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Suggested Is Starter Mech Progression


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#1 zagibu

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Posted 23 July 2015 - 10:20 AM

I recently tried to get another friend into MWO (and failed, but let's not talk about that), and the point of which own mechs to get eventually came up. I have suggested the current top mechs, but now that I think about it, this didn't make a lot of sense.

New players are mostly C-Bill starved. Which means they should buy mechs that aren't only good, but that also come along with useful equipment they can reuse on new mechs they buy. Which means they should start with a mech that has a lot of different variants.

Which is why I thought of the Hunchback at first. It comes with variants that feature big cannons, short and long range missiles, and of course, lots of medium lasers. Also, their standard loadouts don't need a lot of changes, in my opinion. It's not like with Centurions, where ripping out the LRM10 launcher will probably be the first thing you do after buying any variant. All the Hunchbacks really need are minor equipment changes, a bigger engine, and of course DHS. Some variants can also profit from endo steel structure and ferro fibrous. Another plus is that most builds won't require an XL engine (which are expensive).

All these things considered, the Hunchback should be one, if not THE most affordable mech to master. And one of the most fun as well, because you don't have to grind three variants that all play the same.

So, here are my suggested IS starter mechs (with suggested build progression). You don't have to do all the listed upgrades of a variant completely, before you buy the next one, some players like to switch mechs often to keep gameplay more interesting.
Also keep in mind that you can't progress in skill efficiencies before you have unlocked all basic efficiencies on three variants. Once you unlock all elite efficiencies on a mech, the basic efficiencies get doubled in value, which has a noticeable impact on performance. This is why you should always at least unlock the basic efficiencies of three variants on all mechs.

Note that when you do an engine upgrade, you can probably sell the STD 200 engine afterwards (maybe keep 1 for an exotic build you wanna try sometime). This should shorten the grind for the rest of the upgrades a bit. You can also sell it before buying the bigger engine, but make sure you have enough money to do the upgrade, or you will end up with a useless mech and will have to grind the missing C-Bills with trial mechs.

HBK-4SP
1 DHS
2 STD 275 Engine
3 Endo Steel Structure
4 Ferro Fibrous Armor
The 4SP is a close range brawler. It's a good starter mech in my opinion, because it moves at a decent pace (after engine upgrade), has a compact profile, and medium lasers as basic easy mode fallback weapons, with SRMs added as good practice for aiming ahead, which can be put to good use with other weapons like ACs and PPCs later. You also can't alpha every time, or you'll overheat quickly, which means you have to learn how to assign and effectively use different weapon groups. It doesn't have long range weapons, which means you have to learn to move with the group and to flank the enemy.

HBK-4G
1 DHS
2 Endo Steel Structure
3 STD 250 Engine
4 Ferro Fibrous Armor
The 4G is another close range brawler in the standard setup. It plays differently than the 4SP, though, because most of your firepower is concentrated in the hardest hitting weapon in MWO, the AC/20. If you miss your shots with that baby, you will end up at the bottom of the score list at the end of the match. The cannon has a very high mount, which lets you peek above hills and get off a surprise 20 dmg before they even notice you. Unfortunately, the right torso, where the cannon is mounted, is incredibly huge, and thus a big target. This means that you will have to learn to twist it out of incoming damage, after you've gotten your shot off, or the enemy will focus it and render you mostly harmless in no time.

HBK-4J
1 DHS
2 STD 250 Engine
3 Endo Steel Structure
4 Ferro Fibrous Armor
5 Artemis IV (optional)
Finally, we have the 4J, which is basically an indirect fire support mech (think artillery in other games). It is best played as a skirmisher, moving in the second row on the flanks of the enemy. Because of the relatively high speed for an LRM platform, you can pick your targets and move yourself into favorable positions. If you go alone in this mech, you quickly end up as tasty fodder for lights. LRMs are kind of hit or miss in this game, if there isn't much enemy ECM up, you can rack up top damage on some maps, but nowadays with ECM so prevalent, it's hard to make it work consistently. Nevertheless, it's a good first experience with an LRM centric mech, and if you don't like the playstyle at all, you can find out here for pretty cheap.

The HBK-4P is also worth a mention. It's basically a 4G that trades the AC/20 for 6 more medium lasers, all crammed into the huge right torso. It plays similar to the 4G, but can't twist as effectively, because of the burn time of the lasers. But it doesn't run out of ammo, so it can sometimes shine in later stages of the game. The heat produced by 8-9 medium lasers shouldn't be underestimated, though, and on hot maps, you will quickly overheat when you fire more than half of those in a single salvo. Weapon groups help a lot with that.

