114 replies to this topic

[RG Notch]

ScrapIron Prime, on 04 July 2012 - 08:11 AM, said:

It's neither bigotry nor ignorance. I gave that game a fair shot, and I do not like it. The endgame mechanics are poor, the idea that a low tier tank cannot harm a high one , while realistic, is broken for an MMO, and the somewhat random targeting system, while I see the need for it, is annoying. The game devolves into an endless string of grinding for resources OR a steady payment plan to avoid said same.

The fact that MWO will feature a method by which all weight classes of mech remain viable in the face of all others is a vast improvement, and shows that thoughtful game design can be used to avoid the pitfalls common to other titles.

I'm amazed that people have concluded, merely on the words of the devs that all mechs will be viable and that the game won't be P2W because the devs said so. No one is ever going to say their game is P2W whether they intend it to be or not. No one is ever going to say that some class will be better than another. The proof will be in the actual game play. The road to hell or P2W is paved with good intentions.
That said I think they have a good plan, that's why I ponied up legendary Founder money. But then again I thought WoT had a good plan and that didn't turn out as they said or continue to say. People need to realize the game is in development and no one has seen the full release. It's all well and good to have faith the devs will get it right, it's silly to state these things like they're facts. Some people are going to be disappointed that the game doesn't match what the devs have promised pre launch. It always happens, like politicians, developers spin things or honestly don't see the issues with their own designs.
The staunchest defenders pre launch often become the most bitter folks afterwards since they believe too much pre launch hype. Perspective is your friend, take a step back and remember who's telling you how great things are going to be and what their angle is. If people who are planning on making money off of a project are telling you how great it's going to be sight unseen, well ....

[DarkBazerker]

Wolfclaw, on 04 July 2012 - 08:08 AM, said:

Let me save you a lot of time...

NO-ONE cares about why you don't want to buy one!

This in a nutshell

[Dagger6T6]

[optimal pain]

ScrapIron Prime, on 04 July 2012 - 08:11 AM, said:

It's neither bigotry nor ignorance. I gave that game a fair shot, and I do not like it. The endgame mechanics are poor, the idea that a low tier tank cannot harm a high one , while realistic, is broken for an MMO, and the somewhat random targeting system, while I see the need for it, is annoying. The game devolves into an endless string of grinding for resources OR a steady payment plan to avoid said same.

The fact that MWO will feature a method by which all weight classes of mech remain viable in the face of all others is a vast improvement, and shows that thoughtful game design can be used to avoid the pitfalls common to other titles.

Let me point out one thing for you. If they make MWO completely comfortable to play without paying, they'll go bankrupt before this year's end (ok, maybe they'll last a little longer because of all the fanboys who bought founder packs). Because if there is no reason to pay, then everyone will just play for free. You either grind or pay, this is how F2P works.

And in fact the Devs already mentioned it's going to be the same way in MWO, they just weren't that straightforward in wording it.

Edited by optimal pain, 04 July 2012 - 03:45 PM.

[Lord Cole]

optimal pain, on 04 July 2012 - 03:40 PM, said:

Let me point out one thing for you. If they make MWO completely comfortable to play without paying, they'll go bankrupt before this year's end (ok, maybe they'll last a little longer because of all the fanboys who bought founder packs). Because if there is no reason to pay, then everyone will just play for free. You either grind or pay, this is how F2P works.

And in fact the Devs already mentioned it's going to be the same way in MWO, they just weren't that straightforward in wording it.

That is not true, lets say me and one or two guys from my House are dropping a little cash to gain some custom art for our lance. After a couple matches someone says, "cool, WE need to customize our units like that other lance". And so on, and so on... F2P works because it allows you to pay for things on YOUR terms. I myself will always have a premium account, but then I have a budget for such. Does not mean I will not have to keep my skills in check. Because all I will be really gaining is "Pay 2 B Seg'z"

Let us also not forget content roll-outs; the evolving nature of the Mechwarrior/Battletech universe means that the devs are going to have to roll out A LOT of content packs/expansions, this will keep the game fresh. This will also mean more options becoming available to the player.

ACK started to go off topic, sorry...

[Tekkiller]

Xune, on 04 July 2012 - 07:04 AM, said:

If all you are intrested in are your own selfish reasons and the 3 Months of premium your not the target audiance of the "Founder" pack anyway.

I'm sorry, but I don't think this response is adequate. Yes, some of us (myself included) might be BT universe fans that want this project to succeed for our own reasons and dedication to the BT universe which is... in other words, for our own selfish reasons.

The OP simply outlined his rationale that would make him purchase the founders package and his reasoning supports his case very well. Seems like fanatical devotion to a game/idea/religion makes people unreasonable! You should check in with the Word of Blake...

