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While Ghost Heat Is On The Menu Again... Could We "normalize" It And Live Happily Ever After?


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#1 Duke Nedo

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Posted 03 August 2015 - 03:16 AM

On vacation. It's raining... here goes.

Thinking about ghost heat in general, I have always wondered howcome it's not more "normalized". Why does 3x cLPL creat ghost heat but not 2x cLPL+6xcERML? That just doesn't compute...

What I am thinking of has been touched upon before, for example here (http://mwomercs.com/...-voltage-meter/), probably other Places but I don't have time to seach more carefully right now. I am sure this is not a New idea, just mashing up my take on it here. Not to replace ghost heat, but more to "normalize" it and make it more intuitive.

NOTE: This is Energy only, LRM/SRM heat and AC ghost heat is not regulated by this. Imo other systems would do that job better, like redesigning launcher tubes counts and game mechanics for missiles and perhaps recoil or something along these lines for ACs if needed at all. IMO high weight limits AC abuse sufficiently and I don't really have any problem at all with missile spam. Perhaps ghost spraed, lol? :)

This could be done in two fashions, but both requires a New metric. I would Call it "Energy Bandwidth" or "Effect capacity" or something like that. What it describes is actually the Ghost Heat Threshold With a nicer name.

1. The simple implementation

Just take the weapons fired Within the same 0.5s tick, like the engine does now, but instead of counting weapons, add up the heat generated. Some examples:

2x cLPL: 20 heat
3x cLPL: 30 heat
2x cLPL+2 cERML: 32 heat
2x CLPL+4 cERML: 44 heat
3x LPL: 21 heat
3x LPL+4x ML: 37 heat

Rationale: The intuitive exlanation would be that the mech can only efficiently handle a certain bandwidth of energy before it starts to accumulate heat in an exponential manner. I.e. up to the Energy Bandwith of the mech it builds linearly like non-ghost-heat does now, but passing that point, the curve goes exponential, giving you a "ghost heat". It would work exacly as it does now, but you could fire any combination of weapons and they would all contribute to the bandwidth.

HUD: PGI would have to add a bandwidth meter to the HUD to make this intuitive.

Balance: Here's a nice twist with this, PGI could use Energy Bandwidth as a balance parameter that is independent of Lore and Stock builds. As a "quirk", without actually being a quirk, some chassi could be made to tolerate higher alphas, like for example I am thinking Awesomes could be made to tolerate 3x PPC without inventing some curious exception rules to ghost heat. You'd just give it a higher Energy Bandwidth, like perhaps 32 instead of 28.

Classes: PGI could choose to give difference classes different thresholds.

Engines: Another alternative would be linking it to the engine installed. Not sure if its a good idea or not, but some Awesomes and Battlemasters would benefit, and DWF alpha would be hurt... just an option, probably not the best idea.

Exponential heat: Just to illustrate, the exponent would work something like this: Our test Timberwolf fires 2x cLPL and builds 20 heat. That is below the threshold of 28 and produces no ghost heat. If he also fires his 4 cMLs within 0.5s, he pushes up the sum to 44 heat within the same 0.5s tick and goes above the threshold. The engines uses an equation and calculates that the resulting heat is say 56 instead of 44. By using a single exponential of any combination of weapons you miss out on the ability to punish ghost heat more on some weapons than others, but it becomes much more intuitive.

Edit: something like this depending how you choose your equation. This is a simple y=x+((x-EB<0)?0:(x-y)^exp), or y=x+(above_threshold^exp) where you can choose threshold and exponent.

Posted Image

Predicted Implications:

- Large laser vomit alphas go down and TTK goes up.
- Ghost heat becomes more intuitive and a physical basis could be made up
- A new balance parameter is created that is not restricted by Lore or Stock builds
- Tuning is needed


2. The advanced implementation

This methods is a bit more "realistic" and something I'd like a lot, but I guess less likely to ever be implemented.

