159 replies to this topic

[Kalimaster]

Yes, the event that struck the South Carolina Church was terrible. However, destroying or removing southern symbols, and what they represented should not happen. Let these statues and flags remain, of a reminder of the past, for as a history teacher once said, as a warning, those who forget the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them!

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

Are you referring to this.

Quote

Warner Bros. Bans 'Dukes of Hazzard' Car With Confederate Flag

Decision to halt production on symbol-bearing General Lee comes after online retailers ban Confederate flag merchandise
Following South Carolina Governor Nikki Haley's call to remove the Confederate flag from the state capitol, some of the nation's biggest retailers have similarly promised to stop selling items bearing that symbol. Now, one of pop culture's most visible uses of the Confederate flag – the General Lee, an orange Dodge Charger from the TV series The Dukes of Hazzard – is about to get a makeover. According to Vulture, the lone company that was licensed to reproduce the Confederate flag-branded General Lee as a toy will no longer make that item.
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Warner Bros. Consumer Products (WBCP) is responsible for licensing the rights to Duke of Hazzard merchandise. "Warner Bros. Consumer Products has one licensee producing die-cast replicas and vehicle model kits featuring the General Lee with the confederate flag on its roof — as it was seen in the TV series" a WBCP spokesman said. "We have elected to cease the licensing of these product categories."
However, the General Lee – with its Confederate flag plastered atop its cabin – will continue to have a presence on television, as The Dukes of Hazzard is still popular in syndication, especially on cable network CMT.
Warner Bros.' decision to stop the license on Confederate flag-bearing General Lee replicas comes just days after Walmart, Sears, eBay, Google Shopping and Etsy all announced they would stop selling items that featured the Confederate flag; soon after, Amazon stepped up their efforts to remove all items bearing that symbol on their online marketplace. However, the sudden purge of items branded with the Confederate Flag has also resulted in a sales surge as collectors stock up before that merchandise ultimately becomes unavailable, the New York Times reports.
"We have decided to prohibit Confederate flags and many items containing this image because we believe it has become a contemporary symbol of divisiveness and racism," eBay said in a statement. In the case of Amazon, that company eventually agreed to remove Confederate merchandise after they were barraged social media by users promoting the hashtag #TakeItDown.

http://www.rollingst...e-flag-20150624

Edited by I Zeratul I, 25 June 2015 - 08:57 AM.

[Lunatic_Asylum]

This world needs less political correctness, which has already gone over the border of common sense (do you remember that Mars scientist who was bullied for his shirt, a lot of music bands banned and deported for hurting the feelings of Christians, or a guy who went to court for citing lyrics on Facebook?), and more intellectual thought.

Edited by Lunatic_Asylum, 26 June 2015 - 12:25 AM.

[Kalimaster]

Yes, to some of this is exactly my point. Yes the shooting was horrible, but should that mean I can't watch the Dukes of Hazard just because the General has a flag on it. We stand to loose part of history here. Don't let one individual who was wrapped with hate cause us to loose part of our heritage.

[Mystere]

So, can that Islamic Center now be built right beside ground zero?

[SnagaDance]

Mystere, on 26 June 2015 - 08:46 PM, said:

So, can that Islamic Center now be built right beside ground zero?

Of course. And does Al-Qaida have their own flag like IS? Better hang a few of those around there as well, lest we forget the past and its lessons! Can't imagine why Germany isn't allowing all those nice Swastika flags either, it's like they're trying to forget their past!

[Juodas Varnas]

We live in a society of self-made victims.

[Heffay]

Kalimaster, on 26 June 2015 - 07:18 AM, said:

Yes, to some of this is exactly my point. Yes the shooting was horrible, but should that mean I can't watch the Dukes of Hazard just because the General has a flag on it. We stand to loose part of history here. Don't let one individual who was wrapped with hate cause us to loose part of our heritage.

The Dixie flag isn't your heritage. It's the flag of a failed nation state that promoted slavery over human rights.

If you want to promote your heritage, find one that didn't represent the deaths of something like 600,000 people and slavery. I dunno, how about Whataburger or something. What does the South "represent"?

[Mystere]

SnagaDance, on 27 June 2015 - 01:21 AM, said:

Of course. And does Al-Qaida have their own flag like IS? Better hang a few of those around there as well, lest we forget the past and its lessons! Can't imagine why Germany isn't allowing all those nice Swastika flags either, it's like they're trying to forget their past!

Marack Drock, on 27 June 2015 - 05:50 AM, said:

w
While we are on it lets show off a Soviet Union flag and Stalin's picture lest we forget the 15-30+ million me murdered ...

I could literally go on and on and on but I won't because I don't have time so I will link you this
https://en.wikipedia...ides_in_history

A simple answer of "No" would have sufficed.

While in the latest news ...

[Kalimaster]

Does not matter now. The Demolition Crew has arrived as I am posting this, and will be taking down the statue of a soldier that was erected right after the civil war. Oh well, don't matter. History lost as the sledge hammers go to work.

