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Why Is The Doomcrow Still More Agile Than Clam Lights?

Balance BattleMechs

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#1 Mcgral18

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 01:53 PM

After nearly a year, the DoomCrow is still significantly more agile than nearly every Clam light; the only exception being the Myth Lynx at less than half the tonnage.

The Cute Fox and Badder cannot match the impressive 156 degree twist angle the Crow has, unquirked. The Badder A, using CT quirks, can match the Crow with 158.4 degrees, with the Prime being at 144 and the D 151.2.

Cute Fox, if you sacrifice the S-STs can reach 154.8, using maximum quirks. The non Primes are closer to 145.


Twist speed is 198 Deg/s for the DoomCrow, using the 15%CT bonus, and +10% Prime-LT bonus.

That's right, +25% bonus to torso twist on a God Tier robot.

Badder D-CT has a 20% bonus, which brings it to 192 Deg/s. The other Badders are not as fortunate. The A can have 180 Deg/s and the Prime 168 Deg/s.

The Cute Fox Prime (10%) can reach 192 Deg/s as well, having a max of 20% torso twist quirks.
The other two foxes are capped at 186 and 180 (having no CT quirk, only the 10% between STs).

For reference, unquirked (using the Myth Lynx B CT, and using armour quirked STs) the Myth Lynx gets 196 Deg/s. Less than the DoomCrow.

The Prime, however, gets a nice 10% boost on the CT(You know, less than the DoomCrow). Add the Prime STs to that(5% each), and the maximum is 224 Deg/s. Notably better than the robot 30 tons heavier than it.
The sad realization? When you take the torso twist speed, you need to sacrifice the torso yaw distance. So, while that Myth Lynx twists faster, it only has a twist distance of 150 degrees, smaller than 156. On the Prime chassis, at least. Even with the quirked STs, it only totals a few extra %, to 154.8. The C-CT has greater torso yaw, but I've sold it and don't want to Maths.


The DoomCrow isn't chassis quirk dependant; every CT has a 15% bonus, every Prime LT has a 10% bonus, or 5% for the C if you want another E hardpoint.


The Crow gets better hardpoint placement, more hardpoints, more tonnage, more armour, as well as having, on average, greater agility than EVERY Clam light in some cases, with some exceptions on the Myth Lynx, at 25 tons.


I know this might be crazy talk...but I feel a 55 ton robot should not be more agile than 25, 30 and 35 ton robots.

I feel God Tier robots shouldn't get 25% positive quirks.

I feel they shouldn't have one of the best torso yaw angles in the game, unquirked.



Perhaps remove that 25% positive quirk (15% on each chassis, 5% and 10% available LT), cut the torso yaw angle to something more appropriate (~100 Degrees).

The BJ1x is a good comparison. It's a Med mech that can travel 100 Kph with 8 hardpoints, as such it has a torso yaw angle of 96 Degrees, and torso yaw speed of 216 Deg/s(thank goodness it also has a 25% buff)

The Crow is a bit of an outlier, being a Med mech that travels over 100 Kph with up to 12 hardpoints (with 25% Yaw speed quirks), with 156 degrees of torso yaw, and 198 Deg/s torso yaw speed.


Or, I suppose in PGI fashion, we could keep that 25% buff, and instead give it 50% nerfs to balance them out.

Naturally, this would replace the laser nerf, starting from a fresh, empty, quirk list.


Anyhow, perhaps make the 55 tonner less agile than the 25, 30 and 35 tonners? Just a suggestion.

Edited by Mcgral18, 27 May 2015 - 10:52 AM.


#2 Xetelian

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 01:59 PM

NERF IT!


NERF IT TO THE GROUND!

On a more serious note you're probably right.

#3 Deathlike

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 02:04 PM

The answer:

Because PGI.

:P


Still, you would think the proper counter reaction to that info is that the Stormcrow reduces its torso twist buff or having it removed altogether... or that the Kitfox+Adder would have their torso twist increased to that level naturally.

It must be that the Kitfox+Adder meta has supplanted the Doomcrows. Amirite?

The Mist Lynx doesn't quite need the torso twist boost (although, +5% Speed Tweak would be nice), but I don't think we're allowed to have nice Clan Lights unless they are immediately obsoleted by the Arctic Cheetah.

#4 Kristov Kerensky

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 02:09 PM

Lowering the agility of the SCrow, and the Timby, was what I suggested was the proper balance move to deal with the OPness of those 2 Mechs.

It's not their weapons, it's not their top speed, it's how AGILE they are, which combined with their weapons and speed is just too much. They are Clan OmniMechs, they are SUPPOSED to hit at least 1 Class higher than they are. They are NOT supposed to be as agile as a Mech 1 or even 2 Classes lower. The 2 things combined are what make them OP. Weapons are fine, Clan are SUPPOSED to hit harder, so knock that agility down, remove those silly laser nerfs, and see what happens...