The idea would be to instead of using "heat" as input, it would instead use "effect" as input, i.e. heat/duration for lasers, heat/0.5s tick for flamers, and heat/cooldown for PPCs, and a charge effect for gauss while holding charge (this number should be quite big and just added to effect output).

This effect value would then be added up, but instead of using some arbitrary ticks of 0.5s, one would just keep track of all active beams and add up the effect the produce while active. To this value, one would add PPC and gauss recharge effects.

Values:
Name
C-ER LRG LASER 6,67
C-ER MED LASER 5,22
C-ER PPC 3,75
C-ER SML LASER 3,00
C-FLAMER 2,00
C-LRG PULSE LASER 8,93
C-MED PULSE LASER 7,06
C-SML PULSE LASER 4,00

ER LARGE LASER 6,40
ER PPC 3,75
FLAMER 2,00
LARGE LASER 7,00
LRG PULSE LASER 10,45
MED PULSE LASER 6,67
MEDIUM LASER 4,44
PPC 2,50
SMALL LASER 2,67
SML PULSE LASER 4,00

This would feel even more intuitive to me and would allow you to juggle the bandwidth even more depending on the beam durations.

Predicted implications:

- Same as above plus,
- PPC recharge and Gauss recharge can add some background effect
- It doesn't limit firing multiple PPCs which would need something added to it, but it does in a realistic way make it a bit more difficult to charge gauss while burning lasers. Will increase TTK a bit more since Gauss better be fired before lasers and not simultaneously.


That's a very crude draft, running out of time here. I am sure I am like the 32nd guy proposing something along these lines, so perhaps I should not consider it a suggestion as much as a question why we don't have something along these lines? There must be some major flaw I didn't see yet...

Kids awake, time to go.

Edited by Duke Nedo, 03 August 2015 - 06:38 AM.


#2 El Bandito

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Posted 03 August 2015 - 03:56 AM

I personally want a "power draw" system, where each weapon has certain power requirements, along with their heat and ammo requirements. And if the alpha exceeds the max power amount set by PGI, then the rest of the alpha is forced to chain-fire automatically. That way, it is easy to understand and use by the newbies.

Unlike the current convoluted mess that is GH.

Edited by El Bandito, 03 August 2015 - 05:13 AM.


#3 Lily from animove

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Posted 03 August 2015 - 04:09 AM

just 30 fixed heattreshold is all thats needed.

#4 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 03 August 2015 - 04:29 AM

View PostEl Bandito, on 03 August 2015 - 03:56 AM, said:

I personally want a "power draw" system, where each weapon has certain power requirements, along with their heat and ammo requirements. And if the alpha exceeds the max amount set by PGI, then the rest of the alpha is forced to chain-fire automatically. That way, it is easy to understand and use by the newbies.

Unlike the current convoluted mess that is GH.

Ghost Heat is stupid. I mean as stupid as it gets. You are at least using logic, But I am a Supporter of the Alpha Strike. And I only want it to have a CoF widening from the number of weapons fired on a single pull. Is that asking so much?

#5 El Bandito

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Posted 03 August 2015 - 04:43 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 03 August 2015 - 04:29 AM, said:

Ghost Heat is stupid. I mean as stupid as it gets. You are at least using logic, But I am a Supporter of the Alpha Strike. And I only want it to have a CoF widening from the number of weapons fired on a single pull. Is that asking so much?


Apparently so. People have been talking about it since the beginning of MWO.

#6 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 03 August 2015 - 04:46 AM

View PostEl Bandito, on 03 August 2015 - 04:43 AM, said:


Apparently so. People have been talking about it since the beginning of MWO.

Yeah Cause those who think they have skill should always hit what they aim at. I want those folks to go shoot some real weapons and see how much skill they really have. Then come back with proof they are sniper quality shooters.

