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In The Wake Of The Cataphract Mania...

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#1 Duke Nedo

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 12:23 AM

I'd just like to point out that after playing the new CTF-0XP and finding it actually very viable it's rather clear what level of quirks are needed to get the other Phracts up to standards.

The CTF-0XP most importantly has 1.5t of extra armor (54p) + 26p structure + some 5% buffs + ECM!

Ordinary Phracts have similar structure, 24p, and the 1X, 2X have rather good quirks in general, but they all lack the durability to compensate for over all low slung hardpoints (-2E shoulder hardpoints).

Conclusion:
  • All CTFs need similar armor quirks
  • The CTF-1X and 2X will be fine with this
  • The CTF-4X needs better ballistics quirks. All HPs are low slung and it's incredibly slow. This variant is in a really bad place.
  • The CTF-3D could use better quirks too, it's not a jump sniper anymore... make it the Gauss phract?
EDIT: Just to underline the main point - the new -0XP really has shown that, at least to me, Cataphract brawling is alive with those armor quirks+ECM. If other Phracts could get the same treatment but with slightly better quirks to compensate for ECM they could also become equally viable.

I have tried my -0XP build minus ecm on my -3D and you can really feel the difference of those extra 1.5 tons of armor.

Edited by Duke Nedo, 27 May 2015 - 03:18 AM.


#2 Satan n stuff

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 01:14 AM

View PostDuke Nedo, on 27 May 2015 - 12:23 AM, said:

I'd just like to point out that after playing the new CTF-0XP and finding it actually very viable it's rather clear what level of quirks are needed to get the other Phracts up to standards.

The CTF-0XP most importantly has 1.5t of extra armor (54p) + 26p structure + some 5% buffs + ECM!

Ordinary Phracts have similar structure, 24p, and the 1X, 2X have rather good quirks in general, but they all lack the durability to compensate for over all low slung hardpoints (-2E shoulder hardpoints).

Conclusion:
  • All CTFs need similar armor quirks
  • The CTF-1X and 2X will be fine with this
  • The CTF-4X needs better ballistics quirks. All HPs are low slung and it's incredibly slow. This variant is in a really bad place.
  • The CTF-3D could use better quirks too, it's not a jump sniper anymore... make it the Gauss phract?


The 3D can still jump snipe just fine, it just can't do it all the time because of the slow jump jet recharge.

#3 Duke Nedo

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 01:26 AM

View PostSatan n stuff, on 27 May 2015 - 01:14 AM, said:


The 3D can still jump snipe just fine, it just can't do it all the time because of the slow jump jet recharge.


All the power to you if you do that efficiently... may I ask which build you use? Are you more efficient in a CTF-3D jump sniper than for example in a CTF-1X brawler?

#4 Star Colonel Silver Surat

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 01:27 AM

CTF-4X doesn't need any more ballistic buffs. Perhaps a small acceleration boost or something.

But honestly, how did we come to a point in this game where people are saying Cataphracts of all mechs need to be BUFFED?? It just goes to show the silly power creep which has set in since the Clans arrived.

#5 Satan n stuff

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 01:50 AM

View PostDuke Nedo, on 27 May 2015 - 01:26 AM, said:


All the power to you if you do that efficiently... may I ask which build you use? Are you more efficient in a CTF-3D jump sniper than for example in a CTF-1X brawler?

Yes definitely, I use double PPC + AC/10 with a 300 XL engine and 4 jump jets, endo steel, full armor, 3.5 tons of ammo and 14 double heat sinks. The exact layout would depend on personal preference, I myself have the AC/10 in the right arm and the PPCs on the left side. I have run out of ammo on occasion in CW, but by then I've usually dealt well over 1000 damage with just that one mech. In a regular match it's more than enough ammo.

#6 Duke Nedo

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 03:10 AM

View PostStar Colonel Silver Surat, on 27 May 2015 - 01:27 AM, said:

CTF-4X doesn't need any more ballistic buffs. Perhaps a small acceleration boost or something.

But honestly, how did we come to a point in this game where people are saying Cataphracts of all mechs need to be BUFFED?? It just goes to show the silly power creep which has set in since the Clans arrived.


But it does! ^^ Two can play that game. :) Seriously, the 4X is horrible. Assault weaponry, I'll give you that, but also Assault speed and Heavy armor and low slung weapons. That's a bad combo if anyone shoots back at you.

Anyways, I'd say it's the Jager that obsoleted the old OB CTFs well before Clans arrived. Didn't help though.

View PostSatan n stuff, on 27 May 2015 - 01:50 AM, said:

Yes definitely, I use double PPC + AC/10 with a 300 XL engine and 4 jump jets, endo steel, full armor, 3.5 tons of ammo and 14 double heat sinks. The exact layout would depend on personal preference, I myself have the AC/10 in the right arm and the PPCs on the left side. I have run out of ammo on occasion in CW, but by then I've usually dealt well over 1000 damage with just that one mech. In a regular match it's more than enough ammo.