The HBK-4H is a bit outshined by the 4G, in my opinion. It has a longer range, less reliance on ammo and runs a bit cooler, but although it has the same firepower on paper, it is spread out over multiple weapons with different cooldowns and burn time, so it's harder to apply the same damage in the same time. It can mimic the same AC/20 build the 4G is famous for, but it doesn't have the AC/20 specific quirks, so that's not a good choice either. Let me know if you find a good role for the 4H that isn't already done equally well or better by another variant.

I only mentioned the standard builds in this thread, but of course, you can outfit your Hunchbacks with different stuff as well. Try some PPCs in the 4Ps shoulder mount if you wanna get a taste of long range fire support, or maybe dual AC/5 on the 4G. But keep in mind that the Hunchbacks are quirked for the standard loadouts, so you will probably have most success if you stick with it.

Edited by zagibu, 14 November 2015 - 05:59 AM.


#2 Shadey99

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Posted 23 July 2015 - 01:31 PM

Personally I'd suggest people start with a light... Both because they are cheaper and because at least some of them are extremely effective with a variety of builds. I was a tad stupid at first and bought a Catapult first (three years ago now) and then couldn't afford the other two, so I grabbed Spiders... I then mastered Spiders before going back and buying three more Catapults so I could master them.

Another option are the ubiquitous 55 tonners... Any of which will do, though the Griffin and Wolverine are probably better options than the Shadowhawks these days...

#3 Ponyboy

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Posted 23 July 2015 - 01:43 PM

I'd suggest to start with a heavy mech, you get the best mix of firepower, mobility and armor. You can't go wrong with a Thunderbolt, Jaegermech or Cataphract - probably in that order.

#4 jss78

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Posted 23 July 2015 - 02:34 PM

I like the suggestion of an STD-engined medium. First, they're cheap, so the player won't commit 10+ million c-bills when he really cannot know what kind of a mech is ultimately his style. Second, they're relatively forgiving, in having speed to relocate, and in having some endurance under fire.

Maybe some STD-engined heavies fit that description (cheap, not too slow, rugged) also. But I think I probably wouldn't recommend the Jagermech. First, they tend to require XL engines, which makes them very expensive. And due to the XL engine they tend to be quite glassy -- and yet they are not quick enough to escape. They're as reliant on good positioning and situational awareness as assaults, but won't last half as long when you fail with the previous, which makes them very unforgiving.

There'll probably be differing opinions on this, but I'd also divert novices to lights or mediums because all things being equal, the heavier mechs are expected to carry a bit more. And thus I'd rather have the novice learn the ropes in something other than the company's King Crab -- in my experience the team is better able to cover for a relatively ineffective Hunchback than for an equally ineffective 100-tonner.

Edited by jss78, 23 July 2015 - 02:38 PM.


#5 zagibu

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Posted 24 July 2015 - 03:00 AM

View PostShadey99, on 23 July 2015 - 01:31 PM, said:

Personally I'd suggest people start with a light... Both because they are cheaper and because at least some of them are extremely effective with a variety of builds.


The problem with lights is that you can't really use any equipment you get with them on your future mechs. Also, they all need XL engines to shine, which pushes their price up right into the mediums with STD engine category. And lastly, most light mechs have pretty uniform variants, which are a chore to level.

View PostPonyboy, on 23 July 2015 - 01:43 PM, said:

I'd suggest to start with a heavy mech, you get the best mix of firepower, mobility and armor. You can't go wrong with a Thunderbolt, Jaegermech or Cataphract - probably in that order.


Heavy mechs like the ones you suggested are really painful to play without upgrades. They are slow, hot and don't bring a lot of firepower. Once upgraded, I agree, they are more forgiving to play than mediums. But they also tend to be locked into a role more than the suggested Hunchback. Jagers are all fire support mechs (the A can do LRMs, and some can try to brawl, but they are a bit slow and squishy for that), the Thunderbolt is very laser-centric and the Cataphract is a direct fire support mech or a brawler. Also, they cost a lot in comparison. The HBK-4SP is almost finished with 6.6M C-Bills, but to get e.g. a useful 3xUAC/5 Jagermech, you have to pay 5 millions more. That's already three quarters of the next Hunchback.

Edited by zagibu, 24 July 2015 - 03:15 AM.