[Tekkiller]

Xune, on 04 July 2012 - 07:28 AM, said:

I gave them the money so they could pay the bills and have a good starting found to run the game.
That was my main reason, getting some goodies on top was a plus. Dont Judge everyone by your standarts.

Ahhh Xune, after reading this, all I can say is "Freu mich darauf dich im Visier zu haben. Ich habe Moralapostel noch nie leiden koennen!!" /add KoS

[MadDokGrotsnik]

cplkillem, on 04 July 2012 - 06:58 AM, said:

So I have been playing World of tanks for over a year now (~1700 matches in) so I do not consider myself a newb to FTPgames.

In typical FTP you start with cheaper gear (in this instance it will be mechs), and you will have to unlock better mechs and earn money to buy them. In world of tanks, you start with a tier 1 tank. You accrue XP to unlock upgrades and better tanks while earning money (used to repair your tank, buy ammunition and upgrades). At the start, money is never an issue. You simply make more money then you need to repair and rearm your cheaper low end, entry tank (you may have to grind a little to earn enough $ to buy that next, tier tank but you end up with a profit from every match). This makes sense, a new player needs to be able to cut his teeth, get the feel of the game, try different classes to see what suits their fancy and frankly, get hooked.

As you progress in world of tanks, as you get to arround tier 7 things have changed greatly. If you have a bad round you loose alot of money (you may not make enough to repair your tank, let alone pay for ammunition to replace what you expended), while on a good round you may break even or make a small profit. Leading to 3 play options,
1) stick to playing with tier 6 and below tanks, rarely earn less virtual money in a match then it costs you to play the round and be happy

2) Play multiple lower level tier matches to build up some cash reserves then play with the tier 7+ tank until the reserves run out, then go back to grinding lower tiers to rebuild the reserve.

3) buy a premium account and or premium tank. to greatly decrease the amout of farming needed to generate the required cashflow to compete in higher tier matches.

Premium accounts let you earn more $ and they also let you earn more XP (sound familiar?). In short, a premium account at the beginning serves no purposes but to help you get thru the lower tiers quicker, while later on, a premium account lets you play higher tiers without having to grind money with lower tier'd matches.

Please oh please let me buy into the founders program, but let me choose when I want my account to be a premium account. I am more then happy grinding thru the lower level/beginning tiers at a normal pace, without the premium account. I am concerned if I have a premium account at the beginning, I'll fly thru the lower ranks and when I need the premium account the most, it'll expire. For this reason, today, it makes no sense for me to buy in to the founders program, but wait until the ~2 month mark and just buy a premium account then (if at all).

with this simple little change, you'll get more money out of me (and I suspect others) in the long run....

I've heard from a few sources including this forum that the game isnt going to be tiered like WoT ( which i also play) so there is no erly levels to grind through you just pick you mech customize it and go. No going through one mech to get another everything is available form the get go you just have to afford it.

[autogyro]

Think of it this way:

$60 now for $80 ingame credits, 1 preorder mech which can never be purchased, 1 free mech bay for the founder mech, and 2 months premium.

Or, $60 once the game goes live for... $60 ingame credits, probably.

Also, I'm sure there'll be 1 day, 3 day, 1 week etc premium accounts.

[Todd Lee]

I'm sure that they will offer some sort of experience/c-bill boosters in the game. It will allow them to have a continued revenue stream from people who wish to buy power. Valve has a system similar to this in their upcoming Defense of the Ancients 2 (DOTA 2) game, where you can purchase experience boosters and use them before a match begins.

[Tekkiller]

RG Notch, on 04 July 2012 - 08:28 AM, said:

I'm amazed that people have concluded, merely on the words of the devs that all mechs will be viable and that the game won't be P2W because the devs said so. No one is ever going to say their game is P2W whether they intend it to be or not. No one is ever going to say that some class will be better than another. The proof will be in the actual game play. The road to hell or P2W is paved with good intentions.
That said I think they have a good plan, that's why I ponied up legendary Founder money. But then again I thought WoT had a good plan and that didn't turn out as they said or continue to say. People need to realize the game is in development and no one has seen the full release. It's all well and good to have faith the devs will get it right, it's silly to state these things like they're facts. Some people are going to be disappointed that the game doesn't match what the devs have promised pre launch. It always happens, like politicians, developers spin things or honestly don't see the issues with their own designs.
The staunchest defenders pre launch often become the most bitter folks afterwards since they believe too much pre launch hype. Perspective is your friend, take a step back and remember who's telling you how great things are going to be and what their angle is. If people who are planning on making money off of a project are telling you how great it's going to be sight unseen, well ....

