and offering something constructive

Well, the particular individual to whom you're responding is part of the goonsquad. He's not actually trying to contribute to the discussion, constructively or otherwise.

However, it's no excuse for PGI sticking to Twitter. If they advertise the game forums, they need to use the game forums. It's part of community management to develop a thick skin and commit to these conversations; I know it's not pleasant, but it's better than limiting yourself to 140 characters and screening out loads of people who can't use Twitter effectively.

Edited by Rebas Kradd, 27 May 2015 - 09:27 AM.

[Void Angel]

This is why you lose arguments so much, lordtzar.

Edited by Void Angel, 27 May 2015 - 03:53 PM.

[GeistHrafn]

We've all seen (and in many cases asked ourselves), "Hey PGI, when are you going to see (insert mech name here) put into the game?" I think they've done a bang up job of doing just that.
CW today, in Beta 2, IMHO is a huge improvement on Beta 1. I really didn't enjoy Beta 1 myself, but have been putting some serious time into Beta 2, and intend to continue. Is it a relatively slow pace, yes. But they are working at it. It hasn't stagnated.
Did this cause other things to lose priority? Of course it did! However, the new UI looks fantastic, smoother, and most importantly, will make huge inroads to keeping new players from feeling overwhelmed, growing the base, the game, and as a side-effect, most likely speeding up development in the future. Map overhauls are also incoming, contributing again to playability, retention, etc., as well as new maps (even if they are CW maps redone for solo queue).
New game modes should definitely be on their list, and I am under the impression that is something they will address as soon as the priority can shift.

Now, with MW4, could you reach out to Microsloth and tell them what you thought should/shouldn't be in the game, what needed to be changed? Probably you could. Would the Lead Game Designer personally respond to you, debate the merits of your ideas or address them at all? HELL NO!! (And i don't care whether it's on the forums or on twitter, fact is PGI is listening to us). Can they implement everything that everyone wants when they want it? Of-bloody-course-not. You'd have to have one hell of an inflated ego to think otherwise...

Bottom line for me (at least), is that they are trying to balance (insert quirkening/nerfhammer joke here) what everyone wants, from FPS players to TT lore-heads. I think they get far too little credit for it all. They started with a grand idea and did their best, despite many hurdles, to implement it, and are continuing to do so. Despite any shortcomings, fact is there are thousands of players that keep coming back to the game, regardless of them.

o7 PGI, whether anyone else feels like me or not. I am grateful to have a MW universe based game to play at all. The fun i have stomping across the wastelands with my friends are more than worth any perceived shortcomings.

Edited by Rhazien, 27 May 2015 - 03:07 PM.

[Void Angel]

Nice left-handed salute.

[GeistHrafn]

Void Angel, on 27 May 2015 - 03:54 PM, said:

Nice left-handed salute.

Yea...i've always been a little backwards lol.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Rebas Kradd, on 27 May 2015 - 06:18 AM, said:

Well, the particular individual to whom you're responding is part of the goonsquad.

Word of Lowtax you mean. Its in EVE theyre called that

[Sergeant Random]

If you do look at the old interviews and blurbs you could see that there is good design space that can be explored. And the devs did want to explore them given the practicality of available resources. And there is the catch: is there enough cash left over from daily operations to invest in deeper game systems? Can the current game engine and network hardware handle the additional load? And will it improve the bottom line by improving cash flow or player retention?

Way I see it, PGI is designing for 2 markets. The FPS crowd and the TT crowd. The TT crowd will be content with collecting and playing - and they love the art. While the FPS crowd will be all about the meta - the FPS crowd doesn't need all the mechs and will keep playing their favored chassis. Here it makes sense that the TBRs and SCRs were nerfed - to make the competitive FPS folk try different stuff.

So maybe MWO is still trying to balance its core game - though I admit I dont know how much testing should be required for that - 5 years? But in PGIs defense, they are juggling that with keeping the servers running.

