29 replies to this topic

[XX Sulla XX]

Just had an idea so I thought I would put it out there. The idea is to limit total Elo for any group made in the group queue. Here is how it might work.

First to make simple lets say Elo goes from 0-100 per person. So the max any 12 man could be at the moment is 1200.

1. Groups of 1-4 would have no Elo limit. Sothey could have a combined Elo of 400.

2. Group of 5-12 would be on scale going from 480 to 800. So a 12 man could never have a total above 800 Elo.

For the numbers just throughing rough numbers to give you an idea of how it would work.

How it would work in game. You would get a red error like you do now when you have to many heavies etc.

What it would prevent. It would prevent the very best players grouping up and then the match maker trying to find good matches for them and failing.

It would also let lower Elo players still make larger groups.

Edited by XX Sulla XX, 27 May 2015 - 05:48 PM.

[Wintersdark]

XX Sulla XX, on 27 May 2015 - 05:48 PM, said:

Just had an idea so I thought I would put it out there. The idea is to limit total Elo for any group made in the group queue. Here is how it might work.

First to make simple lets say Elo goes from 0-100 per person. So the max any 12 man could be at the moment is 1200.

1. Groups of 1-4 would have no Elo limit. Sothey could have a combined Elo of 400.

2. Group of 5-12 would be on scale going from 480 to 800. So a 12 man could never have a total above 800 Elo.

For the numbers just throughing rough numbers to give you an idea of how it would work.

How it would work in game. You would get a red error like you do now when you have to many heavies etc.

Hardly fair. You'd have people suddenly unable to play with each other simply because they were good at the game. that's not going to lead to happy players.

Worse, you'd have players who USED to be able to group up and have fun suddenly not be able to anymore as they improve... and the more a group of players improves, the more they're unable to play together.

No, that's not a good solution at all.

Quote

What it would prevent. It would prevent the very best players grouping up and then the match maker trying to find good matches for them and failing.

Well, to be honest the MM is going to fail to find suitable matches even when the very best players are in small groups. Elo is on a bell curve; there are very few people at the ends.


Sorry, but this idea is terrible.

Better (but still absolutely problematic) is simply putting a 6-man cap on group size, which would mean max. 2 6 man groups per side.... And leave CW for larger groups.

I'm not saying that's a good solution, but if you're going to cap group size, you have to just have a set maximum size, you can't arbitrarily limit people using an unknown value.

[cSand]

what and take away the satisfaction of beating tryhards to a pulp?


there are only a few large groups/units that need be feared anyways when they rear their heads during the ceasefire, most are no bigger a threat than a team made of small pug groups

Edited by cSand, 27 May 2015 - 06:24 PM.

[Xetelian]

Like Wintersdark said, I wouldn't be able to play with my friends.

[Deathlike]

You didn't really think this out did you?

Besides, Elo isn't even "that low" (yes, I'm aware you had an example) and the number of people reaching top tier Elo is not a lot... vs the middle-tier Elo that is vast and large.

Edited by Deathlike, 27 May 2015 - 06:30 PM.

[XX Sulla XX]

Wintersdark, on 27 May 2015 - 06:18 PM, said:

Hardly fair. You'd have people suddenly unable to play with each other simply because they were good at the game. that's not going to lead to happy players.

Worse, you'd have players who USED to be able to group up and have fun suddenly not be able to anymore as they improve... and the more a group of players improves, the more they're unable to play together.

No, that's not a good solution at all.

Well, to be honest the MM is going to fail to find suitable matches even when the very best players are in small groups. Elo is on a bell curve; there are very few people at the ends.


Sorry, but this idea is terrible.

Better (but still absolutely problematic) is simply putting a 6-man cap on group size, which would mean max. 2 6 man groups per side.... And leave CW for larger groups.

I'm not saying that's a good solution, but if you're going to cap group size, you have to just have a set maximum size, you can't arbitrarily limit people using an unknown value.

The vast majority of people would still be able to group the same. Probably 95% would still be able to group. The vast majority of people think they have a higher Elo than they do.

[Cabbage Merchant]

XX Sulla XX, on 27 May 2015 - 06:57 PM, said:

The vast majority of people would still be able to group the same. Probably 95% would still be able to group. The vast majority of people think they have a higher Elo than they do.

My ELO is OVER 9000!!!

[XX Sulla XX]

Cabbage Merchant, on 27 May 2015 - 07:23 PM, said:

My ELO is OVER 9000!!!

I thought it was more like 90,000

[Cabbage Merchant]

XX Sulla XX, on 27 May 2015 - 07:26 PM, said:

I thought it was more like 90,000

90,000 is OVER 9,000, so I suppose it's possible

[9thDeathscream]

Not a bad idea. But then putting more limits on people in groups is going to hurt the queue even more. Id rather role the dice and hope my smaller group doesn't end up against a large group.

[XX Sulla XX]

Akulla1980, on 27 May 2015 - 07:44 PM, said:

Not a bad idea. But then putting more limits on people in groups is going to hurt the queue even more. Id rather role the dice and hope my smaller group doesn't end up against a large group.

Well it would make the job of the match maker easier. Most people have average Elos so it is easier to make groups of average players. The outliers at the very top and very bottom is what seems to give the match maker problems.

[9thDeathscream]

Well i play at different times of day. Afternoon in US is easy to get going in a match regardless of queue and or Mech class.

Afternoon in AU time is a lot harder. Putting restrictions on the queues when there is lower population active might hurt the MM process.

