212 replies to this topic

[Jazzbandit1313]

Makes sense to me.

or put something like a 1.5x multiplier on structure across the board.

OR

Edited by Jazzbandit1313, 03 August 2015 - 04:49 PM.

[Kira Onime]

Armor already was doubled at one point.

[Jazzbandit1313]

[process]

Focus fire is OP.

[PurpleNinja]

If TTK (now I know what it means) is so low, why so many people cry "DUUUH STAHP WASTING MA TIME".

[Wintersdark]

Jazzbandit1313, on 03 August 2015 - 04:27 PM, said:

No.

Armor doubling isn't fair. It appears fair: "Oh, but you're increasing everyone's armor by a percentage amount, that's the very definition of fair!.

It's not.

See, Double the armor on a Locust, it still gets one-shot. Lights are still quite fragile, because gaining 1/4 of a standard alpha's armor to your CT isn't enough to really make a substantial difference.


On the other hand, the atlas gains, what, 120 armor for it's CT?

See the problem? You make Heavies and Assaults vastly more survivable, but barely touch Lights and Mediums. If you're a heavy or assault pilot, that may seem fine, but it's terrible in a game that's already heavily skewed to big mechs. Imagine trying to take on an Atlas in a Jenner after armor is doubled again.

Koniving had a solution to this, some time back in the day.

[Kristian Radoulov]

Not to be a ****, but I've seen you play in a couple of matches. TTK is not your issue, situational awareness is. Ask around for help from pilots, hell even I'd be glad to help you. Best of luck.

[Shade 03]

Wintersdark, on 03 August 2015 - 04:59 PM, said:

No.

Armor doubling isn't fair. It appears fair: "Oh, but you're increasing everyone's armor by a percentage amount, that's the very definition of fair!.

It's not.

See, Double the armor on a Locust, it still gets one-shot. Lights are still quite fragile, because gaining 1/4 of a standard alpha's armor to your CT isn't enough to really make a substantial difference.


On the other hand, the atlas gains, what, 120 armor for it's CT?

See the problem? You make Heavies and Assaults vastly more survivable, but barely touch Lights and Mediums. If you're a heavy or assault pilot, that may seem fine, but it's terrible in a game that's already heavily skewed to big mechs. Imagine trying to take on an Atlas in a Jenner after armor is doubled again.

Koniving had a solution to this, some time back in the day.

Oh ho
Maybe the lights SHOULD think twice about charging an atlas.
Maybe the atlas SHOULDNT go down from three or four light mech alphas
MAybe the light pilots should FEAR the larger mechs instead of jumping in and attacking because they can with little consequence relying on their crappy hit boxes and hitreg fail to keep them alive.

You must be a cheetah pilot

[Wintersdark]

Shade 03, on 03 August 2015 - 06:52 PM, said:

Oh ho
Maybe the lights SHOULD think twice about charging an atlas.
Maybe the atlas SHOULDNT go down from three or four light mech alphas
MAybe the light pilots should FEAR the larger mechs instead of jumping in and attacking because they can with little consequence relying on their crappy hit boxes and hitreg fail to keep them alive.

You must be a cheetah pilot

You're clearly new here, and have no damned idea what you're talking about.

1) I am an Assault pilot primarily. Assault for when I need to perform, Mediums for when I'm having fun. This is pretty common knowledge. I am a spectacularly bad light pilot, and dislike them immensely.
2) Your list? It's directly contrary to the game design principles, which state that it should not be a power progression from light>medium>heavy>assault. And it shouldn't be. Why? Because:
3) Have you looked at the queue sizes, particularly pre-cheetah release (they'll go back after the new mech smell wears off)? Lights are typically at less than 10%. Mediums around 15-20%. Heavies pushing 40%. This is a problem. Lights are the hardest class to play, and the least rewarding.

Look. In tabletop, weapons do the same list damage. Mechs have HALF the armor they do here. That means your locust loses like 10 armor to it's CT, and the Atlas loses some 60. THAT IS HOW IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE. Even assaults should be very wary of a single ERPPC, and tremble in fear of an AC20. Now, things are different here because of convergence and whatnot, and that's where problems come from, but the fact remains that there is already WAY more survivability difference between a light and an assault than there should be. Doubling armor again makes it even worse.

