27 replies to this topic

[Sader325]

My favorite playstyle revolves heavily on taking my mech (Lone wolf style) and maneuvering behind my enemy. Eventually taking down atleast 2 or 3 mechs by myself. I fit close range, use a fast heavy (timberwolf/maddog) and lay the smack down on anyone i find lagging behind alone.

Why are so many of the CW maps designed to force you into line of sight of long range snipers? Hell even if you do manage to get in and sneak around the base you'll probably get ***** by laser turrets anyway.

Can we please get more dynamic ways of entering a base rather than simply walking through the open gate?

I literally start wishing for nothing but counter-attack maps so I can actually flank, but many maps are designed that if you decide to take the other gate to flank you'll end up traveling for days and the fight will be long over.

This isn't league of legends, we don't have creeps. Why do we have lanes?

*EDIT*

Also, while i understand trolling is a possibility. Getting rid of 90% of the out of bounds areas (that don't make any ******* sense in some maps (Grim portico anyone?) would do a lot to fix this issue.

Edited by Sader325, 28 June 2015 - 10:37 AM.

[Karamarka]

I agree.

There is WAY too many bottle necks in the maps.

The gates are fine, but everywhere else behind the gates is just twisting canyons.

That's why i like those big bases and maps in MW4 for instance. Really cool massive cities + open areas.

[Vxheous]

Sader325, on 28 June 2015 - 10:34 AM, said:

My favorite playstyle revolves heavily on taking my mech (Lone wolf style) and maneuvering behind my enemy.

If you are attempting to flank by yourself, you are doing it wrong. There are actually many places to flank in CW, but your team has to be coordinated enough to make it through the gates first.

[Mystere]

You're attacking a base. A good base designer needs to make sure all avenues of approach are covered by the defenders.

In other words, bases in CW need to be much harder to attack. And as a balancing measure, the attackers should have the advantage in numbers.

[Tycon]

Couldn't agree more, a lot of the direct fire alpha meta and established tactics just work so well when you have to rush a long narrow passage where every one knows where the majority of mechs are charging from (especially with a single light as a scout).

Team work is important but having large maps and more movement options would do wonders for tactics besides hide and seek trade poking and 12 man charging, allowing more ways to flank and liven up the meta would help for CW.

While its important for the inner sanctum of the defenders to be fortified and have good positioning, long, narrow DOTA style lanes for the entire map funnel combat way to much. In addition to minor match making improvements (nothing major), just expanding the maps and changing the amount of movement options as well as cover options would help LRMs, flanking builds, brawling builds and sniper. It's kind of disappointing that every one puts full front armor on since aside from certain passages, most fighting takes place front to front several hundred meters apart. This would be a great fix to buffing the under utilized builds without directly buffing them. Cw is like Alpine peaks but much narrower... a terrible game for a lot of builds.

On the sake of Clan vs IS balance, allowing more options to close the distance with larger maps and more cover would help negate the clan range advantage on the static huge narrow sniper maps. Granted some maps might favor IS if they encourage heavy brawling (such as a Viridian Bog style map with cover every where and tight corners where most combat takes place) but the current map pool tends to favor Clan play. I imagine most people find clans to be the better faction because the maps encourage matches to play to clans strength. Clans excel in range, alpha damage and xl engine sustainability (great for long range pokes) where as IS excel with standard engines for close brawling, auto cannons, customization and close range weaponry (less heat and specialize up close). While each faction has pros and cons, the current CW maps don't allow IS to capitalize on their strengths. (This does ignore certain power disparity exceptions to the general rule for each side such as the daka wolf dps out put, the stalker 4n long range damage out put, the grid iron for range combat, the storm crow for close range, ect.)

If you keep the current maps the way they are, at least make some new maps that are wider and smaller that allow people to make load outs according to the planet and terrain they are attacking. It's pretty hard for me to believe that every single base on every planet happens to be stationed in a narrow valley with 3 lanes with the only difference being snow or desert for the back ground.

Edited by Tycon, 28 June 2015 - 09:42 PM.

[Mordin Ashe]

Open field maps aren't the issue. Remember when Clans had the range advantage? We were firing lasers on 1k distance for reduced damage and got ERPPCs from heavily quirked Mechs, also for reduced damage. But if you measure the distances on all open maps this kind of worked. Each side could do something in long distance firefights but they didn't neccessarily decide who wins and who loses.

Now when almsot every IS CW-viable Mech can take extremely quirked ERLL, fire three of them with almost 1k optimal range the balance of LR fighting has been smashed. Clans now have only one way of winning and that is get into hiding and brawl it out. You can't be a solo sniper/flanker when there are enemy Mechs that can rip you to shreds for 50% damage penalty at 1300m or so. Overquirked IS Mechs are the problem, not map design. Clans don't have hardpoints like Stalkers or Thunderbolts and nor do we have speed of Ravens. Doing what OP suggests almost seems like role purely for IS Mechs.