This is the most insightful post in the thread. The sceptic in me fully expects that it's not as easy as "all Mechs will be viable always". In the end, the developers need to create incentives for people to give the money. And not just a few 100 hardcore fans, but thousands or hundreds of thousands of players, not just once but consistently. You don't achieve that goal by simply making everything available with tiny little effort. There is not point in providing shortcuts for real $$s if everything is easily achievable and equal to entry level gear.

So, in other words, in order to create sufficient incentive for enough people to give the developers money so they can pay for expenses and turn a profit (which is needed to attract investors/capital), the negatives of not paying the developers need to be big enough to make such shortcuts desirable enough to spend real money. I.e. (i) there needs to be a power curve giving people an advantage at the top end (ii) the grind to get to the top end needs to be painful and (iii) by paying real $$ the grind/pain can be significantly shortened.

Of course I hope this isn't the case, but analyzing business plans for a living, I cannot imagine an alternative.



EDIT: And to be perfectly honest, it is a perfectly fair business model. In the end, monthly expenses and profit requirements aren't met by one-time minimum revenue generators. Be it from subscription or microtrans, revenues need to be earned consistently. The game world needs to create the necessary incentive for people to consistently spend $$.

Edited by Tekkiller, 04 July 2012 - 04:43 PM.

[Bearcut]

I bought a founder's pack simply to gain access on the 7th.

However, I will be busy and unable to play until the 18th of August. Am i pissed I will miss out on two weeks of XP? Absolutely. But I dont think its my right to tell them how to do business.

[The Master 1955]

I Have been playing WOT as long as you have. 6700 matches 8-)) I understand your position. Don't spend the money. There is nothing wrong with that. Yet if you spend a great deal of time ******** about people who work for a living and spend there money as they see fit. I will have to become a team killer/ or hunt you down with my founders mech. Nothing personal just business.

[Squigles]

Tekkiller, on 04 July 2012 - 04:34 PM, said:

So, in other words, in order to create sufficient incentive for enough people to give the developers money so they can pay for expenses and turn a profit (which is needed to attract investors/capital), the negatives of not paying the developers need to be big enough to make such shortcuts desirable enough to spend real money. I.e. (i) there needs to be a power curve giving people an advantage at the top end (ii) the grind to get to the top end needs to be painful and (iii) by paying real $$ the grind/pain can be significantly shortened.

Of course I hope this isn't the case, but analyzing business plans for a living, I cannot imagine an alternative.

Here's an alternative, Team Fortress 2, game makes plenty of money, ya know what they sell? Hats, silly, pretty much pointless hats. There's no huge grind to the "end game", in fact, there's not really any major power curve at the top end either. Nexon's Kart Racer, tons o money there, one of the best selling items? A freaking hotdog that your racer held while he drove.

Why do you think the dev's stuck a post in general asking what people would want in their cockpits? It wasn't so they could add it for free. For those that have paid attention their financial scheme has become more and more obvious, and it doesn't revolve around a painful grind to the "top tier", even the idea of such a thing is anathema to a setting such as battletech.

[Bearcut]

Squigles, on 04 July 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:

Here's an alternative, Team Fortress 2, game makes plenty of money, ya know what they sell? Hats, silly, pretty much pointless hats. There's no huge grind to the "end game", in fact, there's not really any major power curve at the top end either. Nexon's Kart Racer, tons o money there, one of the best selling items? A freaking hotdog that your racer held while he drove.

Why do you think the dev's stuck a post in general asking what people would want in their cockpits? It wasn't so they could add it for free. For those that have paid attention their financial scheme has become more and more obvious, and it doesn't revolve around a painful grind to the "top tier", even the idea of such a thing is anathema to a setting such as battletech.

I downloaded Tribes:Ascend just to see if my new laptop will run high end games before I purchased the Founders Pack for MWO

And after playing it for a few days, I realized a couple things: Even though items in the game were hard to grind, they didnt make you a better player then having basic items. I was killing plenty of players with the starting grenade launcher and often was one of the top players in the match. I don't like the game enough to spend money on it, but if I did, i'm sure i'd have no problem plopping down 20 bucks for a few items.

If this game has a good balance, we'll have a large player base, and people wont mind spending 10 bucks a month to acquire new items. 10 bucks? Thats lunch. But its alot better than requiring a large initial purchase or asking for a subscription, because in a game like this, we don't have to keep paying.

Its mechwarrior. A good pilot can kill anything with anything else. Are Commandos going to get stomped into the ground? You bet. But that doesnt mean that you can't pick an assault as your beginning free mech if you are worried about it.

I can't wait personally. And I'll have more money ready to go if the game delivers.