[Light-Speed]

Shade 03, on 03 August 2015 - 06:52 PM, said:

Oh ho
Maybe the lights SHOULD think twice about charging an atlas.
Maybe the atlas SHOULDNT go down from three or four light mech alphas
MAybe the light pilots should FEAR the larger mechs instead of jumping in and attacking because they can with little consequence relying on their crappy hit boxes and hitreg fail to keep them alive.

You must be a cheetah pilot

1) Cheetahs are new. Can't have people with only Cheetah mindsets emerging that soon.
2) I cored a Cheetah a couple days ago because it was stupid enough to show itself in front of me. With only a 1/3 of my weapons (granted those cannons were the only things that would have hit him. And it was more like 2/5 but anyways)
3) so... I don't think the last sentence made much sense. But +1 to everything else. Except maybe reliance on hitreg. That's not much of an excuse these days; lights who spread damage can come out of a scrape surprisingly healthy (sometimes...).

[ShinVector]

Kristian Radoulov, on 03 August 2015 - 06:39 PM, said:

Not to be a ****, but I've seen you play in a couple of matches. TTK is not your issue, situational awareness is. Ask around for help from pilots, hell even I'd be glad to help you. Best of luck.

Don't you know that the fault always lays everything else But the PILOT !!

Edited by ShinVector, 03 August 2015 - 07:15 PM.

[Mcgral18]

PGI kinda messed up implementing weapons. Starting off with multiple AC20s in the game, at 6 and 12 tons. That's taking doubled armour into account; otherwise, they were AC40s. That's because the pumped out 40 damage in 10 seconds.



So, to combat the 2x to 20x weapon damage, they doubled armour. Most weapons are at 3x (unquirked Gauss and LRM20 being the 2x? Grid Iron being 5x damage Gauss), and when you add in magical convergence, you get fragile robots.


Too late to do anything about it now. They didn't listen then, they won't listen now.

[ShinVector]

Wintersdark, on 03 August 2015 - 07:07 PM, said:

Lights are the hardest class to play, and the least rewarding.

Nahhhh..... Just that ELO MM is an A$$ and it can't give you a decent team half the time.
With the new and improved Laser HSR... Lights are pretty effective now.

[Light-Speed]

Wintersdark, on 03 August 2015 - 07:07 PM, said:

You're clearly new here, and have no damned idea what you're talking about.

1) I am an Assault pilot primarily. Assault for when I need to perform, Mediums for when I'm having fun. This is pretty common knowledge. I am a spectacularly bad light pilot, and dislike them immensely.
2) Your list? It's directly contrary to the game design principles, which state that it should not be a power progression from light>medium>heavy>assault. And it shouldn't be. Why? Because:
3) Have you looked at the queue sizes, particularly pre-cheetah release (they'll go back after the new mech smell wears off)? Lights are typically at less than 10%. Mediums around 15-20%. Heavies pushing 40%. This is a problem. Lights are the hardest class to play, and the least rewarding.

Look. In tabletop, weapons do the same list damage. Mechs have HALF the armor they do here. That means your locust loses like 10 armor to it's CT, and the Atlas loses some 60. THAT IS HOW IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE. Even assaults should be very wary of a single ERPPC, and tremble in fear of an AC20. Now, things are different here because of convergence and whatnot, and that's where problems come from, but the fact remains that there is already WAY more survivability difference between a light and an assault than there should be. Doubling armor again makes it even worse.

Let's see... Shade told you some fundamental laws of being a good light pilot and you blew him off and called him new. While declaring the fact that you have no idea how lights work.

Anyone other than me see the problem here?

To your 2), you misunderstood.

To 3): Well... lights do require a new way of playing that's never seen before elsewhere, and it's very different to most of the other playstyles you see. Add a relatively high level of difficulty, and you get a playerbase where fairly few people actually understand lights.
Then sprinkle some hopelessness on top of that because

• lights can be feast or famine
  
• the strength of the biggest asset of lights, speed, aren't expressed on paper that well

and even less people even try to understand lights.




And .

[Khobai]

Quote

or put something like a 1.5x multiplier on structure across the board.

50% more internal structure is sensible I think.

More internal structure makes critical hits matter more which is really needed. Its sad that locations get destroyed so quickly that critical hits never really impact the game much.

Increasing internal structure also avoids the problems inherent with increasing armor such as making spread weapons like LBX less useful. But if you only increase internal structure, and not armor, weapons like LBX remain useful, because theyre still hitting internal structure and causing crit damage.