[XX Sulla XX]

Akulla1980, on 27 May 2015 - 08:30 PM, said:

Well i play at different times of day. Afternoon in US is easy to get going in a match regardless of queue and or Mech class.

Afternoon in AU time is a lot harder. Putting restrictions on the queues when there is lower population active might hurt the MM process.

It should help not hurt. Say for example there are 8 Emp and 7 SJR players on. They would need to be broken down into smaller groups. As soon as you do that the match maker has an easier time making matches.

[Slepnir]

Or PGI could have not screwed themselves from the beginning and just used the system already in place-battle value
every mech chassi has a naked base BV for all of it's fixed components, ever weapon or item (engines, BAP heat sinks etc..) all have a basic BV.

no matter what you put on your mech there will be a number which can then be easily put into a search program that matches teams based on a spread of BV . it's a system far more fair and workable than simply a W/L ELO system.

[Khobai]

Heres a better idea:

solo players and groups of 2-3 dont get put in same games as groups of 4-12 players.

you should be able to play with one or two friends and not have to deal with 12 man BS. But if youre in a group of 4+ you should get put in the group queue.

Edited by Khobai, 27 May 2015 - 11:15 PM.

[XX Sulla XX]

Khobai, on 27 May 2015 - 11:13 PM, said:

Heres a better idea:

solo players and groups of 2-3 dont get put in same games as groups of 4-12 players.

you should be able to play with one or two friends and not have to deal with 12 man BS. But if youre in a group of 4+ you should get put in the group queue.

The size of the group matters a LOT less than the Elo of the group.

[XX Sulla XX]

KisumiKitsune, on 27 May 2015 - 11:08 PM, said:

The composition of 'mechs matters so laughably little, you're completely missing the point of this topic. BV would do nothing to remedy groups of amazingly skilled players rolling over foam helmet LRM boating centurions, which is the problem being talked about here.

On the note of the actual topic though... I don't think this is a good idea at all. It'd invalidate the ability of competitive teams to play together at any given time aside from during actual matches. A much better solution would to actually have a functional ELO "tier" system similar to League of Legends, Starcraft, and just about any other game with a ranking system. If the competitive tryhards were only steam rolling other Diamond-tier teams, nobody would complain. Meanwhile, all the LRM boats and olive green 'mechs can teamkill each other by accident in Styrofoam-tier and have nobody to blame but themselves and team mates.

Then there's the issue of how it currently tries to match total team ELO rather than the ELO of all participating pilots, but that's a problem for Solo que and results in things like the fact that Lucy Lui and I can drop in 2 Huggin, kill 7 of the enemy team, die, and have our team lose 12-7.

It is a lot of the comp players talking about doing this. Siri was the original person bringing it up. Comp teams can do private matches to play against each other in CW. Rolling over much less skilled teams for hundreds of matches in a row does not really help them much. http://www.reddit.co...queue_max_of_4/

Edited by XX Sulla XX, 28 May 2015 - 03:21 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

XX Sulla XX, on 27 May 2015 - 08:18 PM, said:

Well it would make the job of the match maker easier. Most people have average Elos so it is easier to make groups of average players. The outliers at the very top and very bottom is what seems to give the match maker problems.

You are talking group Que and not CW right?

A PUG group should not be spotted anything. I can lose every match and not care. If we had a good match is all I care about, well that and did I pull my weight.

[Wintersdark]

Khobai, on 27 May 2015 - 11:13 PM, said:

Heres a better idea:

solo players and groups of 2-3 dont get put in same games as groups of 4-12 players.

you should be able to play with one or two friends and not have to deal with 12 man BS. But if youre in a group of 4+ you should get put in the group queue.

Derp.

You can't have large groups without small groups to balance them

8 man team needs 4 or 2+2, 9 needs 3, 10 needs 2.

This is why I said in my initial post that capping the queue at 6 would be an option (but not necessarily a good one). At 6, you can still try to match with another 6.

XX Sulla XX, on 27 May 2015 - 06:57 PM, said:

The vast majority of people would still be able to group the same. Probably 95% would still be able to group. The vast majority of people think they have a higher Elo than they do.

My response remains exactly the same. You can't punish players for getting good.

Its still a bad idea, even if it only hurts a small subset of players.

[Almond Brown]

Considering that each player has 4 elo's, one for each weight class (L-M-H-A) we can assume that the top players can pick any weight class in their stables and remain in a high ELO state. Whereas, a relatively new player, who just switched weight class, starting a new set of Mechs to Master, can go from a Fair/Middle (elited weight set) to a Low (starter) elo in 1 Drop and is basically starting over as far as ELO rating is concerned.

Thus any elo system will have to deal with that every Match, regardless if the same players comes right back in (except the long time players with fully kitted Mech Bays).

What truly matters on any group combination, and is easily seen in PUG play, is a willingness, from the outset of the Match, to be a participant and add your armor and guns to the "collective" fight.

We don't know our elo's but it becomes very obvious, very early on, in any PUG Match whether you have a Team, or a rabble of Rambo's without a clue. Group sizes, below the full 12 man level, down to, say the 8-man level, do not guarantee success.

Although a silly notion, I would rather fight with 11 PUG's with purpose, than 11 higher elo ranked players who all have "Rambo" complexes. But that is just me.

P.S. The MWO MM has been working pretty good of late. Decent PUG wait times and mostly decent fights. :]

Edited by Almond Brown, 28 May 2015 - 09:54 AM.