#5 Insects

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 02:27 PM

It was weird that the torso twist wasn't removed before atomic-nerfing the lasers with negatives.

I guess just knee jerk reacting to all the whining about "laser vomit ate my baby", even though it was the wrong thing to attack.

#6 Deathlike

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 02:29 PM

I think I'll eventually have to admit to a deep dark secret...

IIRC I wrote about nerfs through duration... I believe it was written when I wrote about the Timberwolf.

The idea behind that was that it would indirectly reduce TTK for the Timberwolf through more facetime.

However, I believe I didn't write it to support the move, but rather as a LAST RESORT for balance.

I don't recall writing such a thing for the Stormcrow... as I'll repeat that I've advocated for Torso Twist nerfs (either radius or speed or both).

So... in advance of all the potential flaming...

I'M SORRY.

:(

#7 1453 R

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 02:31 PM

D'ye think the answer might not be supah-drastic 30+-degree arc cuts on the SCR, McGral?

Because while you have a very good point concerning the comparative torso mobility of the SCR as compared to the Clan gunboat lights, my thought is more "let's cut the SCR's twist arcs by somewhere in the 10-15 range, or 10-20 if we're really feeling froggy, and also let's bake some extra torso mobility into the light 'Mechs relegated to groob tier by their utter lack of foot mobility."

I.e. buff up the twist arcs/speeds of the Sadder and Cute Fox while adjusting the SCR's torso agility down some, rather than flaming hemorrhoidal buttmurder the SCR's torso mobility down to BLR-1G levels and leave the Sadder and Cute Fox with their existing level of sadness.

#8 bad arcade kitty

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 02:45 PM

i really don't like this line of thought - one clan mech performs better than another - nerf it, don't buff that another

#9 nehebkau

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 02:50 PM

@OP

IMHO, clan lights need a slight boost to their movement.

#10 Nikohki

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 03:11 PM

IMHO, I think they should make the sub-par mechs better to become more inclusive, and increase playerbase instead of nerfing the better performing ones and alienating existing players... But what do I know? :rolleyes:

#11 Gas Guzzler

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 03:15 PM

Probably stems from long standing complaints of how Mediums have no role as they are slower and less agile than lights don't hit as hard as their heavier brethren. In other words, all mediums in the past have been "useless". Most 55 ton mediums on both sides (Clan and IS) have some significant twist buffs don't they?

#12 Johny Rocket

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 03:16 PM

What are Clam Lights?

#13 R0B0TULISM

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 03:17 PM

A lot of the more reasonable people here suggested targeted torso twist range/speed nerfs, but instead we got the laser nerfs... because pgi. The heat I can deal with, but the extra burn time just makes me a sad panda. Despite my sadness however, the mobility of the SCR continues to allow me to do nearly the same amount of damage, even with lasers (I guess my play was already conservative, with a lot of peeking and hiding so the dps drop didnt hurt that much), while still using the sick torso twist range/speed to spread damage like a boss.

TL;DR, the laser nerfs are an annoyance, and a step in the wrong direction for balance, but that said, the SCR still has the mobility of a light while being able to tank like a mech 25-30 tons heavier.

#14 Aresye

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 03:23 PM

View PostTractor Joe, on 26 May 2015 - 03:16 PM, said:

What are Clam Lights?


A mythical creature.

We only have Mini-Fridges, Mini-Me's, and Suck.

Heard we're supposed to get our first Clan Light soon though.

Edited by Aresye Kerensky, 26 May 2015 - 03:24 PM.


#15 keith

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 03:23 PM

i'm not really up to date on current meta. do own my lovely ryo, but i'll add this tid bit i remember. wasn't the cata torso twist range nerfed because it could run and gun so well? i do feel the clan weps are decently balanced. do feel they could be a bit tweaked but meh its pgi. both ryo and mad cat have good hit boxes, good speed and can hold good amount of weps. ie they should turn a bit slow and not as far

#16 Mcgral18

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 03:25 PM

View Post1453 R, on 26 May 2015 - 02:31 PM, said:

D'ye think the answer might not be supah-drastic 30+-degree arc cuts on the SCR, McGral?

Because while you have a very good point concerning the comparative torso mobility of the SCR as compared to the Clan gunboat lights, my thought is more "let's cut the SCR's twist arcs by somewhere in the 10-15 range, or 10-20 if we're really feeling froggy, and also let's bake some extra torso mobility into the light 'Mechs relegated to groob tier by their utter lack of foot mobility."

I.e. buff up the twist arcs/speeds of the Sadder and Cute Fox while adjusting the SCR's torso agility down some, rather than flaming hemorrhoidal buttmurder the SCR's torso mobility down to BLR-1G levels and leave the Sadder and Cute Fox with their existing level of sadness.