#7 El Bandito

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Posted 03 August 2015 - 05:13 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 03 August 2015 - 04:46 AM, said:

Yeah Cause those who think they have skill should always hit what they aim at. I want those folks to go shoot some real weapons and see how much skill they really have. Then come back with proof they are sniper quality shooters.


Not to mention that it is not the person who is shooting, but many tons of metal running at 100 kph. :P

#8 TexAce

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Posted 03 August 2015 - 05:23 AM

No graphs. Didn't read.

#9 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 03 August 2015 - 05:29 AM

View PostEl Bandito, on 03 August 2015 - 05:13 AM, said:


Not to mention that it is not the person who is shooting, but many tons of metal running at 100 kph. :P

Thanks for that. But I would be impressed to see the sitting still spread before seeing teh moving spread. ;)

#10 Duke Nedo

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Posted 03 August 2015 - 06:12 AM

View PostLily from animove, on 03 August 2015 - 04:09 AM, said:

just 30 fixed heattreshold is all thats needed.


Perhaps. It would however remove the buffer in which we have burst DPS and make it almost completely dictated by dissipation. I kind of like to have the heat buffer thing, it lets you plan your engagements a bit, that adds a layer.

The method proposed here keeps burst dps but reduces alphas, making it kind of a hybrid solution... perhaps its easier for PGI to adjust their GH system rather than totally scrapping it?

#11 AjerWerklWerkl

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Posted 03 August 2015 - 06:20 AM

Back to the original post -- I love it. Thoughtful, very sensible, and clearly solves the problem in an elegant way as opposed to having a plethora of individual exceptions. Great stuff! Thanks Duke!

Edited by AjerWerklWerkl, 03 August 2015 - 06:22 AM.


#12 Mechteric

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Posted 03 August 2015 - 06:30 AM

Drop the 0.5 second tick thing. That's just too artificial a time period to mean anything in a real time game. Why? Because I'm not a robot and why penalize me because I clicked 0.0001 seconds too early? It doesn't make sense to keep such a thing.



At any rate I had a somewhat similar idea long ago that doesn't even show up in the Forum archives (must have been 2013 or so). Essentially I just recommended a power meter, and each weapon needed a certain amount of power. Based on your engine you would have a certain capacity of that power and a certain "dissipation rate", or when power would be fully available. If you went over your "power meter capacity", that is when you would generate extra heat. The idea being that your fusion engine is having to work overtime to provide that power on demand, and the result is more heat.


So as an example, your engine's powerplant might be able to handle 2 ERPPCs just fine, but if you tried to also fire a Gauss rifle at the same time, perhaps it would go over your capacity in that timeframe and generate some amount of extra heat (even though Gauss generates no heat, it would be really high on the energy requirements).


But obviously having to keep track of both Heat and Energy bars may be a bit complex for this sort of game (or the free to play audience in general perhaps), so I guess I don't see it ever happening.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 03 August 2015 - 06:33 AM.


#13 Duke Nedo

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Posted 03 August 2015 - 06:44 AM

View PostTexAce, on 03 August 2015 - 05:23 AM, said:

No graphs. Didn't read.


Fixed that for you. :)

View PostCapperDeluxe, on 03 August 2015 - 06:30 AM, said:

Drop the 0.5 second tick thing. That's just too artificial a time period to mean anything in a real time game. Why? Because I'm not a robot and why penalize me because I clicked 0.0001 seconds too early? It doesn't make sense to keep such a thing.



At any rate I had a somewhat similar idea long ago that doesn't even show up in the Forum archives (must have been 2013 or so). Essentially I just recommended a power meter, and each weapon needed a certain amount of power. Based on your engine you would have a certain capacity of that power and a certain &quot;dissipation rate&quot;, or when power would be fully available. If you went over your &quot;power meter capacity&quot;, that is when you would generate extra heat. The idea being that your fusion engine is having to work overtime to provide that power on demand, and the result is more heat.