[Tesunie]

People seem to forget, the Confederate flag did not originally stand for Slavery. Originally, the Union and Confederates broke away from each other (forming their respective groups) due to political reasons. (If I've got my history correct, it was actually about state rights.) Over time, the issue turned to a stronger point against or for slavery, but that wasn't the initial arguments for the conflict, just what the conflict became known for.

Even then, the Confederate flag was not a symbol of hate, and never was intended to be one. To compare it to the {Godwin's Law} emblem, which was created specifically to mean death and destruction is not accurate. (It's base was actually from another era, and if you reversed the {Godwin's Law} emblem it shows it's original root, which meant life and peace. The original emblem was typically displayed on the doorways of houses to bring good life to those inside. Similar to having gargoyles displayed to ward of evil.)

To call the Confederate flag a symbol for hate and racism should be like calling the USA flag the same thing. We've oppressed African Americans our selves (segregation, which was little better, if not worse at times, then slavery). We've also use to not have women with many/any rights, and they could not vote. We've pressed Native Americans into little more than concentration camps at points. The USA has even had our fair share of mass killings. Does this make the flag of the USA into a symbol of oppression and murder? (I certainly hope not.)

I'll agree with the Confederate flag having no proper place on government/public buildings, but to go so far as to try and block it's sale and prevent it's display (even in historical based games) is disrespectful. It disrespects past Americans. Those very Americans who fought on the Confederate side, as they were still Americans then and now. It can be a point of heritage, just like people who display a French flag because they have family roots in that country, or on a grave. (Can insert any country flag here.)

[t Khrist]

Anyone else feel as those this whole thing was already laid out in an episode of South Park?

Isn't was something stands for dependent upon what it currently stands for? I doubt the populations that fall under that flag look up and think "man I'm proud of our oppressive heritage." The majority probably either don't care what's on their flag, or see it as a symbol of what it represents today. The flag isn't touted in the history books as a symbol of slavery, it was a symbol of a nation regardless of that nations policies. Same goes for Swastikas, the symbol was used LONG before the {Godwin's Law}'s ever picked it up, and is still VERY widespread across the world today. No one's offended that the Hindi's have it plastered all over their religious buildings, because for them it means something different, and people understand that they are not {Godwin's Law}'s. Just because the flag was once associated with a pro-slavery nation, doesn't mean it is today. There aren't any Confederate governing bodies today, and everyone knows that. If someone still chooses to have racist thoughts, beliefs, and see symbols that represent such to them, that's their right. It doesn't mean the flag reflects that individuals ideals. I think discussions like this perpetuate cynicism when what society really needs to do is stop sweating the small stuff. The flag may be a reminder of the prejudice black people once faced in this country, but can't it also be a symbol of their triumph? Maybe society should consider improving their outlook before banning something; it seems like less of a hassle.

Edit: I'm fully aware of the issues that take place in our country regarding race. I'm not saying these are to be taken lightly and do need a proper focus. I, like many others, have been appalled by the events that have transpired in the US (and the world) over the last year.

Edited by t Khrist, 27 June 2015 - 10:57 AM.

[Soy]

The most culturally relevant album I've heard in a post Ferguson America is Run The Jewels 2, by Run The Jewels (El-P and Killer Mike):

Killer Mike said:

Fashion slave, you protestin' to get in a ******' look book
Everything I scribble's like an anarchist's cookbook
(Look good, posin' in the centerfold of Crook Book)
Black on black on black with the ski mask, that is my crook look
How you like my stylin' bruh? ain't nobody smilin' bruh
'Bout to turn this ********** up like Riker's Island, bruh
Where my thuggers and my crippers and my blooders and my brothers?
When you ****** gon' unite and kill the police, ***********?
And take over a jail, give them COs hell
The burnin' of the sulfur, goddamn I love the smell
Now get to pillow torchin', where the **** the warden?
And when you find him, we don't kill him, we just waterboard him
We killin' them for freedom cause they tortured us for boredom
And even if some good ones die, **** it, the Lord'll sort 'em

I highly recommend listening critically to the lyrics of this album, it is incredibly insightful. The music is produced by El-P, it's angry, it's aggressive, it has something to say and it's not some moronic rap, this is some of the rawest **** I've heard since gangsta rap days.

The entire album is a free download on their website. So is their entire first album, which is equally good.

[Mystere]

Tesunie, on 27 June 2015 - 08:58 AM, said:

To call the Confederate flag a symbol for hate and racism should be like calling the USA flag the same thing. We've oppressed African Americans our selves (segregation, which was little better, if not worse at times, then slavery). We've also use to not have women with many/any rights, and they could not vote. We've pressed Native Americans into little more than concentration camps at points. The USA has even had our fair share of mass killings. Does this make the flag of the USA into a symbol of oppression and murder? (I certainly hope not.)

I hate to break it to you, but, yes the American flag is indeed seen as such in quite a few places.