#6 Shadey99

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Posted 24 July 2015 - 03:32 AM

View Postzagibu, on 24 July 2015 - 03:00 AM, said:

The problem with lights is that you can't really use any equipment you get with them on your future mechs. Also, they all need XL engines to shine, which pushes their price up right into the mediums with STD engine category. And lastly, most light mechs have pretty uniform variants, which are a chore to level.


I'd tend to suggest the Raven these days... Due to quirks for a variety of systems at once and a full range of weapon hardpoints, they can do just about anything you may want. Heavy ballistics? Yep. Missile support? Sure. Lasers? Very much so. Short range brawler? Why yes. Long range sniper? Yes. Can it offer ECM? Yus. Has jump jets? Si.

It also can use engines like the 255s and 300s both of which are used in a variety of other medium and even heavy builds as well as other lights. You can also use standards in them, especially if you go for up close builds with MLs and SRMs.

And really all fully remastered mechs end up running between 10-15 million c-bills (A few Assaults can hit 20 mil). As someone who has mastered 75% of mechs in game I can tell you just about everything ends up being expensive when you've paid the 1.5 mil tax for DHS, another 250-500k for Endo, and changed the weapons load around. And that is without even factoring in having to buy a new engine if you should want to max out speed over what that mech starts with or just because it optimizes the build you want.

#7 zagibu

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Posted 24 July 2015 - 03:46 AM

View PostShadey99, on 24 July 2015 - 03:32 AM, said:


I'd tend to suggest the Raven these days... Due to quirks for a variety of systems at once and a full range of weapon hardpoints, they can do just about anything you may want. Heavy ballistics? Yep. Missile support? Sure. Lasers? Very much so. Short range brawler? Why yes. Long range sniper? Yes. Can it offer ECM? Yus. Has jump jets? Si.

It also can use engines like the 255s and 300s both of which are used in a variety of other medium and even heavy builds as well as other lights. You can also use standards in them, especially if you go for up close builds with MLs and SRMs.

And really all fully remastered mechs end up running between 10-15 million c-bills (A few Assaults can hit 20 mil). As someone who has mastered 75% of mechs in game I can tell you just about everything ends up being expensive when you've paid the 1.5 mil tax for DHS, another 250-500k for Endo, and changed the weapons load around. And that is without even factoring in having to buy a new engine if you should want to max out speed over what that mech starts with or just because it optimizes the build you want.

Only the Huginn can run a 300 rated engine, rest of the Ravens are capped at 275 or 295. And please do link a Raven build that does "heavy ballistics", because I don't think a 35 tons mech can do better than maybe 1 AC/10 with about 3 tons of ammo and no backup weapons. LRMs are also a bit meh on the Raven in my opinion, not enough hardpoints to do more than 2 LRM5 and not enough tonnage to do bigger launchers with enough ammo.

And no, fully upgraded Hunchbacks don't cost 10M. They cost below 8M. Meanwhile, the classic 2xERLL ECM sniper Raven costs over 13M because of the XL295 engine.

#8 Zookeeper Dan

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Posted 24 July 2015 - 04:32 AM

I like your suggestions. Especially for the criteria of cheap (std engines) with a lot of variety.

I went with Shadow Hawks for the same reason of a variety of builds, but they are more expensive because of the XL engines. I wound up buying the (C) when it was on sale for the XL 255 and then grinding to buy other mechs on sale just for the XL275 and XL300 engines. Although you could buy one XL and swap it between 3 varients.

The other reason I went with Shadow Hawks was for the jump jets.

If only there was a Hunchback with jump jets... (checks date that IIC comes out)

#9 Elizander

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Posted 25 July 2015 - 12:40 PM

New players should start with a few DHS discount tickets or at least 1 free DHS upgrade ticket. Maybe throw in an Endo upgrade ticket.

Give them a free 250 STD engine and a 255XL somewhere along the line and one 300XL later on.

Start them off with a free training ML CD/range modules and several free consumable modules and maybe one capture module and one advanced zoom module just so they have an idea on what to put in their mechs. The modules can be unlocked via tutorial and purchase for free via tutorial or can be TRN (traininng) versions like LTD.

A tutorial should handhold a player through a full mech construction session even if it's teaching them how to create a new one. Teach them to make an upgraded 4P/4G/4SP (whichever you want) from basic stock variant to upgraded meta/champion version.

1) Go to mechlab
2) Clicky here
3) Add engine
4) Add armor (front/back etc)
5) Add weapons
6) Add equipment
7) Add modules (see below for skill unlock tutorial)
8) Add camospec (give them a free newbie camo and an extra color)

The tutorial should walk the player through everything, perhaps constructing a starter mech (HBK maybe?).

