34 replies to this topic

[El Bandito]

Elizander, on 01 August 2015 - 06:50 AM, said:

Well I do agree that the minimum range on IS PPC is a bit extreme. I wouldn't mind if it was brought down to a flat 5 damage under 90m.

As I've stated before I would like PPC Velocity quirks be removed in place of the following:

1) IS PPC Quirk - PPC minimum range is removed (or deals a set amount of damage under 90m say 5-8 damage)
2) IS ER PPC Quirk - Deals an extra 2.5 splash damage to random location adjacent to hit.
3) Clan ER PPC Quirk - Deals an extra 2.5 splash damage to random location adjacent to hit. Roll is separate from the built-in 5 splash damage.

The extra splash can sorta somewhat make up for the heat and I think something like this is better than 20-40% velocity quirks.

While extra splash is fine, why are you giving the CERPPC more goodies, when the CERPPCs is already every way superior to the IS ERPPC? If anything else, the IS ERPPC should perform better damage/heat-wise due to extra weight and slot.

There has to be trade offs--just like IS and Clan ACs.

Edited by El Bandito, 01 August 2015 - 04:18 PM.

[Lightfoot]

MauttyKoray, on 01 August 2015 - 08:47 AM, said:

Even at the original, super slow nerf, I was hitting all but lights at 700-800m. The first buff made it ridiculously easy, and with this buff the PPC/Gauss boats which were a problem before are back.

It was insanely easy hitting targets at the original nerf once you get used to it. Far easier than dealing with travel time AND bullet drop from a sniper rifle in other games. Heck, throw wind speed and direction in there and MWO's PPC travel time was for children in comparison.

Post your video or it didn't happen. I reviewed a lot of, "PPC is OK", videos after the nerf to 950 mps and no one was hitting anything past 350-400 meters that was moving laterally. You see at that 950 mps at 400 meters you would need to aim the PPC 15-20 meters ahead of a light mech and calculate for vertical and horizontal shifting. Lots of players posted videos of them shooting PPCs and hitting stationary targets, but if there was lateral movement they were just missing.

For PPCs to offer a tactical option to Lasers they have to be accurate to 500 meters at least because they are so much hotter and have a 90 meter minimum range. That means 1300 -1400 mps, and that would end Laser Vomit, although laser builds would still be used on a lot of mechs. I am not seeing many PPC/ERPPC mechs other than the AWS, Adder, and Warhawk occasionally so that tells you right there that PPCs still suck wind compared to Lasers.

Truth is at 1100 mps Light mechs peek-shoot-and duck back before the PPC bolt reaches them at 400 meters.

PPC/ERPPC pays for long range accuracy with 10 and 15 heat while Ballistics do not even need extra heat sinks. They should be a long range counter-weapon to lasers and heavy ballistics.

[Johnny Z]

MrPrezident, on 01 August 2015 - 04:06 AM, said:

Greetings Fellow Mechwarriors,

It's come to my attention that recently, PPCs got a pretty big velocity buff, And I must say I've been enjoying it quite a bit!

The video below contains the almighty AWS-8Q PPC king or as I like to call him, Quad Damage. (Yes I have Mastery with this mech)




PPC velocity increased to 1100, up from 950
ER-PPC velocity increased to 1200, up from 1050
Clan ER-PPC velocity increased to 1200, up from 1050

What do you guys think of the velocity buff? Was it necessary to increase the velocity of this weapon? Do you feel PPCs are more viable now as a result? Are PPCs too strong now as a result of this?

I'd love to hear your opinions!

~ Prez

Sometime I think some players are using a cheat in game to get PPC velocity speeds great than those mentioned mentioned above.

Edited by Johnny Z, 01 August 2015 - 08:41 PM.

[Nightmare1]

I'm pretty happy that PPCs got their velocity back. PGI did them wrong by nerfing them so hard away back when.

[MischiefSC]

The moment the PPC becomes a rock solid performer it replaces all lasers. We did this before. PPFLD > DoT. 30pts PPFLD > 45pts over 1 second. Especially when you stack PPCs and ACs/Gauss.