Lastly by increasing structure instead of armor you dont have to change the armor points per ton. So the mech designs stay exactly the same.

Edited by Khobai, 03 August 2015 - 07:46 PM.

[Funkin Disher]

Fixing TTK? Lower rate of fire, fix heat, reduce pinpoint alphas, slow convergence. That will all help.

Double armor works out alright, its the insane amount of damage one can pump out if they can aim properly that tends to be a problem.
If you must increase armor, I'd vote increase internals instead.

Edited by Funkin Disher, 03 August 2015 - 08:01 PM.

[Rhent]

Armor has already been doubled. Internal structure quirks have been added to many mechs that have vulnerable locations. So, no we don't need to double armor or halve damage. The game already takes a long time to kill as it is.

What PGI needs to do is evaluate the damage that weapons put out in one turn, and figure out how to normalize that damage across all mechs AND to remove the double armor. Its not that hard to do that and fix a lot of the issues. It would mean weapons that fire often would do a lot less damage compared to weapons that fire a lot less for a focused shot.

The damage for heat that AC's put out is way, way, way out of whack as are most weapons compared to TT. A turn in TT is 10 seconds (source Sarna: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/BattleTech).
Table Top AC/5 = 5 damage every 10 seconds for 1 heat
MWO AC/5 = 30 damage every 10 seconds for 6 heat

Table Top Large Laser = 8 damage every 10 seconds for 8 heat
MWO Large Laser = 27.7 damage every 10 seconds for 27.5 heat

The problem is the designers of MWO Effed up base weapon damage when taking heat into consideration. They should have equalized all the damage across the weapons so that the damage output closely matched TT. They could have changed the fire rate and fractioned off the heat generated and increased the ammo to keep the values in line if they felt that the firing rates are good.

BUT NO.

EDIT: I'm playing MWO now so my LL calc could be off, dragged the formula down in Excel.

Edited by Rhent, 03 August 2015 - 08:16 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

Khobai, on 03 August 2015 - 07:39 PM, said:

50% more internal structure is sensible I think.

More internal structure makes critical hits matter more which is really needed. Its sad that locations get destroyed so quickly that critical hits never really impact the game much.

Increasing internal structure also avoids the problems inherent with increasing armor such as making spread weapons like LBX less useful. But if you only increase internal structure, and not armor, weapons like LBX remain useful, because theyre still hitting internal structure and causing crit damage.

Lastly by increasing structure instead of armor you dont have to change the armor points per ton. So the mech designs stay exactly the same.

Internal structure was also doubled at the same time the armor was. PGI at first had not realized that internal structure had also been doubled.

Koniving, on 15 July 2013 - 03:55 PM, said:

Listen to NGNG 79, 32 minutes to 40. Russ says the structure values were doubled without realizing it, and so when they told us only armor was doubled we were left with the impression that only armor was.

Due to how the maps are setup and the customization of mechs, a team that has a good Lead caller who communicates and a majority of the team focus fire, mechs will be destroyed quickly. Even if we were running stock IS mechs, it would still happen, it will not run amok from one mech to the next. Even dropping mechs from 12 to 8 would not change too much due to the loadouts.

Clan mechs may run hot but between Clan and customized IS, overall they tend to have the ability to carry more weapons, that if the timing is right, allows them to alpha them, partially due to more heatsinks as well as a flexible max heat scale. And for IS mechs to run faster and carry more, XL engines are needed so only a side torso has to be lost instead of the Clan's CT and/or both side torsos.

[Kjudoon]

The title suggestion it ignores the problem.  Grouped df weapons all hitting the same component combined with power creep multiplied by a lack of effective indirect fire options to change the strategic paradigm
If all weapons hit the same spot, all armor should be applied to the same spot.  No not really.  Just a redacto in absurdum for those defending perfect convergence.

Edited by Kjudoon, 03 August 2015 - 08:26 PM.

[One Medic Army]

Funkin Disher, on 03 August 2015 - 08:00 PM, said:

Fixing TTK? Lower rate of fire, fix heat, reduce pinpoint alphas, slow convergence. That will all help.

Double armor works out alright, its the insane amount of damage one can pump out if they can aim properly that tends to be a problem.
If you must increase armor, I'd vote increase internals instead.

You forgot lowering the heat cap, while increasing heat dissipation. Smaller alphas due to overheat threshold lowered, and heat neutral builds actually possible outside of AC boating.