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Let's Say We Do Decouple Engine Sizes And Mech Agility...


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#1 ProfessorD

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Posted 01 August 2015 - 11:12 AM

... how would we actually pick the agility values for each chassis or variant?

Would we allow the possibility of different variants having different agility, within the same chassis?

Would the variant's stock engine or engine cap play any role?

Would we have any system at all other than arbitrary selections of agility values by PGI?
(I shudder at the thought, but maybe PGI has grown up enough that this kind of thing would work. MASC ended up being kind of cool, after all...)

These questions point to the problem with this tread, which has degenerated into people shouting past each other all afternoon arguing with straw men of each others' positions. We clearly saw the idea to decouple engine size from agility presented, but I never saw it replaced with an alternative proposal, so it's really hard to even tell what people are arguing about over there. Can someone make the alternative proposal on how decoupling would work (and, even better, articulate the problem this would solve)? Or just link it if someone's already made it.

Roughly speaking, "Agility" values are torso twist rate, turn rate, arm movement rate, acceleration, deceleration, etc. Agility definitely does not include maximum straight-line speed; we seem to agree on that much.

Edited by ProfessorD, 01 August 2015 - 11:15 AM.


#2 Juodas Varnas

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Posted 01 August 2015 - 11:18 AM

I think the agility should be per Mech basis, with some of the variants having either slightly better Agility (to offset lower amount of Hardpoints like with the QKD-4G) or slightly worse Agility (for example if the mech has ECM, or maybe is a bit of a hardpoint bloat or maybe it just has a lot of high-mounted hardpoints in comparison to the other variants).

That's just my 2 cents on this.

#3 One Medic Army

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Posted 01 August 2015 - 11:25 AM

I'd go with a base value by stock speed, and then modify on a per-variant basis after the initial pass.

But obviously such a thing would need fine-tuning from actual gameplay experience rather than just a formula.

#4 stjobe

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Posted 01 August 2015 - 11:31 AM

That thread... OP asked to decouple torso twist speed only, and 1453 R went ballistic. I enjoyed the popcorn, big thank you to all involved :)

Seriously though, the issue with having agility tied to engine size is that it, coupled with pilot skills that increase agility and doubled basics, means most 'mechs are extremely agile. It's especially troubling in the case of heavies and assaults, who by having such high agility basically negate the only advantage lights and mediums have over them.

Did you know that a stock-engined Atlas only needs 1.6 seconds to point an arm 180 degrees behind it, and 2.5 seconds to turn around fully?

Did you know that in 2 seconds a 171 kph (47.5 m/s) Commando moves 95 metres?

At a range of 50 metres, moving perpendicular to the target, that's an angle change of 144 degrees, or 72 degrees/s - well within the torso + arm twist speed of most heavies and assaults, and even within the torso twist speed alone for most heavies and some assaults.

That's probably why some people say it's stupid to have all these agility values tied to engine size - and also to have pilot skills that increase them by rather a large amount.

Edited by stjobe, 01 August 2015 - 11:31 AM.


#5 Armorine

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Posted 01 August 2015 - 11:46 AM

Yeah again no. In a 1vs 1 fight a light will always win vs an assault right now. The only way it loses is if the light pilot makes a mistake. Assaults are already handicapped in agility. The fs9 and article cheetah are the bane of their existence.....



View Poststjobe, on 01 August 2015 - 11:31 AM, said:

That thread... OP asked to decouple torso twist speed only, and 1453 R went ballistic. I enjoyed the popcorn, big thank you to all involved :)

Seriously though, the issue with having agility tied to engine size is that it, coupled with pilot skills that increase agility and doubled basics, means most 'mechs are extremely agile. It's especially troubling in the case of heavies and assaults, who by having such high agility basically negate the only advantage lights and mediums have over them.

Did you know that a stock-engined Atlas only needs 1.6 seconds to point an arm 180 degrees behind it, and 2.5 seconds to turn around
Did you know that in 2 seconds a 171 kph (47.5 m/s) Commando moves 95 metres?

At a range of 50 metres, moving perpendicular to the target, that's an angle change of 144 degrees, or 72 degrees/s - well within the torso + arm twist speed of most heavies and assaults, and even within the torso twist speed alone for most heavies and some assaults.

That's probably why some people say it's stupid to have all these agility values tied to engine size - and also to have pilot skills that increase them by rather a large amount.


The problem with this is they leg hump and get behind the target. They never stay at 50 meters.

#6 InspectorG

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Posted 01 August 2015 - 11:48 AM

View PostProfessorD, on 01 August 2015 - 11:12 AM, said:



Roughly speaking, "Agility" values are torso twist rate, turn rate, arm movement rate, acceleration, deceleration, etc. Agility definitely does not include maximum straight-line speed; we seem to agree on that much.


Agility: Turn rate, accel, deccel, twist rate/range, Arm range/rate, ...perhaps even climbing rate. Can be quirked by variant/chassis.