This ain't new. PPCs are going to stay niche. Not terrible, but niche. Otherwise why take anything else?

[aniviron]

Mister D, on 01 August 2015 - 06:55 AM, said:

I'd still like to see a ramp up damage from 0-90 meters instead of the magical 89 no damage 90 full damage mechanic. (similar to what they've build into the clan LRM)

Lorewise that 90 meter cutoff was to prevent fratricide from its splash, just like they do with our modern day grenade launchers that won't explode until they've spun itself to arm after a certain distance, but then why not keep it for ERPPC, its an oddity.

PPCs used to have a linear graduation in damage from 0-90m, but back when the PPC was the best weapon in the game, it was hard set to 90m, and has been that way since.

I have mixed feelings on reverting it. Especially with collisions the way they are right now, getting under 50m is pretty rare for most mechs, which means that the 90m minimum range is sort of a non-penalty. The PPC does need a small performance buff right now, but I don't know if this is the right answer.

[Kubernetes]

I prefer the normal PPCs over ERPPCs. Sure, you've got the range limitation, but how good are ERPPCs at <90m? The heat is so bad that you'll overheat in virtually no time at all in a short range brawl--which is usually a time when you're desperate and firing as quickly as possible. How many people hold off for 6, 7, 8 seconds in a close brawl until they've got the heat overhead to fire ERPPCs? Most people I spectate who carry only ERPPCs just go into shutdown or override and blow up. If you're smart, you're carrying backup weapons anyway. I was a big advocate of SPLs back when they were widely considered garbage, because they're the perfect complement to PPCs. Once you're in brawling range--where you can't just hide and cool off--you need something other than PPCs or ERPPCs anyway.

[Moldur]

Maybe PGI is trying to shift the meta all sneaky beaky by increasing velocity on PPCs, the weapon that temporarily disables ECM (which there is now a lot of).

Edited by Moldur, 02 August 2015 - 01:04 AM.

[Lightfoot]

MischiefSC, on 01 August 2015 - 08:48 PM, said:

The moment the PPC becomes a rock solid performer it replaces all lasers. We did this before. PPFLD > DoT. 30pts PPFLD > 45pts over 1 second. Especially when you stack PPCs and ACs/Gauss.

This ain't new. PPCs are going to stay niche. Not terrible, but niche. Otherwise why take anything else?

Well right now we have forced laser-vomit-brawl because all the long range weapons are over-nerfed. That's much worse than PPCs that work well enough to be an honest choice. What goes on my mech should be my choice, not one forced on me by nerfing everything else into non-functionality.

[MauttyKoray]

El Bandito, on 01 August 2015 - 04:17 PM, said:

While extra splash is fine, why are you giving the CERPPC more goodies, when the CERPPCs is already every way superior to the IS ERPPC? If anything else, the IS ERPPC should perform better damage/heat-wise due to extra weight and slot.

There has to be trade offs--just like IS and Clan ACs.

...HAHAHA, I'm sorry, did you say the IS/Clan ACs have a trade off? No...the IS ACs are inherently SUPERIOR to the Clan ACs. PPFLD>DOT remember? The problem is that they're trying to treat the stuff differently instead of balancing them by weapon type. The current burst mechanics would be great to use for all C/ACs while the single shot mechanic should be used for the UACs. ACs do high damage spread out through bursts but then C/UACs would fire one slug at a time like current IS ACs with the ability to fire before CD at the risk of jam (needs to be a decent risk). Then when RACs come in they becomes a burst fire style that has a higher chance to jam the longer it fires successively, and then its jam chance degrades while not being fired.

Also, UACs could be further balanced with ACs by having them fire quicker, but lowering the damage per slug, say fire twice as quickly but do 1/2 the damage per slug just as an example.