Guessed it was something like that. To me that's not very efficient, I'd call it a mid-range (slow velocity) sniping cataphract with an XL. Since it's glory days it has become much worse, mainly because of the PPC nerf, but also more tonnage wasted on JJs + JJ-heat + fall damage. I don't think it's wrong to say that the 3D needs some love to get up to par...

#7 Duke Nedo

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 03:16 AM

Perhaps I should just underline the main point in the OP, that was that the new -0XP really has shown that, at least to me, Cataphract brawling is alive with those armor quirks+ECM. If other Phracts could get the same treatment but with slightly better quirks to compensate for ECM they could also become equally viable.

I have tried my -0XP build minus ecm on my -3D and you can really feel the difference of those extra 1.5 tons of armor.

#8 MeiSooHaityu

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 03:22 AM

The reason the 0XP has those structure buffs is to help offset it's less than ideal weapon config. It is a heavy with only 5 weapon hardpoints. It has no high mount weapons at all. It's energy are low arm mounted (on a notorious knuckle dragger). It has one ballistic also low mounted in the torso.

PGI could have offset this with crazy weapon buffs, but instead made it more tanky. A good move in my opinion.

Now, all the other Cataphracts have far better firepower and at least have some high mount energy. Adding the 0XP's structure buffs to other variants would be too excessive considering their more ideal firepower and hard points.

#9 Satan n stuff

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 03:22 AM

View PostDuke Nedo, on 27 May 2015 - 03:10 AM, said:

Guessed it was something like that. To me that's not very efficient, I'd call it a mid-range (slow velocity) sniping cataphract with an XL. Since it's glory days it has become much worse, mainly because of the PPC nerf, but also more tonnage wasted on JJs + JJ-heat + fall damage. I don't think it's wrong to say that the 3D needs some love to get up to par...

My best CW scores for that mech are in the 1600-1700 range for damage, most of it focused on specific components.

Edited by Satan n stuff, 27 May 2015 - 03:24 AM.


#10 Duke Nedo

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 03:33 AM

View PostMeiSooHaityu, on 27 May 2015 - 03:22 AM, said:

The reason the 0XP has those structure buffs is to help offset it's less than ideal weapon config. It is a heavy with only 5 weapon hardpoints. It has no high mount weapons at all. It's energy are low arm mounted (on a notorious knuckle dragger). It has one ballistic also low mounted in the torso.

PGI could have offset this with crazy weapon buffs, but instead made it more tanky. A good move in my opinion.

Now, all the other Cataphracts have far better firepower and at least have some high mount energy. Adding the 0XP's structure buffs to other variants would be too excessive considering their more ideal firepower and hard points.


I agree the shoulder mounted E hardpoints on the 1X, 2X and 3D help a bit, but it's only 2 hardpoints and not housing the main weaponry. Perhaps I am missing something, but with the current Phract hitboxes I don't dare to run XL in any of them so the last time I took my 3D out it was with the same build that I am running on my 0XP so I do not in any way feel handicapped by hardpoint count on the 0XP... I only need to use 3.

Which build on another cataphract would be OP with these durability quirks?

#11 MeiSooHaityu

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 03:46 AM

View PostDuke Nedo, on 27 May 2015 - 03:33 AM, said:


I agree the shoulder mounted E hardpoints on the 1X, 2X and 3D help a bit...

Which build on another cataphract would be OP with these durability quirks?


You answered part of it in your own statement above. Two high mount energy. You could mount LLasers, LPLasers, ER or standard PPCs. I think one Cataphract even has PPC quirks.

If you still consider the ballistics the main weapon. The 0XP only had one ballistic where most other Cataphracts have 2 or 3. The other Phracts that don't, again have better weapon locations a long with strong ballistic and energy quirks.

The structure and armor are a way too offset less than ideal weapon locations, but without buffing the weapons too much because of the ECM.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 27 May 2015 - 03:48 AM.


#12 Duke Nedo

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 04:33 AM

View PostMeiSooHaityu, on 27 May 2015 - 03:46 AM, said:

You answered part of it in your own statement above. Two high mount energy. You could mount LLasers, LPLasers, ER or standard PPCs. I think one Cataphract even has PPC quirks.

If you still consider the ballistics the main weapon. The 0XP only had one ballistic where most other Cataphracts have 2 or 3. The other Phracts that don't, again have better weapon locations a long with strong ballistic and energy quirks.

The structure and armor are a way too offset less than ideal weapon locations, but without buffing the weapons too much because of the ECM.


Aye, not disagreeing with anything you write. Just to explain what I mean, when I think about main weapon I am thinking about one "volley", be that of whatever type it may. For example, the main weapon of my 0XP would be 2x LPL and 1x AC/20. In the case of the 0XP the location of these 3 hardpoints are not optimal, but also not the worst. You can protect them all with the left side, and you can side-poke, or slope-side-poke rather OK.