It's not just those lights; it's the BJs, SHDs, and other Meds with similar roles. This mech outdoes the Lights at their respective roles.


It is the most Gun-boaty Clam Med presently in the game, and for months to come. One day that won't hold true, but it will be awhile for that.

View PostNikohki, on 26 May 2015 - 03:11 PM, said:

IMHO, I think they should make the sub-par mechs better to become more inclusive, and increase playerbase instead of nerfing the better performing ones and alienating existing players... But what do I know? :rolleyes:


So, buff every Med and all Clam lights and Meds? Or change the over-performer?

One seems like a lot more work than the other.

#17 1453 R

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 04:06 PM

View PostMcgral18, on 26 May 2015 - 03:25 PM, said:


It's not just those lights; it's the BJs, SHDs, and other Meds with similar roles. This mech outdoes the Lights at their respective roles.


It is the most Gun-boaty Clam Med presently in the game, and for months to come. One day that won't hold true, but it will be awhile for that.



So, buff every Med and all Clam lights and Meds? Or change the over-performer?

One seems like a lot more work than the other.


You honestly figure that cutting the SCR to sub-90 twist arcs is warranted? Because I don't; I really don't.

Eliminate its twist speed bonuses, by all means. It pays for a 330XL and should derive all due benefit from that engine, but it doesn't need more benefit on top of that. Trim its twist arcs - it doesn't need a base arc of 130, though frankly that doesn't seem like a bad place for it to end up around with double basics.

But for a 'Mech to deserve a sub-90 arc, it needs to be truly busted in other areas to compensate for that absolutely suffocating lack of agility. The Blackjack-1X you mention is difficult to make effective use out of specifically because of its limited twist range. The Stalker and the Dire Whale both carry absolutely stupendous forward firepower that necessitates limiting their agility via shortened twist arcs, but those are edge cases which have countervailing strengths to make up for their shortened twist arcs (super-high sniper hardpoints and huge firepower levels for the Stalker, crap-bricks-from-your-ears levels of firepower for the Whale).

Yeah, the Stormcrow can carry stupidly high numbers of energy weapons - except it doesn't do that. The average SCR configuration, energy or missile, hovers between 5 and 7 weapons, especially now that using either of those hardpoint-glut arms incurs a massive penalty to all equipped energy weapons. That's not that much more gunboaty than the Ice Ferret, now that we have a 2E pod for either arm. Should we cut the Ferret's arcs by 40+ degrees as well?

No worthwhile build on the Stormcrow, especially post-Beamurder, uses anything bigger than the 2E arms. It has an absolute maximum of two sniper-level hardpoints, 1E per shoulder - and people generally agree that the BLR-1G, with its six sniper-level energy hardpoints and far more equipment weight to carry sniper energy with, didn't deserve the 60-degree arcs it was saddled with.

I know the SCR is a problem in CW, and I know that the primary culprit for that is its sweet-spot drop deck weight and its ability to carry a raging butt-ton of SRMs with which to run with eleven other SRM Crows in horrifying objective rushes unusually excellent torso mobility for a 'gunboaty' 'Mech. I agree that the thing's twist arcs need trimming and that it doesn't really need twist speed bonuses, but there's a difference between 'trimming' and 40+-degree crazed machete-surgeries, man...

#18 Ultimax

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 04:13 PM

View PostDeathlike, on 26 May 2015 - 02:29 PM, said:

I think I'll eventually have to admit to a deep dark secret...

IIRC I wrote about nerfs through duration... I believe it was written when I wrote about the Timberwolf.

The idea behind that was that it would indirectly reduce TTK for the Timberwolf through more facetime.

However, I believe I didn't write it to support the move, but rather as a LAST RESORT for balance.

I don't recall writing such a thing for the Stormcrow... as I'll repeat that I've advocated for Torso Twist nerfs (either radius or speed or both).

So... in advance of all the potential flaming...

I'M SORRY.

:(




Posted Image

#19 Mcgral18

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 04:15 PM

View Post1453 R, on 26 May 2015 - 04:06 PM, said:

You honestly figure that cutting the SCR to sub-90 twist arcs is warranted? Because I don't; I really don't.


Sub-90? Without doubled basics, yes.

Doubled? No.


Need I remind you the Shadowhawk is at 108 degrees? Not 130. Not 150. Under 110. For a (previously) top tier 55 ton Medium that jumps.


~100 degrees seems reasonable.

#20 Impossible Wasabi

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Posted 26 May 2015 - 04:20 PM

Reasonable idea, like others have said what made the Timberwolf and Stormcrow so broken was ridiculously good agility and hitboxes, not necessarily their weapons or amount of armor.

It does also certainly seem more than a bit silly when a 55 ton mech is pretty much a better light mech than almost all light mechs in the game.

Edited by The True Space Pope, 26 May 2015 - 04:21 PM.






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