[XphR]

Heffay, on 27 June 2015 - 07:53 AM, said:

The Dixie flag isn't your heritage. It's the flag of a failed nation state that promoted slavery over human rights.

If you want to promote your heritage, find one that didn't represent the deaths of something like 600,000 people and slavery. I dunno, how about Whataburger or something. What does the South "represent"?

Some people do indeed fly Wataburger flags.

[Mystere]

Marack Drock, on 28 June 2015 - 07:49 AM, said:

personally I find I have so many issues with the USA atm that I kind of see the flag that way to. And I am a born and naturalized citizen so... I know actually a ton of people who have issues with what this country has done to build itself.

As long as you know and are willing to make the necessary changes ...

[SnagaDance]

Mystere, on 27 June 2015 - 08:21 AM, said:

A simple answer of "No" would have sufficed.

While in the latest news ...

Actually I was agreeing with your post and was just heaping on some more 'fine examples' that were in the same vein. But the smiley I used to enforce the idiocy of my own words could easily have been seen by you as a sarcastic addition to mock your post. Especially because I didn't 'like' your post in advance. Fixed that now.

[Tesunie]

Marack Drock, on 28 June 2015 - 11:01 AM, said:

Doesn't need to be displayed anywhere.

Graveyards of Confederate Soldiers?

[Void Angel]

Tesunie, on 27 June 2015 - 08:58 AM, said:

(If I've got my history correct, it was actually about state rights.) Over time, the issue turned to a stronger point against or for slavery, but that wasn't the initial arguments for the conflict, just what the conflict became known for.

Sort of; it's technically accurate to characterize the War Between the States as a conflict over states' rights - but the primary right under contention was that of slavery. Still, even that may be too simplistic. Slavery was embedded in the overall socio-economic philosophy of the Southern States, but there were other, non-slavery issues at play. Essentially, the South produced most of the textiles, while the North had more manufacturing, much of the food production - and more people. The North also had more States, which created a situation where the South could be (and was) overruled by the North whenever the South's interests conflicted with the needs and desires of the North. With slavery mixed inextricably into the industries (notably cotton) upon which the South relied, they viewed restrictions on slavery to be a threat to their economy and way of life. The expansion of slavery into U.S Territories (and thus into subsequent States) became a contentious issue: the Republican Party of the day was determined to prevent the expansion of slavery - and when their candidate, Abraham Lincoln, was elected in 1860, the Southern States began to secede. The Confederacy assumed that the powers of Europe would intervene on their behalf because of their dependency on Southern cotton - but the drawbacks of going to war with the North, combined with the political fallout of the Emancipation Proclamation, deterred European intervention and sealed the fate of the South.

Tesunie, on 27 June 2015 - 08:58 AM, said:

Even then, the Confederate flag was not a symbol of hate, and never was intended to be one. To compare it to the {Godwin's Law} emblem, which was created specifically to mean death and destruction is not accurate. (It's base was actually from another era, and if you reversed the {Godwin's Law} emblem it shows it's original root, which meant life and peace. The original emblem was typically displayed on the doorways of houses to bring good life to those inside. Similar to having gargoyles displayed to ward of evil.)

To call the Confederate flag a symbol for hate and racism should be like calling the USA flag the same thing. We've oppressed African Americans our selves (segregation, which was little better, if not worse at times, then slavery). We've also use to not have women with many/any rights, and they could not vote. We've pressed Native Americans into little more than concentration camps at points. The USA has even had our fair share of mass killings. Does this make the flag of the USA into a symbol of oppression and murder? (I certainly hope not.)

There has been evil done in the name of that flag - but it does not follow that the Flag of the United States represents evil. On the contrary, it represents an ideology that we have not always followed; a dream of which we have not always been worthy. Comparing it to the Nationalist Socialist Party of WWII Germany is a disservice indicative of ignorance.

In any case, while slavery was indeed a central cause of the strife leading up to the War, the Confederate Flag is seen by many who fly it as a symbol of States' sovereignty rather than of slavery. I'm from Oregon, so I'm as free of the cultural baggage from the War as any native son can be - but it still seems to me that insisting on the association with slavery and tearing down monuments to States' rights is wrongheaded.

PS: Marack, the Hitlerite Germans were deliberately destroying the Jewish population - the Confederacy wanted to keep their slaves alive and working. It was not a thing of sweetness and light, but to claim that the former was indistinguishable from the latter is asinine.

Edited by Void Angel, 28 June 2015 - 04:13 PM.

[Void Angel]

Again, you're using overgeneralizations to make your point - you also don't understand the mindset of the Confederate Army. In reality, the treatment of American slaves, while never good, varied by time, place, and circumstance - particularly after the international market dried up in 1820. So, no, they couldn't just "buy another slave," and there really was a qualitative difference between the plantations and the death camps.
But you think you know falsehoods, and there's obviously little point in attempting to dissuade you.

Edited by Void Angel, 28 June 2015 - 04:27 PM.