19 replies to this topic

[Revengex]

PGI,

Thanks for finally accepting that there is rampant cheating, and doing something about it.

However, there is still cheating going on. I don't think the message is getting out. I still see shots through the ground, multiple core shots, being seen on the map through hills, buildings, etc.

Its not helpful to silence people for caring about this.

If you ever want to get to steam, you need to address this continuously. Some kind of tool, like PUNKBUSTER or other should be available. Otherwise you are just putting a band aid over the problem. Tournaments are no good when cheaters reap the rewards.

You took a brave step acknowledging that cheating is real, but you need to develop a system to combat cheating, on the fly. A tool to do so.

Perception, is reality.

[o0Marduk0o]

Wow nice, what a fresh idea. They totally never thought about that.

[Revengex]

• 
  sar·cas·tic
  
  adjective marked by or given to using irony in order to mock or convey contempt, by a douchebag.

Edited by Revengex, 11 June 2015 - 07:39 PM.

[Mad Porthos]

Hey RevengeX, read your comment/post and while they may well need some snoopware/anticheat stuff on players computers liike punkbuster, your three things you indicated were showing cheating was going on still actually are not particularly indicators of that at all - at least as I understand from your statements, using your particular desciption in your post.


- Getting shot out of the ground. By this I gather you mean like seeing shots hit you that seem to pass through a ridge, hill or nearby building that you have ducked behind. The cheatyiness you believef you see is squarely in the blamezone of something called HOST STATE REWIND (HSR), which is supposed to make it more possible for someone on a slow computer and remote locale with a high ping (bad ping) delay still have a more enjoyable chance of hittinh you and doing damage, regardless. Basically it works by giving extra weight to what he sees on his screen,so if he fires and really hits you on his screen sucessfully aiming at what he sees, then you will be hit, even though to you there has been a ridge between you for several moments, or you are totally behind a building. Because the game FAIRLY awarded the hit to your enemy - since he hit you in his laggy version of things, BEFORE you were under cover - this HSR thing tells your game client to show you being hit, and it does... but to you it looks like the impossible shot, laser or gauss or ppc coming through the hill and ground. It was either this or rubberband you BACK to where you were when it awarded that hit based on the other guy's tme delayed aim and it was decided that this way of resolving the difference was less jarring/disruptive than constantly getting rubberbanded and deja vu'ed every time you are fighting an opponent much farther away/laggier etc.


- Multiple cored shots. Not quite sure what you mean by this, but I have heard some suspect cheating after spectating another player who in short order targets one enemy, nearly cored and BOOM, cores them... then pivots and repeats on another, another, another... in each case not actually having so big an alpha strike as to be able to one shot kill yet the enemy is dying each time. Cheaty hax?

Not actually, but sometimes annoying. Two things can account for this regularly, the main one is VOIP, whether you can hear it or not. PLENTY still use teamspeak or other means of group voice comms and many of these teams have a caller who is very competent at prioritizing enemy targets for the team to focus on. When you witness this spectating, it may be hard to recognize that 3-5 people might be alphaing that target at once after their caller says target direwolf CHARLIE, right torso or back center etc. If you are watching a particularly experienced player who is looking to maximize his kills, you may see them repeatedly hesitate then get the killing blow after they watch their teamates peel a tough target's armor.

ANOTHER factor in this for callers and those wishing to always quickly notice gaps to exploit in enemy armor, is to run Target Info Gathering module, Beagle Active Probe and even Command Module. If your caller has the tonnage to run all three he can essentially be the guy constantly flipping through enemy brackets and deciding the focus, aided by his beagle vs. ecm and the fact that a team coordinating this way often run beagle / clan active probe in as many mechs as possible, in order to be able to shut down 2,3 even 4 ecms at once and keep the information flowing.


- Being seen on the map through walls, buildings etc. This in partially bug, partially intended built in feature depending on what exactly you are referring to. The graphics glitch where occasionally an enemy has backed fully behind a hill, but for some reason the hill contour seems oddly to float or clips/strobes revealing the mech is right there behind the hill/rock and starting to move forward to expose self etc. that is a glitch with level of detail that they really gotta fix because it happens far too often. But knowing an opponent is just around that corner or behind that building... that is BUILT IN TO THIS GAME, as the Seizmic Sensor. 250m range in every direction from you, and you get to see any mech moving, jumping or torso twisting with a glowy trace on your mini map that can be interpreted to guess number of mechs, direction of movement etc. To get that read out all you have to do if you have the module, is simply pause rather than barrel around a corner and to make it even more effective, groups in comms sometimes relay seizmic info verbally, i.e.3 in cave heading B3, fast movers (forest colony).