[Anjian]

Sader325, on 28 June 2015 - 10:34 AM, said:

My favorite playstyle revolves heavily on taking my mech (Lone wolf style) and maneuvering behind my enemy. Eventually taking down atleast 2 or 3 mechs by myself. I fit close range, use a fast heavy (timberwolf/maddog) and lay the smack down on anyone i find lagging behind alone.

Why are so many of the CW maps designed to force you into line of sight of long range snipers? Hell even if you do manage to get in and sneak around the base you'll probably get ***** by laser turrets anyway.

Can we please get more dynamic ways of entering a base rather than simply walking through the open gate?

I literally start wishing for nothing but counter-attack maps so I can actually flank, but many maps are designed that if you decide to take the other gate to flank you'll end up traveling for days and the fight will be long over.

This isn't league of legends, we don't have creeps. Why do we have lanes?

*EDIT*

Also, while i understand trolling is a possibility. Getting rid of 90% of the out of bounds areas (that don't make any ******* sense in some maps (Grim portico anyone?) would do a lot to fix this issue.

We got maps from LoL and tactics from Total War.



By the way, being a loner is a great way to get killed fast in CW.

There are flanking moves in CW, usually in the attack, once the team goes through the gate. Its actually quite evident on Sulferous (alpha gate), Boreas, Portico, Taiga and Vitric. The attacking teams crawl along the sides. Hellespore is the exception.

Edited by Anjian, 29 June 2015 - 01:21 AM.

[Sader325]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 28 June 2015 - 06:55 PM, said:

If you are attempting to flank by yourself, you are doing it wrong. There are actually many places to flank in CW, but your team has to be coordinated enough to make it through the gates first.

Wrong, when I my mechs all do between to 9 - 12 sustained dps with 25 - 33 dps burst. I build mechs that are meant to delete my target as quickly as possible. I rarely if ever go down without taking someone with me, and often take at least two.

[Felix7007]

This is all I ever post about any more. OP is absolutely right.

[Revis Volek]

Because we have DOTA maps and no Role warfare....So its just shoot em up.


Its essentially hack and slash but with FPS and mechs.

[Lyoto Machida]

DarthRevis, on 29 June 2015 - 11:12 AM, said:

Because we have DOTA maps and no Role warfare....So its just shoot em up.


Its essentially hack and slash but with FPS and mechs.

So where are all the CoD kids to fill up the player count?

[BSK]

Interestingly you can use flanking in a very great way on almost every CW map. But you risk too much letting a lance of your team going on their own.

[Kin3ticX]

If we had wide open maps ERLL would be on every mech. Back when rotation was Boreal+Sulfurous we had heavy usage of ERLL because it worked well on Boreal. Now its more LPL, LL, and ERML with some close in mechs in the mix due to emerald, grim, and vitric. Not everyone keeps more than 4-mechs cfg'd and moduled for CW.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 30 June 2015 - 02:31 AM.

[Varvar86]

Finally!! You saw the light of truth!
I just "ctrl v" it here. If more ppl will see the problem in map architecture, than problem will be highlighted again more often , and maybe we will fix this mode together by screaming it into PGI ears.. someday....

Maps designed for FPS, not for MechWarrior.

Line based maps provides strong concentration of “no brain” action. All “super advanced secret tactics” are actually : run tight 12 man groups – all shoot the same target – repeat – profit. This is bad from the ground. Planned for action, and build without any fantasy for limited action only. Yes design are good , but the basis, the core and idea, are broken. This broken core gave us:

1- stomping, because maps are BUILD for no brakes 12-man trains running through the tunnels of death

2 – limited brainless tactics, because maps are BUILD to limit ppl maneuvers

3 – camping, because maps are BUILD in lines and/or with "bottle necks" keypoints, so where is no other way to flank, camping is inevitable

4- spawn ******, because maps are BUILD such way that spawning ppl has 3 limited wall on their backs and sides, and got only 2 exits in 1 direction – spawn ****** is OBVIOUS to exist.

This is not community problem. People are FORCED to play in such environment. And this environment DICATES limited variant of behavior.

Would you camp same place forever on round based “Canyon network” or “Caustic valley”, if there Lots of ways for you being flanked and shot from your back? - no, you wont, other way you will lose. That’s the example, how environment can change ppl’s behavior.

Get rid of “sausage” design maps - and all CW demons will gone.

Edited by Varvar86, 30 June 2015 - 03:18 AM.

[mania3c]

Lyoto Machida, on 29 June 2015 - 10:44 PM, said:

So where are all the CoD kids to fill up the player count?

In better CoD like games...like in CoD for example..

I have to agree with OP..every single CW map is really bad... Like they had awesome opportunity to make dropsship mode unique..instead we have even more brain-dead maps like we had before...TBH, many quick game maps are really decent and some even well made for the "quick match" purpose..