All other Cataphracts suffer approximately the same amount of nuisance from hardpoint placements imo. You can place one "half-volley" on the two high E hardpoints, but you'll never be able to do a full volley anyways, and if you use these two hardpoints you give up the ability to sword-an-board, while half your volley is low slung still. That goes for the 3D, 1X and 2X. For the Ilya and 4X it's worse, there I think we can agree that the entire main weaponry is low-slung.

I am thinking that the same armor quirks would be needed for all of them to compensate for hardpoint placement, while the -4X could use additional help because it's entire weaponry is low slung. Ilya perhaps also, but that's a Hero and with a larger engine, so I won't have an opinion about that one. The 3D already have worse quirks than the 1X and 2X because of JJs so I don't think we can use that argument twice.. I would even argue that it could use some minor quirk in addition to armor because it's quite far behind the 1X/2X level quirks and I am not entirely convinced that paying 4t to be able to jump compensates for that. Especially when it almost implies XL engine on a CTF...

Edited by Duke Nedo, 27 May 2015 - 04:36 AM.


#13 MeiSooHaityu

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 04:54 AM

Cataphracts now in general are in a different place than they used to be. With power creep, they are more relegated to initial fire support (with upper energy mounts), and then close in full weapons blazing. They used to brawl a bit more with ballistics in the past, but they are a bit barn door-ish and need to stay back a bit.

Now, an ECM heavy like the 0XP needs to stay with the leaders of a flank or push and is much more exposed. I think that is another reason it has more armor and structure too.

I know it would be nice to have more armor or structure on all variants. Heck, we all want our mechs to be more durable, but this is an offset for less ideal weapon placement and also maybe the role it has with ECM.





#14 Duke Nedo

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 05:16 AM

View PostMeiSooHaityu, on 27 May 2015 - 04:54 AM, said:

Cataphracts now in general are in a different place than they used to be. With power creep, they are more relegated to initial fire support (with upper energy mounts), and then close in full weapons blazing. They used to brawl a bit more with ballistics in the past, but they are a bit barn door-ish and need to stay back a bit.

Now, an ECM heavy like the 0XP needs to stay with the leaders of a flank or push and is much more exposed. I think that is another reason it has more armor and structure too.

I know it would be nice to have more armor or structure on all variants. Heck, we all want our mechs to be more durable, but this is an offset for less ideal weapon placement and also maybe the role it has with ECM.


Yeah, I hear you... still... Jagers in general can do that better, and Firebrands in particular (if you want high mounted E), so I would argue that all Phracts struggle with hardpoints, not just the 0XP (especially since it already has ECM for offset).

#15 MeiSooHaityu

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 05:51 AM

Hey, I feel ya.

I felt the same about my Catapults. I used to brawl with those mechs back in the day (even the C1). Back in closed beta a Catapult C1 with 2 LLasers, 2MLasers, and 2 SRM4s was pretty good. Now It's a death wish pretty much.

The K2 held out a while (especially dual gauss), but when the Jager came out, that changed too (high mount big ballistics).

Now I use them for more fire support and ranged skirmish. They work pretty good for that role. I just needed to reevaluate how I played them. I'd love for them to have the tankiness of a Timber Wolf so I can brawl a bit more, but I really can't expect PGI to buff the CT THAT much to make it doable.

The Phracts aren't tankers with firepower anymore, but if your smart and cunning, you can make it work.

I still run my 3D with 2 ERLLasers up top, 2 MLasers, 2 UA/C5s. I engage in long range fire support early match and close in with the group in a push later match and lay down big firepower. It works well. The Ilya is the only one I am currently struggling with.

Anyway, sometimes you just need to adapt.

#16 Duke Nedo

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 12:36 PM

Aye aye... we'll see. Hopefully they'll sell the 0XP for all it's worth and then bring the others up to that level in a month or two. Playing the -0XP sort of reignited an old flame for Cataphracts so it would be fun to take them out more.

They did the same with Battlemasters, gave it lots of armor and agility instead of strong weapon quirks so perhaps an experiment to see which type of quirks give the best effect on metrics.

Edited by Duke Nedo, 27 May 2015 - 12:36 PM.


#17 Khobai

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 12:42 PM

clans need assault with ECM

since IS got their heavy with ECM :P

#18 Gas Guzzler

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 01:52 PM

View PostKhobai, on 27 May 2015 - 12:42 PM, said:

clans need assault with ECM

since IS got their heavy with ECM :P


Yes ECM Dire Wolf please! For balance :)

#19 Yokaiko

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 01:55 PM

View PostGas Guzzler, on 27 May 2015 - 01:52 PM, said:


Yes ECM Dire Wolf please! For balance :)



They'll make an ECM Gargles or something.

Just to annoy me.

#20 PaeuxP22

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Posted 27 May 2015 - 02:06 PM

I'd take ecm gargles. 11 spl + ecm would be hilarious.

Anyway back to 'phracts. I've seen a lot more of them recently and although not quite thunderbolts they can be bloody useful. In the hands of a good pilot I've seen 6 kills and 1300 damage in a Pug match. I think theyre in a good place right now and there are Is heavies more in need of tweaking





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