IMO:

Assaults at 100 tons take 10 seconds to about-face
85 tons, 8 seconds.

Heavies also receive similar treatment but at faster rates.

This will make MOST assaults very 'firing-lane' in tactical outlook. Heavies become less 'athletic'. Gives Mediums more role as light Calvary and Lights as Assault killers.
Some heavies/assaults should remain 'fast' but underpowered. Summoners, Gargoyle, Dragon,/etc.

Also BUFF FRONTAL CT/ST armor and perhaps structure and Legs armor/structure on Assaults/heavies.

LEAVE LINEAR SPEED alone, maybe even quirk some variants for more accel/deccel as long as not turning.

#7 Mcgral18

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Posted 01 August 2015 - 11:52 AM

View PostArmorine, on 01 August 2015 - 11:46 AM, said:

Yeah again no. In a 1vs 1 fight a light will always win vs an assault right now. The only way it loses is if the light pilot makes a mistake. Assaults are already handicapped in agility. The fs9 and article cheetah are the bane of their existence.....


How bad of an Assault pilot are you?

2 alphas, and a leg is gone (1 if the Light is bad and walking in a straight line)

No reasonable Assault build has trouble tracking a Light, as stated above. That's the same Agility a Whale gets...or 10% better turn speed because of a quirk. That Dual Gauss+laser LOLpha will kill your light in short order. 1 VS 1 is just a joke.

Edited by Mcgral18, 01 August 2015 - 11:52 AM.


#8 Trev Firestorm

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Posted 01 August 2015 - 11:54 AM

View PostArmorine, on 01 August 2015 - 11:46 AM, said:

Yeah again no. In a 1vs 1 fight a light will always win vs an assault right now. The only way it loses is if the light pilot makes a mistake. Assaults are already handicapped in agility. The fs9 and article cheetah are the bane of their existence.....





The problem with this is they leg hump and get behind the target. They never stay at 50 meters.

Simple, put knockdowns back in on top of the agility nerf, if the lights try to leg hump they go down hard but otherwise have a bit better time of trying to do it the right way.

#9 InspectorG

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Posted 01 August 2015 - 11:58 AM

View PostArmorine, on 01 August 2015 - 11:46 AM, said:

Yeah again no. In a 1vs 1 fight a light will always win vs an assault right now.



"Always"?

False. Your proof?

#10 ProfessorD

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Posted 01 August 2015 - 12:01 PM

View Poststjobe, on 01 August 2015 - 11:31 AM, said:

...
Seriously though, the issue with having agility tied to engine size is that it, coupled with pilot skills that increase agility and doubled basics, means most 'mechs are extremely agile. ...


I find it really interesting that I don't see any discussion of the role of basic efficiencies in that thread. I think lots of people ignore them, but the basic efficiencies are enormous bonuses. I still remember the first match I played after finishing double-basics in my Highlander. It was a whole different mech, and a bit of a moment of realization for me that

EDIT: That the forums cut my reply off?

...that mech agility matters a lot.

Edited by ProfessorD, 01 August 2015 - 12:17 PM.


#11 Armorine

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Posted 01 August 2015 - 12:01 PM

View PostMcgral18, on 01 August 2015 - 11:52 AM, said:


How bad of an Assault pilot are you?

2 alphas, and a leg is gone (1 if the Light is bad and walking in a straight line)

No reasonable Assault build has trouble tracking a Light, as stated above. That's the same Agility a Whale gets...or 10% better turn speed because of a quirk. That Dual Gauss+laser LOLpha will kill your light in short order. 1 VS 1 is just a joke.


You have an unrealistic expectation of assaults. You obviously don't pilot them much. You seem to think all assaults are duel gauss whales. Guess what they arnt as it stands assaults will lose 1 vs 1 with any competent light pilot. Decoupling the engine would serve only as a buff to lighter mechs. Everything heavy and above would be nerfed. Why is this? Lights often carry high alphas and high dps. If you put a lance of assaults vs a lance of lights it'll be a slaughter in favor of the lights. Always has been this way always will.

#12 Mcgral18

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Posted 01 August 2015 - 12:08 PM

View PostArmorine, on 01 August 2015 - 12:01 PM, said:

You have an unrealistic expectation of assaults. You obviously don't pilot them much. You seem to think all assaults are duel gauss whales. Guess what they arnt as it stands assaults will lose 1 vs 1 with any competent light pilot. Decoupling the engine would serve only as a buff to lighter mechs. Everything heavy and above would be nerfed. Why is this? Lights often carry high alphas and high dps. If you put a lance of assaults vs a lance of lights it'll be a slaughter in favor of the lights. Always has been this way always will.


Posted Image


You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Maybe a lance of tri-AC2 Victors, but any competent build with a competent pilot will win.


They have no difficulty tracking Lights because of their impressive agility, and have no difficulty killing them, because of their 40-80 pinpoint alphas, those Light Legs won't stand up to the onslaught.


Take a look at my Sig, notice that XL400 troll build? No light stands a chance against it.