So as an example, your engine's powerplant might be able to handle 2 ERPPCs just fine, but if you tried to also fire a Gauss rifle at the same time, perhaps it would go over your capacity in that timeframe and generate some amount of extra heat (even though Gauss generates no heat, it would be really high on the energy requirements).


But obviously having to keep track of both Heat and Energy bars may be a bit complex for this sort of game (or the free to play audience in general perhaps), so I guess I don't see it ever happening.


True that, I remember reading that one as well way back. These things have been floating around. It may actually be a better idea to not use Heat, but rather a new weapon parameter as input, like I think bandito also said above, something like energy load or whatever. The reason being that it would give PGI another parameter they can tweak for balance that is not tied up in Lore. That would make it so much easier for them to balance this game without stepping anyone on their TToes...

Edit: There is the odd problematic heat value as well, especially for IS PPC vs IS ERPPC where the latter would be punished really hard for firing more than 2. This could be circumvented by using a new parameter instead of heat.

Edited by Duke Nedo, 03 August 2015 - 06:50 AM.


#14 Fuggles

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Posted 03 August 2015 - 07:07 AM

seems like a complicated way to achieve the same thing as lowering the heatcap.

keep in mind that with the module system that basically rewards taking as few different weapon types as possible i just see it being lifted and simply swapping to 4 clpl or something like that, 52 vs 54 damage but at 600+ range.

a lot of these types of suggestions also do nothing to limit ballistic and missile build potential.

#15 Lugh

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Posted 03 August 2015 - 07:07 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 03 August 2015 - 04:46 AM, said:

Yeah Cause those who think they have skill should always hit what they aim at. I want those folks to go shoot some real weapons and see how much skill they really have. Then come back with proof they are sniper quality shooters.

I would, but I don't have the time energy or camera skills needs to capture all that :P

#16 Duke Nedo

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Posted 03 August 2015 - 07:38 AM

View PostFuggles, on 03 August 2015 - 07:07 AM, said:

seems like a complicated way to achieve the same thing as lowering the heatcap.

keep in mind that with the module system that basically rewards taking as few different weapon types as possible i just see it being lifted and simply swapping to 4 clpl or something like that, 52 vs 54 damage but at 600+ range.

a lot of these types of suggestions also do nothing to limit ballistic and missile build potential.


Not the same, see above reply to Lily.

Also saying in the OP that this is an Energy only thing. Imo heat in general is not a very good way to control ballistics boating. They are more or less self-regulated by their heavy weight. Only AC/40 is really affected by ghostheat, and then in a rather extreme way because of a huge exponent... imho there must be a better way to deal with AC40 (and 3x Gauss or 4x AC10 or whatever people may want to boat). Not that I really mind AC40, I think dual gauss is better and those are not restricted, but whatever...

Edited by Duke Nedo, 03 August 2015 - 07:40 AM.


#17 J0anna

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Posted 03 August 2015 - 08:30 AM

View PostDuke Nedo, on 03 August 2015 - 06:12 AM, said:


Perhaps. It would however remove the buffer in which we have burst DPS and make it almost completely dictated by dissipation. I kind of like to have the heat buffer thing, it lets you plan your engagements a bit, that adds a layer.

The method proposed here keeps burst dps but reduces alphas, making it kind of a hybrid solution... perhaps its easier for PGI to adjust their GH system rather than totally scrapping it?


No Lily is right. The heat cap was always part of the mech balancing mechanism of battletech. Yes, more would have to be done including making doubles true doubles, reducing the weapon heat back closer to cannon levels, perhaps increasing the number of weapon module slots to 3, increasing the heat dissipation rate to match the current firing rates. Perhaps ever adjusting weapon damage. If ghost heat is really on the table, then I suggest we come up with a valid way to eliminate it. As crazy as it may seem, we could even reduce armor values back closer to TT values with a proper heat cap thus increasing the effectiveness of ammo dependent weapons.