I have heard people playing this game for months even, casually - express suprise and shock that thier ecm mech was not invisible, that enemy were ready for them when they popped out behind them or were above a cave or hiding on a building top, with ecm but still were detected - they even cry hacks or are catapulted into a rant about how stupid OP seizmic is a cheaty wall hax. In each case its been seizmic not hax, it is a powerful tool against ambushes, flanks and backstabs. But in non group play, there can be other things to take on a solo focused build rather than stuff like target info, command module or even seizmic - which is why many underestimate some of these modules or have just been told that they are garbage, cause they are if you are not using that fast info to make the whole team more effective.

Edited by Mad Porthos, 11 June 2015 - 09:47 PM.

[Domenoth]

Revengex, on 11 June 2015 - 07:36 PM, said:

• 
  
  sar·cas·tic
  
  adjective marked by or given to using irony in order to mock or convey contempt, by a douchebag.

You must be using the Oxford dictionary because Merriam-Webster doesn't have that last part...

Also, the fact that you use the word "rampant" and included "shots through the ground" as a cheat makes me think every time you die, you assume it's a cheat. Mad Porthos seems to have given a detailed reason why what you seem to think is happening (cheating) has another explanation (server-authoritative games are hard).

[IraqiWalker]

Revengex, on 11 June 2015 - 02:30 PM, said:

PGI,

Thanks for finally accepting that there is rampant cheating, and doing something about it.

However, there is still cheating going on. I don't think the message is getting out. I still see shots through the ground, multiple core shots, being seen on the map through hills, buildings, etc.

Its not helpful to silence people for caring about this.

If you ever want to get to steam, you need to address this continuously. Some kind of tool, like PUNKBUSTER or other should be available. Otherwise you are just putting a band aid over the problem. Tournaments are no good when cheaters reap the rewards.

You took a brave step acknowledging that cheating is real, but you need to develop a system to combat cheating, on the fly. A tool to do so.

Perception, is reality.

Literally none of those are cheats. In fact, those are impossible to employ in a cheat.

Mad Porthos has a good detail of it all, but a shorter version is simply:

1- Shots through the ground are either due to HSR, or faulty map design (there are ramps on Mining where you can shoot literally through them.

2- Multiple core shots? If you mean someone cored you out with only a few shots, that's not a cheat. Damage and health cannot be modified by a cheating tool, since all of this is handled on the server side. Which means that for someone to do this, they need to hack right into PGI's servers, and change the stats for their weapons only, not get caught, and still continue to do so repeatedly.

3- Being seen through terrain is NOT a cheat. That's simply a rendering problem. I've been accused of cheating many times, because I could track a target while they were behind cover. Simply because for me, that cover didn't render, but the mech does.

[m]

Revengex just provide a video/screen capture of what you are specifically talking about when it happens to you, since it happens so frequently when you play.

[Revengex]

Well forgive me my ignorance and stupidity.

Of course its just me. There is no reason for PGI to put any effort into fixing this problem. Its all fine. All is well. No exploits, cheats or hacks are being used. That is why it took 300 words to explain to me that I'm just a bad player who is too dumb to understand.

Here I will make your statement for you.

"THERE IS NO, ZERO, EXPLOITS, CHEATS, HACKS OR OTHER INEQUITABLE ADVANTAGES IN MWO. SHUT UP, PAY YOUR MONEY AND PRAY WE DON'T PUNISH YOU FOR IT.

de·lud·edde·lud·ing

transitive verb
1
: to mislead the mind or judgment of

[IraqiWalker]

Revengex, on 15 June 2015 - 08:49 PM, said:

Well forgive me my ignorance and stupidity.

Of course its just me. There is no reason for PGI to put any effort into fixing this problem. Its all fine. All is well. No exploits, cheats or hacks are being used. That is why it took 300 words to explain to me that I'm just a bad player who is too dumb to understand.

Here I will make your statement for you.

"THERE IS NO, ZERO, EXPLOITS, CHEATS, HACKS OR OTHER INEQUITABLE ADVANTAGES IN MWO. SHUT UP, PAY YOUR MONEY AND PRAY WE DON'T PUNISH YOU FOR IT.

de·lud·edde·lud·ing

transitive verb
1
: to mislead the mind or judgment of

I did not say any of that to you, but the message is still the same. What you are describing are glitches, not cheats. Actually, none of the cheats, or hacks (that I've heard of) do what you describe.