#13 ProfessorD

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Posted 01 August 2015 - 12:18 PM

Oh boy. It's happening here too. Armorine and McGral get your Epeens out and 1v1 each other bros. Everyone else abandon thread.

#14 InspectorG

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Posted 01 August 2015 - 12:20 PM

View PostArmorine, on 01 August 2015 - 12:01 PM, said:

You have an unrealistic expectation of assaults. You obviously don't pilot them much. You seem to think all assaults are duel gauss whales. Guess what they arnt as it stands assaults will lose 1 vs 1 with any competent light pilot. Decoupling the engine would serve only as a buff to lighter mechs. Everything heavy and above would be nerfed. Why is this? Lights often carry high alphas and high dps. If you put a lance of assaults vs a lance of lights it'll be a slaughter in favor of the lights. Always has been this way always will.


You are omitting that good assaults can leg the lights at range with one alpha from a decent build.

Omitting that the Lights tend to overheat quickly.

Lights can get one-shotted and are lucky if they only get on ST cored.

Lights usually need lazors...which spreads damage whereas the Assaults can run PPFLD.

Certain Clan Assaults can boat streaks...4ASSRM6 Warhawk+ 4-5 MPL.

I mainly run Lights and Assaults.(and Cicadas). Trust me, Heavies and Assaults need this nerf.

Lights and Mediums are disadvantaged in MWO because the best tactic is most damage in the shortest time over the least area.
Lights rely on DPS that is heat constricted, range constricted, and XL engine dependent. Once they are legged, they die.
A legged Assualt/Heavy is not dead unless they get an ammo explosion.

View PostProfessorD, on 01 August 2015 - 12:18 PM, said:

Oh boy. It's happening here too. Armorine and McGral get your Epeens out and 1v1 each other bros. Everyone else abandon thread.


Nah, it aint that bad yet.

#15 ProfessorD

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Posted 01 August 2015 - 12:22 PM

View PostInspectorG, on 01 August 2015 - 12:20 PM, said:

...
Nah, it aint that bad yet.


ForumWarrioring desensitizes people pretty badly, doesn't it?

#16 Mcgral18

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Posted 01 August 2015 - 12:25 PM

View PostProfessorD, on 01 August 2015 - 12:18 PM, said:

Oh boy. It's happening here too. Armorine and McGral get your Epeens out and 1v1 each other bros. Everyone else abandon thread.


Would you prefer he keep spreading blatantly false information?


Assaults are too agile. They should have a hard time tracking a Light. As it stands, that doesn't exist, only in Armorine's imagination.


Mechs with small engine caps are unfairly gimped on multiple counts, heat, agility, and crit slots. Fixing 2 of those is something that needs to be done. Having the Stormcrow more agile than half of the Clan Lights is just silly.

Edited by Mcgral18, 01 August 2015 - 12:56 PM.


#17 Armorine

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Posted 01 August 2015 - 12:27 PM

You put a lance of average assaults against your average lights and they will get slaughtered. Your trying to point to a build that excels at close range combat. Most assaults are build to fight across multiple ranges. As an assault you get one chance to maul or kill a light on approach. Once he gets to you he's going to thrash you. You only chance then is to back up to a wall or hope he makes a mistake and you catch him on counter rotation.

#18 Mcgral18

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Posted 01 August 2015 - 12:28 PM

View PostArmorine, on 01 August 2015 - 12:27 PM, said:

You put a lance of average assaults against your average lights and they will get slaughtered. Your trying to point to a build that excels at close range combat. Most assaults are build to fight across multiple ranges. As an assault you get one chance to maul or kill a light on approach. Once he gets to you he's going to thrash you. You only chance then is to back up to a wall or hope he makes a mistake and you catch him on counter rotation.


No, most average Assaults are built for an Easy Button LOLpha and kills things fast. Bad builds are spread out.



Please, stop showing us how bad you are. I've got 9 hours of Premium left if you want to lose.

#19 Armorine

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Posted 01 August 2015 - 12:33 PM

View PostProfessorD, on 01 August 2015 - 12:18 PM, said:

Oh boy. It's happening here too. Armorine and McGral get your Epeens out and 1v1 each other bros. Everyone else abandon thread.


Gonna be no epeening here. Just 2 people with differing opinions

View PostMcgral18, on 01 August 2015 - 12:28 PM, said:


No, most average Assaults are built for an Easy Button LOLpha and kills things fast. Bad builds are spread out.



Please, stop showing us how bad you are. I've got 9 hours of Premium left if you want to lose.


You must have a fragile ego to attack others on the internet.

Yes there are a lot of lolpha builds but there are an equal number of dps and ranged builds. Lights are typically built as knife fighters and excel in close.

#20 InspectorG

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Posted 01 August 2015 - 12:36 PM

View PostProfessorD, on 01 August 2015 - 12:22 PM, said:


ForumWarrioring desensitizes people pretty badly, doesn't it?


Possibly.

But i also work in Customer Service, so to speak...





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