Another part of the tutorial could be about mastering mechs. Teach the player about the menus for skills, pretend they have 3 mechs in basic so that they can be taught how to elite a chassis and master it. Teach them about the unlocked module slot.

Teach them about pilot skills. Give them GXP during the tutorial that will force them to buy specific module unlocks then free C-bills that will make them purchase it then move to construction so that it can be installed on the mech.

All these should be locking out other options with flashing arrows on what they should press.

Once they go through this tutorial they can keep the mech, modules, that cheap camo and extra color and some engines/weapons whatever.

Then we'll have something to actually start the NPE with and the newbie gets some tools and knowledge to not drown in puglandia.

PS:

If that sounded like a lot of work then guess what? You need to do another one of those for the clans. Just start them off in a Nova.

Some features of the game should also be locked or some actions prevented or heavily warned against until the pilot is done with cadet bonuses such as selling engines, equipment, mechs etc so they don't shoot themselves in the foot.

Edited by Elizander, 25 July 2015 - 12:45 PM.


#10 zagibu

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Posted 07 August 2015 - 02:45 AM

View PostDanth Reduviid, on 24 July 2015 - 04:32 AM, said:

I like your suggestions. Especially for the criteria of cheap (std engines) with a lot of variety.

I went with Shadow Hawks for the same reason of a variety of builds, but they are more expensive because of the XL engines. I wound up buying the (C) when it was on sale for the XL 255 and then grinding to buy other mechs on sale just for the XL275 and XL300 engines. Although you could buy one XL and swap it between 3 varients.

The other reason I went with Shadow Hawks was for the jump jets.

If only there was a Hunchback with jump jets... (checks date that IIC comes out)


Yeah, I think the Shadowhawk could be a good starter mech, too. It's difference to the Hunchback is that the variants are less specialized, and that it has jump jets. Maybe it would make a good tutorial mech that is unlocked right from the start.

#11 Rhavin

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Posted 07 August 2015 - 05:05 AM

I have always thought that a new player should be awarded a chassis at the completion of their bonus cbill matches. Allow the player to choose a weight class and then give them One random IS mech chassis from that group, maybe a non-champ version of the current trial mechs at that time. Call it the SVG variant (SalVaGe) and make it like the loyalty mechs, unsellable so you can't game the system for cbills. Give it a custom paint job as well and make new players feel rewarded and more likely to stick around and play more than 25 matches.

#12 Fubbit

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Posted 08 August 2015 - 08:00 AM

I agree with the hunchbacks.
Definitely keep the 4g and 4j (as they really represent very different play-styles).

I might recommend a 4P instead of the 4SP to feature a ammo-less build, but both make sense to me.

#13 Escef

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Posted 08 August 2015 - 04:24 PM

I tend to steer new players towards the Shadowhawks. Especially the 2D or 2D2. They're very versatile, so even if you don't like the build you end up using, you can strip it down and rebuild for another purpose.

#14 zagibu

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Posted 14 November 2015 - 06:16 AM

View PostEscef, on 08 August 2015 - 04:24 PM, said:

I tend to steer new players towards the Shadowhawks. Especially the 2D or 2D2. They're very versatile, so even if you don't like the build you end up using, you can strip it down and rebuild for another purpose.


They do versatility different than Hunchbacks, though. With the exception of the 2K, they are all very similar, and don't seem to focus on any particular playstyle. Sure, you can equip them differently and try to mimick the Hunchback's variation, but because their lack of focus on any specific role, they tend to do them all worse than the Hunchbacks. Jacks of all trades, masters of none.

They are also a little more expensive than the Hunchbacks. But they have jumpjets, which is something the Hunchbacks lack.

Do you have suggestions for starting loadouts for three SHD variants?

#15 Escef

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Posted 14 November 2015 - 07:09 AM

View Postzagibu, on 14 November 2015 - 06:16 AM, said:

Do you have suggestions for starting loadouts for three SHD variants?


Not in particular. The reason why I steer newer players towards SHDs is because most of the individual chassis are versatile, whereas most of the Hunchies are only good for 1 or 2 things.

You take a 2D2, for example. You want LRMs? You can do 2xLRM10+2xLRM5 quite comfortably, along with 2xMPL, some jets, and a 300XL. AC20? That, 2xML, 1xJJ, 275 standard engine, spring for ferro armor. SRMs? Take the LRM build, swap to SRMs, and add some heat sinks (SRM22 and 2xMPL is nasty). Long range direct fire? Take the AC20 build, swap to a Gauss. Don't like Gauss? AC5/10 with PPCs and jets works as a pocket jump sniper.