[Void Angel]

Er, have you seen the posts from self-identified tabletop players, who "love BattleTech," and use that in an attempt to claim authority on everything from convergence, to weapon stats, to the Heat Scale system? Many of the posters who consider themselves Battletech players first are irrationally hostile to anything they don't want - or to not getting something they do want, like Clan supertechnology. Many of the professional trolls who come to the forums (some of whom do not even play the game) spouting condescending nonsense self-identify as being from this camp - so they're not just happy with the art, even though they are the ones most likely to pee themselves the first time they see a screenshot of the Mauler. =)

And on the other hand, I'm a die-hard Battletech/Mechwarrior fan. I'm short one supplement (Battlespace) to simulate a full-scale planetary invasion campaign, from Jumpship insertion to the last 'Mech standing - with double-blind rules. I've got a couple of editions of the MechWarrior RPG; heck, I've even played the Crescent Hawks games. And I don't care that art and 'mech models are nifty if the gameplay isn't there.

Whether or not it's useful to sub-divide the market for MWO, I don't know. But no matter how you slice it, the game has to deliver on the FPS elements that are the actual game, and that's what the devs are trying to do. There've been a lot of setbacks on that road, and while things are looking up, we're still a little leery about the future - there's still a ways to go. The important thing to remember is that there will always be irrationally angry jackasses on the internet. During the height of the Burning Crusade - possibly the best expansion ever for World of Warcraft - there were people on the forums screaming vitriol and predicting that the sky was falling. Those same people (demographically) are here, wailing to the heavens - don't give them more credibility than they deserve. Even if their predictions come true, it won't be for the reasons they espouse.

Finally, we really don't know how much of PGI's income goes where - they don't tell us that, and I wouldn't either. No game I've ever played really has - but I'll lay money that development costs more than the armchair programmers and professionally dissatisfied think. At the end of the day, however, they (and we) need to remember that if the game's not fun, it's never too late to go away and stop playing.

=)

Edited by Void Angel, 27 May 2015 - 05:50 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Sergeant Random, on 27 May 2015 - 04:52 PM, said:

If you do look at the old interviews and blurbs you could see that there WAS good design space that can be explored.

Things seem to have changed given the game now vs the ideas of the past



http://mwomercs.com/...-developer-qa-1
http://mwomercs.com/...-developer-qa-2
http://mwomercs.com/...ey-bryan-ekman/

Quote

MWO: What do you personally add to MechWarrior Online development?



[DAVID] An eye for detail and the ability to quickly learn and assimilate the lore of a fictional universe and its game mechanics. I get to make sure that everything we include in MechWarrior Online matches, at the very least, the spirit and intent of the BattleTech game and universe.

[PAUL] As mentioned above, experience with the F2P model and a strong background in gameplay balancing.

[BRYAN] I have a few roles, primarily Im what they call the Product Owner and I represent the voice of the customer and make sure everything we make has value for both the end user and business. As a Creative Director, Im responsible for managing the design, art, and level teams. As a partner/owner of PGI, I also get to work closely with Russ on business matters, although he is the main business mastermind.

Where the hell did this David guy go?!

Quote

MWO: How much of the table-top have you played? How do you convert that experience to a digital video game? (or do you at all?)