Edited by MauttyKoray, 02 August 2015 - 01:52 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

MauttyKoray, on 02 August 2015 - 01:50 PM, said:

...HAHAHA, I'm sorry, did you say the IS/Clan ACs have a trade off? No...the IS ACs are inherently SUPERIOR to the Clan ACs. PPFLD>DOT remember? The problem is that they're trying to treat the stuff differently instead of balancing them by weapon type. The current burst mechanics would be great to use for all C/ACs while the single shot mechanic should be used for the UACs. ACs do high damage spread out through bursts but then C/UACs would fire one slug at a time like current IS ACs with the ability to fire before CD at the risk of jam (needs to be a decent risk). Then when RACs come in they becomes a burst fire style that has a higher chance to jam the longer it fires successively, and then its jam chance degrades while not being fired.

Also, UACs could be further balanced with ACs by having them fire quicker, but lowering the damage per slug, say fire twice as quickly but do 1/2 the damage per slug just as an example.

Saying something is flat-out superior without taking into account its size, weight, and the size and weight of all supporting equipment, is disingenuous.

[Deathlike]

aniviron, on 01 August 2015 - 10:01 PM, said:

PPCs used to have a linear graduation in damage from 0-90m, but back when the PPC was the best weapon in the game, it was hard set to 90m, and has been that way since.

I have mixed feelings on reverting it. Especially with collisions the way they are right now, getting under 50m is pretty rare for most mechs, which means that the 90m minimum range is sort of a non-penalty. The PPC does need a small performance buff right now, but I don't know if this is the right answer.

Use the exponential damage curve that the Clan LRM is using @ minimum range.

It was all "accidental" for the longest of time, and while it did occur back when PPCs were in power, the usage @ sub-90m ranges were considered "fine" or at least underpowered... which is kinda where it should be at.

[MauttyKoray]

Yeonne Greene, on 02 August 2015 - 02:17 PM, said:

Saying something is flat-out superior without taking into account its size, weight, and the size and weight of all supporting equipment, is disingenuous.

In return most clans have less crits, tonnage, or a combination of them. Plus clan mechs crits are locked in their location. If we could normally fit a weapon on an IS mech by rearranging the extra crits from FF/Endo, it something can't be done on clans. Plus while it may not seem like it, bar a few exception most clan mechs have less tonnage available.

[Y E O N N E]

MauttyKoray, on 02 August 2015 - 09:03 PM, said:

In return most clans have less crits, tonnage, or a combination of them. Plus clan mechs crits are locked in their location. If we could normally fit a weapon on an IS mech by rearranging the extra crits from FF/Endo, it something can't be done on clans. Plus while it may not seem like it, bar a few exception most clan mechs have less tonnage available.

Do Clan 'Mechs have less crits and tonnage when you put a similar sized XL engine with Endo (and how about with Ferro on, too?) on an IS 'Mech and take into account larger, heavier stuff for IS? Does down-sizing the engine actually make the IS 'Mech competitive, or does it just make it a walking target for easy laser/Gauss kills? Speed and range are imperative for map control. IS have no natural advantage in either category.

A lot of you keep trying to make the locked engine out like it's some sort of handicap, when it really isn't except in one or two cases (MLX, SHC). Sure, having locked structure slots is a pain in the butt and should be changed on certain 'Mechs, but even at speed a Summoner or a Nova can pack more and more useful firepower than Inner Sphere 'Mechs of the same tonnage moving slower, and do so with greater durability, pending IS XL. I mean, seriously, you try getting 2x UAC/5 on a JagerMech that runs at 89.1 kph with enough laser firepower to deal 20-30 damage at 400+ meters.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Mister D, on 01 August 2015 - 06:55 AM, said:

Lorewise that 90 meter cutoff was to prevent fratricide from its splash, just like they do with our modern day grenade launchers that won't explode until they've spun itself to arm after a certain distance, but then why not keep it for ERPPC, its an oddity.

Not so much.

From Sarna

"PPCs are equipped with a Field Inhibitor to prevent feedback which could damage the firing unit's electronic systems. This inhibitor degrades the performance of the weapon at close ranges of less than 90 meters. Particularly daring warriors have been known to disengage the inhibitor and risk damage to their own machine when a target is at close range."