[Revengex]

IraqiWalker, on 16 June 2015 - 12:42 AM, said:

I did not say any of that to you, but the message is still the same. What you are describing are glitches, not cheats. Actually, none of the cheats, or hacks (that I've heard of) do what you describe.

Its not a war, its a police action. These "glitches" give one player who uses them an advantage. Calling it a "glitch" instead of a cheat, hack or exploit is inane and irrelevant. They are actively being used by many player groups. Of course they complain when you seek to shut them down. They can't win as much if PGI does.

PGI needs to address these long standing "advantages, glitches, cheats, exploits," whatever you chose to call them.

I hear PGI will return some of the accounts they marked for closure as cheats because the owners have argued that they are just adjustments to video settings. They are advantages taken by people over others. I can't imagine PGI wanted these advantages to be part of the game, see through items, etc, so they need to be fixed.

[IraqiWalker]

Revengex, on 16 June 2015 - 09:41 PM, said:

Its not a war, its a police action. These "glitches" give one player who uses them an advantage. Calling it a "glitch" instead of a cheat, hack or exploit is inane and irrelevant. They are actively being used by many player groups. Of course they complain when you seek to shut them down. They can't win as much if PGI does.

PGI needs to address these long standing "advantages, glitches, cheats, exploits," whatever you chose to call them.

I hear PGI will return some of the accounts they marked for closure as cheats because the owners have argued that they are just adjustments to video settings. They are advantages taken by people over others. I can't imagine PGI wanted these advantages to be part of the game, see through items, etc, so they need to be fixed.

They are not being used by choice. That is the problem with your logic. A cheat, or a hack, implies that it is being used consciously and actively by the player, instead of the accident that it is.

[Revengex]

Mr. Walker,

So there are cheats and hacks or there are no cheats and hacks? There is a need for a tool to curb cheating or there is no need for one?

Which is it?

[IraqiWalker]

Revengex, on 17 June 2015 - 02:28 PM, said:

Mr. Walker,

So there are cheats and hacks or there are no cheats and hacks? There is a need for a tool to curb cheating or there is no need for one?

Which is it?

There are actual cheats and hacks (the reason we have been getting waves of bans, since PGI implemented some kind of cheater buster system). However, all that you are describing is unintentional glitches, none are used willingly, or maliciously.

That's what we've been trying to tell you.

[Revengex]

OK. so, crimeny, so you agree there needs to be a tool to do more. But you want to argue with me over the definition of a cheat, hack, exploit?

Really, I am done with trying to carry this banner. And that what you wanted all along, to waste my time, and punish me for saying PGI is not doing enough to address cheats, hacks, exploits, unfair advantages.

[IraqiWalker]

Revengex, on 18 June 2015 - 10:36 AM, said:

OK. so, crimeny, so you agree there needs to be a tool to do more. But you want to argue with me over the definition of a cheat, hack, exploit?

Really, I am done with trying to carry this banner. And that what you wanted all along, to waste my time, and punish me for saying PGI is not doing enough to address cheats, hacks, exploits, unfair advantages.

I'm not trying to waste your time. I'm trying to help you understand why your post made little sense, and where you made mistakes. If you can't understand that cheats/exploits are not the same as glitches, then I really shouldn't be wasting MY time with you. Do bear in mind that I was trying to be respectful to you during this entire discussion, and you were the one throwing immature tantrums, and wanting to ban people for something beyond their control.

Should I campaign to have you tried for war crimes committed in your country, or a country near you? You didn't do them. It's not your fault they happened, and you probably (I hope) didn't want them to happen, or campaigned for them. However, according to your logic. You're guilty, and you should be tried for them.

One more thing: I never said PGI shouldn't be doing more, nor did I say there isn't more to be done. I also wasn't punishing you. If I was, you'd know, I'd make sure of that.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 18 June 2015 - 03:32 PM.

[Lily from animove]

lol, punkbuster, rofl, how about savign thsi money for soemthign proper, PB does NOTHING helpful, every PB game is easily cheatable and also full of cheaters.

Fairfight can help, sicne it tracks performance and can detect metahuman behavior, which if constantly pulled off is impossible. Others than this, only active GM's will ever help to defeat cheating, sicne any client side anticehat IS cheatable itself.

Edited by Lily from animove, 30 July 2015 - 02:54 AM.

[CrimsonRedX]

Revengex and IragiWalker have their points, but the fact still remains. Cheats still exists.

[TANTE EMMA]

This is going to be funny...