Dropship mode maps could be so much more...instead we have one dimensional clusterfak

[Vellron2005]

Sader325, on 28 June 2015 - 10:34 AM, said:

My favorite playstyle revolves heavily on taking my mech (Lone wolf style) and maneuvering behind my enemy. Eventually taking down atleast 2 or 3 mechs by myself. I fit close range, use a fast heavy (timberwolf/maddog) and lay the smack down on anyone i find lagging behind alone.

Why are so many of the CW maps designed to force you into line of sight of long range snipers? Hell even if you do manage to get in and sneak around the base you'll probably get ***** by laser turrets anyway.

Can we please get more dynamic ways of entering a base rather than simply walking through the open gate?

I literally start wishing for nothing but counter-attack maps so I can actually flank, but many maps are designed that if you decide to take the other gate to flank you'll end up traveling for days and the fight will be long over.

This isn't league of legends, we don't have creeps. Why do we have lanes?

*EDIT*

Also, while i understand trolling is a possibility. Getting rid of 90% of the out of bounds areas (that don't make any ******* sense in some maps (Grim portico anyone?) would do a lot to fix this issue.

Here's why:

Imagine you actually ARE in the battletech universe, you are building a base and you have to keep in mind that big stompy robots might come and attack it at some point.

As a base designer - NO I WILL NOT give you clear paths to flank me, to take my stuff and kill my people.

As a military officer - NO I WILL NOT give you clear paths to flank me, to take my stuff and kill my people

As a player - Still NO.

Work for that kill. No shortcuts, no work arrounds, no easy kills. Not for you. Get off my planet. Or stay forever.

Keeping all of this in mind, as a game designer... Why should they let you flank in CW? That is not the point of CW. That's what pug drops (where flanking is a common tactic) is for..

CW is for advanced tactics, heroic warriors and people who work and bleed mecha blood for every foot of the map.

Learn it, live it, love it.. or go play PUG drops in the solo ques.

Edited by Vellron2005, 02 July 2015 - 02:04 AM.

[DaisuSaikoro Nagasawa]

Sader325, on 29 June 2015 - 09:33 AM, said:

Wrong, when I my mechs all do between to 9 - 12 sustained dps with 25 - 33 dps burst. I build mechs that are meant to delete my target as quickly as possible. I rarely if ever go down without taking someone with me, and often take at least two.

"Wrong"

That's pretentious. It works in solo drops, less so in group queue, and even less so in CW.

People have seismic, teamwork, coms, buddy work, etc. Taking 1 or 2 mechs down in CW doesn't mean as much when there are 48 mechs on the field.

(Are you referring to your style in solo drops. Are you in a team for CW?)

[Tuis Ryche]

Oh, don't go into "good base design" because these bases don't have it, except for Boreal when clans are defending it with its great long-range sight lines and clan long-range laz0r vomit.

Besides, "good base design" in this game relies heavily on arbitrary out-of-bounds lines that autokill mechs.

[Lyoto Machida]

Vellron2005, on 02 July 2015 - 02:03 AM, said:

Here's why:

Imagine you actually ARE in the battletech universe, you are building a base and you have to keep in mind that big stompy robots might come and attack it at some point.

As a base designer - NO I WILL NOT give you clear paths to flank me, to take my stuff and kill my people.

As a military officer - NO I WILL NOT give you clear paths to flank me, to take my stuff and kill my people

As a player - Still NO.

Work for that kill. No shortcuts, no work arrounds, no easy kills. Not for you. Get off my planet. Or stay forever.

Keeping all of this in mind, as a game designer... Why should they let you flank in CW? That is not the point of CW. That's what pug drops (where flanking is a common tactic) is for..

CW is for advanced tactics, heroic warriors and people who work and bleed mecha blood for every foot of the map.

Learn it, live it, love it.. or go play PUG drops in the solo ques.

So basically CW in this Battletech incarnation is essentially take out the orbital gun and we take the whole planet at this point. Rinse and repeat enough times for victory before the ceasefire. Very intricate gameplay and super immersive.

I hope this lance on lance thing they're adding whenever makes things more interesting and it better not be disable/defend the gun with only a lance (4 waves) on each side.

[Vellron2005]

Lyoto Machida, on 02 July 2015 - 11:03 PM, said:

So basically CW in this Battletech incarnation is essentially take out the orbital gun and we take the whole planet at this point. Rinse and repeat enough times for victory before the ceasefire. Very intricate gameplay and super immersive.

I hope this lance on lance thing they're adding whenever makes things more interesting and it better not be disable/defend the gun with only a lance (4 waves) on each side.

Well nobody said it was perfect, and we all know that CW needs more game modes, and alot more work.

I just said that the maps were designed with battle logic and BT realism in mind, while still being arena-like. So no flanking lanes..