[DAVID] I first got into BattleTech around age 13 or so, when my older cousin gave me his BattleTech, CityTech, and AeroTech boxed sets along with a bunch of other sourcebooks and miniatures. Unfortunately, I didnt get to play too many games of it back then as my friends werent really into it. Later, when I did have friends into those sorts of things, we played different games instead. Though I do still have some of those books at my desk right now for reference. A few years ago (I refuse to believe its nearly been a decade) I was excited when Wizkids came out with their MechWarrior: Dark Age game and I jumped on it as I was (and still am) a fan of their other games. But that game didnt hold my interest for too long (playing with IndustrialMechs and a mishmash of random infantry didnt make for the best gameplay). And now those miniatures just decorate my desk. For those who are undoubtedly freaking out right now, dont worry, the Dark Age isnt going to have any influence over MechWarrior Online (or at least not for a very very very long time). The last year or so has been a BattleTech renaissance for me. Not only am I working on MWO but Ive been able to play some tabletop games here at work and have been dubbed the office rules guy who has taught and reffed games for the rest of the team. As for converting the tabletop rules into a video game, it can be done but there are several things that need to be kept in mind. The first is to figure out what a specific tabletop component was meant to represent, or how to interpret a tabletop mechanic into a real time game. Attacks in the tabletop game would randomly hit different sections of an enemy Mech; this doesnt need to be recreated in a video game because its fully represented by the skill of the player. Though this change may need to be taken into consideration later as its suddenly a lot easier to hit a Mechs head than it ever was in the tabletop game. Another example would be torso twisting. In the tabletop game its a fairly abstract mechanic that lets you instantly rotate your firing arc a set amount before instantly snapping back, and with no effect on other people shooting you. In a video game, this becomes a lot more complex but still preserves and improves the effect of being able to walk in one direction while you shoot in another. The second consideration is the question, Is it fun in a video game? In the tabletop game, theres what amounts to a random chance that your Mech will fall down and take damage every time it enters water, and every 30 meters it travels through the water. On top of that, every time your Mech has fallen and tries to stand (in the water or not), theres a random chance that it will slip and fall back down again, taking even more damage. This isnt fun for the player, especially since they dont have full control over piloting their Mech in the way a MechWarrior would. And this leads to the third consideration Limitations. While the tabletop game has limitations, a video game also has a set of its own. They generally involve manpower and complexity. Manpower is the most straight forward; our team is only so large and can only work on so much at once so, at the very least, we have to prioritize. Though the beauty of the free-to-play model is that, given enough time, we can overcome this limitation and release a future update. The complexity limit is trickier to overcome. Theres only so much screen space, so theres a limit to what we can show the player at once and still have them understand it quickly. Conversely, unless the player has their own neural helmet (though Ive seen some of the cockpits you guys have built, so it wouldnt surprise me if someone had one), even a joystick/throttle/rudder pedal setup is going to be limited in terms of controls and cant simulate the piloting needed to avoid falling down from entering water. Plus we still have to keep the game playable for those who only have a keyboard and mouse.

[PAUL] To be honest, only a few hours. It was enough to get the intricacies of the play style down while Bryan and Dave cheated me and took out my Hunchback so I rage quit and never played again. It was however an enjoyable time and we made sure everyone on the team experienced it.

[BRYAN] After reading David’s novel, no comment.
or this gem

Quote

[MWO] At this point, how often would you guys like to introduce new content/store items/features/etc. per year?



[PAUL] A bi-weekly release schedule would be ideal. Ive played numerous on-line games where content stagnated and it became very frustrating waiting for promised items and not having them show up. Well be working with our art team and content teams to make sure we get items and maps out in a timely manner. Content is the longest game development process so well be working diligently to get you the stuff as soon as possible.

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 27 May 2015 - 05:54 PM.

[therealswilly]

Rhazien, on 27 May 2015 - 03:06 PM, said:

We've all seen (and in many cases asked ourselves), "Hey PGI, when are you going to see (insert mech name here) put into the game?" I think they've done a bang up job of doing just that.
CW today, in Beta 2, IMHO is a huge improvement on Beta 1. I really didn't enjoy Beta 1 myself, but have been putting some serious time into Beta 2, and intend to continue. Is it a relatively slow pace, yes. But they are working at it. It hasn't stagnated.
Did this cause other things to lose priority? Of course it did! However, the new UI looks fantastic, smoother, and most importantly, will make huge inroads to keeping new players from feeling overwhelmed, growing the base, the game, and as a side-effect, most likely speeding up development in the future. Map overhauls are also incoming, contributing again to playability, retention, etc., as well as new maps (even if they are CW maps redone for solo queue).
New game modes should definitely be on their list, and I am under the impression that is something they will address as soon as the priority can shift.

Now, with MW4, could you reach out to Microsloth and tell them what you thought should/shouldn't be in the game, what needed to be changed? Probably you could. Would the Lead Game Designer personally respond to you, debate the merits of your ideas or address them at all? HELL NO!! (And i don't care whether it's on the forums or on twitter, fact is PGI is listening to us). Can they implement everything that everyone wants when they want it? Of-bloody-course-not. You'd have to have one hell of an inflated ego to think otherwise...

Bottom line for me (at least), is that they are trying to balance (insert quirkening/nerfhammer joke here) what everyone wants, from FPS players to TT lore-heads. I think they get far too little credit for it all. They started with a grand idea and did their best, despite many hurdles, to implement it, and are continuing to do so. Despite any shortcomings, fact is there are thousands of players that keep coming back to the game, regardless of them.

o7 PGI, whether anyone else feels like me or not. I am grateful to have a MW universe based game to play at all. The fun i have stomping across the wastelands with my friends are more than worth any perceived shortcomings.