[Romulus Stahl]

cplkillem, on 04 July 2012 - 06:58 AM, said:

So I have been playing World of tanks for over a year now (~1700 matches in) so I do not consider myself a newb to FTPgames.

with this simple little change, you'll get more money out of me (and I suspect others) in the long run....

No one cares, thousands have already bought the founders pack without your input. You should be playing WoT.

[Twisted Power]

I just wanted to say:

I would have given the $120 as a donation if they had asked for it. The founders pack rewards are gifts they are giving back to me. I see all the things I am getting from being a founder as FREE as I did not ask for them, nor did I purchas founders to get them. I understand that some people want to put money down ( and have already) because they like to get a bargin and feel like they got something others did not but this is not why I invested into this game.

I even bought 1 of my friends founders just to get more money to the devs and to show my thanks. My friend would have played this game regardless and played it often so it was both a gift to him and to this game.

I understand that some people feel that they are loosing out on their money because the founders rewards are not what they want for their $. All I have to say is that I am sorry you cannot just support the game.

Expecting somthing in return is not giving support. That kind of "support" is a byproduct from your desire to get a deal and I do not mind that you don't have the title that shows you care and support this game.

Edited by Twisted Power, 04 July 2012 - 05:38 PM.

[shadowhawk102]

i have waited for a game of this type for many years, and getting the founders tag just means i support what is being done, and like others the stuff is just a bonus.
i think that if they could find a way to delay 3 monthes that would be cool, but in the grand scheme of things minor.

[DraigUK]

cplkillem, on 04 July 2012 - 06:58 AM, said:

So I have been playing World of tanks for over a year now (~1700 matches in) so I do not consider myself a newb to FTPgames.

1700 matches in WoT means you are a newb. It's next to nothing. Especially after a year of playing.

Quote

In typical FTP you start with cheaper gear (in this instance it will be mechs), and you will have to unlock better mechs and earn money to buy them. In world of tanks, you start with a tier 1 tank. You accrue XP to unlock upgrades and better tanks while earning money (used to repair your tank, buy ammunition and upgrades). At the start, money is never an issue. You simply make more money then you need to repair and rearm your cheaper low end, entry tank (you may have to grind a little to earn enough $ to buy that next, tier tank but you end up with a profit from every match). This makes sense, a new player needs to be able to cut his teeth, get the feel of the game, try different classes to see what suits their fancy and frankly, get hooked.

This is not a typical FTP so your comparison on this issue are moot.

Quote

As you progress in world of tanks, as you get to arround tier 7 things have changed greatly. If you have a bad round you loose alot of money (you may not make enough to repair your tank, let alone pay for ammunition to replace what you expended), while on a good round you may break even or make a small profit. Leading to 3 play options,
1) stick to playing with tier 6 and below tanks, rarely earn less virtual money in a match then it costs you to play the round and be happy

2) Play multiple lower level tier matches to build up some cash reserves then play with the tier 7+ tank until the reserves run out, then go back to grinding lower tiers to rebuild the reserve.

3) buy a premium account and or premium tank. to greatly decrease the amout of farming needed to generate the required cashflow to compete in higher tier matches.

Premium accounts let you earn more $ and they also let you earn more XP (sound familiar?). In short, a premium account at the beginning serves no purposes but to help you get thru the lower tiers quicker, while later on, a premium account lets you play higher tiers without having to grind money with lower tier'd matches.

All this is pretty much spot on ....for WoT..doesn't hold water here, different game. There is no "tiers" you need to stop thinking of it that way.

Quote

Please oh please let me buy into the founders program, but let me choose when I want my account to be a premium account. I am more then happy grinding thru the lower level/beginning tiers at a normal pace, without the premium account. I am concerned if I have a premium account at the beginning, I'll fly thru the lower ranks and when I need the premium account the most, it'll expire. For this reason, today, it makes no sense for me to buy in to the founders program, but wait until the ~2 month mark and just buy a premium account then (if at all).

with this simple little change, you'll get more money out of me (and I suspect others) in the long run....

Disagree. If you buy the mid tier (Vet) option you get 2 months of premium. If you need more after that drop $10 or so and get more. There are no "ranks" as your comparing it to WoT so this argument does not hold true. Get out of that mindset.

Edited by DraigUK, 04 July 2012 - 06:26 PM.

[Aldrai Sedai]

They're not going to make it like WoT, Sinple as that (see links below). Besides, I don't see the founder's program as anything other than a game pre-order, even though it's free. Since with most pre-orders from amazon or gamestop, you get something special. If you feel like you're going to like the game even with what little you've seen, then buy it.

If you're worried about a tiered system in this game, I would suggest you read This and This.

TL:DR, This isn't WoT and will never be WoT.