You can do everything I said above on the SHD-2D2. That ONE mech has almost as much versatility as the entire line of Hunchbacks. I tell new players to go Shadowhawk because they can strip it down and try something new without buying an entirely new chassis. Clan side, the Stormcrow fills a similar role, though with no jets (and I just can't recommend the Nova for new players, the hitboxes are too unforgiving).

#16 zagibu

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Posted 14 November 2015 - 07:26 AM

View PostEscef, on 14 November 2015 - 07:09 AM, said:

You can do everything I said above on the SHD-2D2. That ONE mech has almost as much versatility as the entire line of Hunchbacks. I tell new players to go Shadowhawk because they can strip it down and try something new without buying an entirely new chassis. Clan side, the Stormcrow fills a similar role, though with no jets (and I just can't recommend the Nova for new players, the hitboxes are too unforgiving).


Yes, but you will have to buy 2 more Shadowhawks to get Elite skills. And they, too, can do almost everything.

I guess if people don't mind a bit of boring grinding, they can go Shadowhawk and sell the other two variants to get 2-3M cbills back and then just use the one elited variant and change loadout frequently. That should be even cheaper than the Hunchback progression, because you can omit the endo and DHS upgrades on the variants you are going to sell.

#17 Escef

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Posted 14 November 2015 - 07:52 AM

View Postzagibu, on 14 November 2015 - 07:26 AM, said:


Yes, but you will have to buy 2 more Shadowhawks to get Elite skills. And they, too, can do almost everything.

I guess if people don't mind a bit of boring grinding, they can go Shadowhawk and sell the other two variants to get 2-3M cbills back and then just use the one elited variant and change loadout frequently. That should be even cheaper than the Hunchback progression, because you can omit the endo and DHS upgrades on the variants you are going to sell.


Or, you can tell the new player that in order to try something new he has to grind away some more, either with a mech he decided he doesn't like or with trials. A casual/new player will get more mileage out of a Shadowhawk. Keep in mind that those of us that play the game enough to buy new mechs every week or two with c-bills are the exception.

#18 Zookeeper Dan

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Posted 14 November 2015 - 07:17 PM

It looks like Shadow Hawks will be better after the new quirk changes while the Hunchbacks will be slightly worse.

In particular the 2H is getting some great balistic, movement, and structure buffs.

Mech 1: Ballistics Focused 2H with 2 AC 5's or 3 AC2's, XL engine, 2 JJ's, backup weapons of your choice

Mech 2: Laser Focused 2K with 3 LL's, 2 JJ's, runs well with a STD or XL, DHS and backup weapons as space allows

Mech 3: Missile Focused 2D or 2D2. Play around with LRM's or SRM's with a single backup balistic or multiple lasers.

Mech 3 could also be a Grey Death if you spend the MC. 4 ML's and an AC10, AC20, or GR make it a decent brawler.

#19 Cifrer

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Posted 15 November 2015 - 10:29 AM

I generally think the hunchie 4SP is probably the best individual new player mech in the game due to it's pricing and versatility.

That being said, when I think back to what I did as a new player is I generally tended to buy mechs according to variants I thought I would like and then according to what they came with. If I wanted a bigger engine, I'd look for a relatively cheap mech with the engine I wanted because in puglandia you can only run one mech at a time. So why buy a engine by itself when I can buy a mech and swap the engine between a couple of mechs?

At least that was my thinking at the time.

When it comes to modules, personally I think they're a tad too expensive for what they do. New players really get hosed in the module department. Sure, you can swap modules between mechs, and unlocking them, while annoying, isn't really that bad, but with their prices, it's a choice of do you buy a mech or a module. That seems kind of excessive to me. Those of us who have been around a while might have the funds to have enough modules to go around, but new players are pretty screwed.

#20 Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky

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Posted 16 December 2015 - 11:00 PM

Thunderbolt or shadow hawk...

Every new player I have brought into the game that chose one of these two mechs as their starter mech have stayed long enough to master at least 3 different mechs...

Both are really good chassis to learn how to play the game, and can field different load outs... Helping them further choose their play style. I just make sure to ask them a question before they buy one of the two...

"do you like being in the front lines, or do you like fighting further back?"

If they are a front line fighter, then I recommend the thunderbolt to them... And if not, then I point them towards the shadow hawk....

From there, I then point them towards medium lasers and ac5s to help them learning aiming skills and send them on their merry way.





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