I feel like they're trying to hard to please both the Tabletop and the Mechwarrior fans. I've done that before when it comes to dealing with people's preconceptions.

I feel like they've bit off more than they can chew due to enthusiasm and then it doesn't help when you have players like Mechwarrior Buddah who sing the praises of a mod that re-used and hobbled together a ton of assets and put a flash coat of paint on it(And I know this because I actually known one of the modders, he's a user in Facepunch).

Also, this game, if they had not gone to F2P. Would be in development hell, and Living Legends, instead of shutting down with a final patch that tidies up a bunch of things, would've been slapped with a C&D.

[Burktross]

Flash Frame, on 26 May 2015 - 08:50 PM, said:

Nope. That's not Battletech/Mechwarrior.

You're essentially saying "Battlefield mechs work this way, so should Battletech mechs." Sorry but we've had "Gold standards" for what Mechwarrior mechs should move and sound like from Mechwarriors 2-4.

BBBBUT THERES SO MUCH HEADBOB!!!!

[therealswilly]

Burktross, on 27 May 2015 - 07:26 PM, said:

BBBBUT THERES SO MUCH HEADBOB!!!!

Doesn't the whole mech bob in MWO, instead of just the head?

[Burktross]

therealswilly, on 27 May 2015 - 07:28 PM, said:

Doesn't the whole mech bob in MWO, instead of just the head?

No. ONLY the mech bobs. The player remains a floating anti gravity eye.

[stjobe]

Quote

MWO: How much of the table-top have you played?
[PAUL] To be honest, only a few hours.

And that's the guy they put in charge of balancing their "BattleTech Game"... :/

Edited by stjobe, 28 May 2015 - 08:54 AM.

[Burktross]

stjobe, on 28 May 2015 - 08:53 AM, said:

And that's the guy they put in charge of balancing their "BattleTech Game"... :/

You telling me I've played more in my first year than paul has ever?

[Summon3r]

MechaBattler, on 26 May 2015 - 07:57 AM, said:

They built the game up piece by piece. And I think they felt it was built up enough to work on CW. And that took a lot of time. And since it was fairly bare bones. They've been trying to flush it out with more maps and basic features. And now they've shifted to work on the new mechlab UI. So they've always had this level of pace when it comes to feature and UI improvements.

LOL, yea and epic work they do on their maps and the environment... i wonder if any of pgi has dropped into something like war thunder? i doubt it though as it would be utterly embarrassing for them! i mean what 15+ players a side planes flying around buildings exploding vehicles exploding terrain burning up and on and on oh and all at movie quality settings for 80+ fps.....

then there is the pgi maps ill leave that at just lol.

[Scyther]

Agree that the current feel is a "we have a good mech-design shop and so we are packaging and selling mechs as fast as we can. Oh and in between mech designs, we fiddle with this 'combat' thing you all seem so hung up on. Guess those mechs need something to do."

PGI really needs to shift from mech-packaging to 'Battletech Universe game designers' again (where they probably started out at some point).

The key elements that seem to be missing are the NPE/intro/immersion factor, the 'meaningful progression that isn't just grind', the 'make CW something other than a mixed solo/team queue with loyalty rewards', and finally, the whole aspect of understanding gamer psychology and tuning MWO to something other than mecha-combat fans.

[Johnny Z]

MadBadger, on 28 May 2015 - 12:41 PM, said:

Agree that the current feel is a "we have a good mech-design shop and so we are packaging and selling mechs as fast as we can. Oh and in between mech designs, we fiddle with this 'combat' thing you all seem so hung up on. Guess those mechs need something to do."

PGI really needs to shift from mech-packaging to 'Battletech Universe game designers' again (where they probably started out at some point).

The key elements that seem to be missing are the NPE/intro/immersion factor, the 'meaningful progression that isn't just grind', the 'make CW something other than a mixed solo/team queue with loyalty rewards', and finally, the whole aspect of understanding gamer psychology and tuning MWO to something other than mecha-combat fans.

+1 but I think they are going to do this. Some day.