PGI must soon realize that they painted themselves into a corner with current weapon balance (which, I should add is rather good considering tier one bt weapons were never meant to be balanced against tier two) but now they almost have no choice but to reduce later tier two (and eventually) tier three weapons. So we are in effect stuck at current weapon effectiveness forever. Something that reduces this games longevity.

But a heat cap should be tried (we do have a test server). Ghost heat is simply another bandaid required because of the design choice to remove the heat cap. Additionally, with a heat cap, PGI is welcome to freely copy a "house rule" we often used in our TT games, when we allowed changing mechs. A mech is free to mix single and double heat sinks in any build that has double heat sinks. We used this rule to allow IS mechs to get heat sinks in their legs while being able to use doubles elsewhere (it was mostly used by assaults and a few heavies). For MWO this could be implemented by allowing the upgrade to double heat sinks to be more of an unlock.

So lets try to get rid of ghost heat rather than modifying it...

#18 Duke Nedo

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Posted 03 August 2015 - 08:53 AM

View PostMoenrg, on 03 August 2015 - 08:30 AM, said:


No Lily is right. The heat cap was always part of the mech balancing mechanism of battletech. Yes, more would have to be done including making doubles true doubles, reducing the weapon heat back closer to cannon levels, perhaps increasing the number of weapon module slots to 3, increasing the heat dissipation rate to match the current firing rates. Perhaps ever adjusting weapon damage. If ghost heat is really on the table, then I suggest we come up with a valid way to eliminate it. As crazy as it may seem, we could even reduce armor values back closer to TT values with a proper heat cap thus increasing the effectiveness of ammo dependent weapons.

PGI must soon realize that they painted themselves into a corner with current weapon balance (which, I should add is rather good considering tier one bt weapons were never meant to be balanced against tier two) but now they almost have no choice but to reduce later tier two (and eventually) tier three weapons. So we are in effect stuck at current weapon effectiveness forever. Something that reduces this games longevity.

But a heat cap should be tried (we do have a test server). Ghost heat is simply another bandaid required because of the design choice to remove the heat cap. Additionally, with a heat cap, PGI is welcome to freely copy a &quot;house rule&quot; we often used in our TT games, when we allowed changing mechs. A mech is free to mix single and double heat sinks in any build that has double heat sinks. We used this rule to allow IS mechs to get heat sinks in their legs while being able to use doubles elsewhere (it was mostly used by assaults and a few heavies). For MWO this could be implemented by allowing the upgrade to double heat sinks to be more of an unlock.

So lets try to get rid of ghost heat rather than modifying it...


I am not totally against going full sustained dps, just saying that this suggestion is different from just lowering the heat threshold. To be honest I don't have any strong preferences with any of this, I am just venting this. I can live with any or none of the solutions out there. It could be however that modifying gh into something better is possible while removing it is totally out of the question... It would require pgi to admit it was wrong to introduce it.

Thinking of that, anyone know why they went to 60 threshold initially? Was there a reason? Because 10 sec rounds?

Anyways, something like this wouldn't change performance nor game play, nor balance dramatically, perhaps that makes it feasible to hope for?

#19 Veev

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Posted 03 August 2015 - 09:10 AM

Replace ghost heat with convergence. Problem solved.

Edited by Veev, 03 August 2015 - 09:12 AM.


#20 Lugh

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Posted 03 August 2015 - 09:43 AM

View PostVeev, on 03 August 2015 - 09:10 AM, said:

Replace ghost heat with convergence. Problem solved.

they HAD convergence handled artificially and the crying of the can't pilot light players in particular and corner peekers that couldn't be bothered to wait .25 seconds for the crosshair to contract before firing, Set the Beta boards on fire.

The artifact of this system is still in place 'pinpoint' before pinpoint you might have to wait .45 seconds before all lined up. It also did wondrous things like shooting some lasers straight up because you had a hill in your way.

It was sincerely disliked by all.

Edited by Lugh, 03 August 2015 - 10:28 AM.






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