90 replies to this topic

[Telmasa]

The difference is between active support & passive support.

The problem is that too many players do not recognize the difference.

[Nightshade24]

Sthtopokeon, on 09 August 2015 - 07:53 AM, said:

That is just as good. Perhaps it is even a greater contribution to your teams success than tanking damage.



I am fine with that.



You may find a hint of sarcasm in my original post. I tried to make the whole thing look simple so it would be easier to understand. Apart form that, what you said makes sense to me.



Not denying the fact that there are people out there, who know better than me. However, I say that my version of the Treb does qualify quite well for the role (however you wanna call it) I mentioned. (Source: Me, having earned 150.000 XP playing that Mech). Naming it "LRM-Boat" does not suit the Mech (Too fast, not enough ammo, not enough Launchers).

Not enough launchers? it is equal to most stock or altered heavy mechs and some of the lighter assault mechs in LRM quantity alone! Your trebuchet has the same firepower as a Catapult C1 while having suitable ammo. I do not know about you, but 900 rounds is quite plenty to call an LRM boat.

Most LRM boats have 750 ammo or higher unless it's a lighter mech- oh and PS, speed and ammo doesn't strictly mean anything about is-or is not, and LRM boat. technically speaking 2 tons of ammo is the bare min you need for an LRM boat because that has the potential to at least kill 1 mech. Which is true as some of the stock LRM boats there (ie mad dog) only has 2 tons to begin with. On the matter of speed- a 2 LRM 5 locust is an LRM boat, a 2 LRM 20 adder is an LRM boat, a 4 LRM 15 awesome is an LRM boat, sure all play differently, but they are all LRM boats and in case ranging from 150 kph to 50 kph.... hell, even if you get rid of 1 LRM 15 it could still be considered an LRM boat unless you seriously put more firepower into the other weapons...

Anyway, all the fluff out of the way:

Speed doesn't determine an LRM boat, and your treb is going the average speed of most light or medium mech LRM boats
It has slightly more then the min requirement for LRM boats- and for some pilots it's the only required ammo.
It has 2 LRM 15's, that's the same some awesomes play- most catapults and jagers and timberwolfs... and some mediums can't do it ie Hunchback 4J at 2 LRM 10's.

[IraqiWalker]

Here are the required mandatory minimum payloads (missiles launched in one salvo) for a mech to qualify as an LRM boat, per weight class:
(These mostly apply to the IS, since even the tiniest clan light can pack an LRM 40)

Lights: 10+

Mediums: 20-35

Heavies: 40-50

Assaults: 50+

That's the range of missiles you should be firing in ONE salvo, to qualify as an LRM boat. Ammo is not a good indicator, it's how many missiles you can drop on target per salvo, that qualifies you.

My BLR-1S back in the day when it was an LRM boat (It's an XL 400 SRM brawler now) fired 50 (2xLRM 15 + 2x LRM10) missiles per salvo.

Notice, having launchers too big for your tubes can hurt you here, but you still count. For example, the Stalker chassis always has launchers that are too big, but it has been one of the classic LRM boats, since closed beta.

[Josef Koba]

Translation: Everyone should run brawlers because that's how I have fun; if someone runs support mechs, they're not brawling and soaking up damage, which means I have to soak up more damage. Thus I'm dying faster, and that's not as fun for me. Especially when I see them at the end of the fight nearly unscathed.

I jest of course, but I can't agree with OP. Support mechs don't bother me, whether run by someone else or by me. First, it lets me pretend there's actually role warfare in MWO. We'd have scouts, command mechs, brawlers, mid-range mechs, and support mechs. We don't really have a lot of that. But despite that, support mechs do have a use. They keep the enemy pinned down, disrupt formations, and deny avenues of approach and terrain. They chip away at the enemy's armor allowing for quicker, more effective kills by brawlers and the like.

Even if I granted the mathematical theory of numbers of mechs on a firing line determines victory, which I don't, it would have to apply to all mechs, of all roles. This is because in many cases, at least equal to the example of support mechs being out of the fray, a large portion of the team is not engaging the enemy either. Whether that's because they're hill humping, jump sniping, or being blocked by other mechs. Or just...not engaging at all because they're cowering behind a building (possibly because of the much maligned LRM support mech on the OPFOR). Mechs of all roles often refuse combat. As such, they're also invalid. What bothers me worse than seeing an untouched LRM Warhawk on my team is seeing an untouched brawler running around by himself at the end of a match, which I see quite regularly. On the contrary, I WANT to see the support mechs on my team relatively untouched. If they're the last mech standing and they are bingo ammo and have barely a scratch, that tells me they at least attempted to do their job. More than anything, I'm bothered by a lack of aggression and situational awareness by my teams. The "cowardly" LRM mech is the least of my worries.

I would hate to see all mechs devolve into some direct fire brawler type builds. It would be boring. Much has already been written on these forums about how to effectively run support mechs (LRMs in particular), so we needn't get into it here. Suffice it to say that they are hard to master, and sometimes even the masters end a match not having contributed greatly to victory. But we can say the same of any class of mech and any pilot. I've had matches in my most effective direct fire builds, mechs in which I have KDRs over 3 and a solid WL ratio, where I didn't even do 100 damage and died whimpering like a school girl with a skinned knee. I don't feel like there are a lot of absolutes in terms of builds and styles in this game. I've seen literally EVERYTHING be effective in the right hands and right circumstances.

[Wreckreation]

I agree with the last post. It does not matter what type mech you're in. We all have had good and bad games in the same mech. The difference between the two are the variables in a given match. Even with the perfect build for a given map and objective, you can still die quickly if you're unfortunate enough to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[Lily from animove]

good teams focus fire, it would make no sense at all if yo have 8 mechs in the frontline and 4 firing from behind or 12 in the front line, they pick one after the other anways.

Some snipers in the back can still help you to surpress opponents, or shoot the damn UAV's abve your team which seems to be invisible to 11/12 puggers. Or to see flank maneuvers better die to their angle of view compared to the frontline mechs.

It is always very situational what is good or what not. A light sniper on caustic in the southeastern zone can be very annoying since he can scramble a lot tactics in the circly racing.

DavidHurricane, on 08 August 2015 - 01:36 PM, said:

I must disagree. There are some people (including myself) who dominate just doing this.

Granted I do other things too, but that isn't the point.

honestly its easier to dominate this way, just because you will be never prime target making it way more safe for you to rack up damage and kills before you get under fire yourself. Dominating this way is not because the one was good, its also because your team tanked for you.

[LordBraxton]

OP is 100% correct and anyone trying to justify their 'sniper' or 'support' build hiding 200m+ in the back is a baddie trying to justify their ****** playstyle. If you 'dominate,' from the rear, you are using your teammates to artificially inflate your score. It's ok for your place to be behind the line mechs, but your place has to be less than 100m behind them. preferably 50m behind them. Anything else and you are a selfish coward who is handicapping his team.

DavidHurricane, on 08 August 2015 - 01:36 PM, said:

I must disagree. There are some people (including myself) who dominate just doing this.

Granted I do other things too, but that isn't the point.

you have no point. or if you do you chose not to express it... you don't 'dominate,' anything if you are hiding more than 100m behind your team. you are just artificially inflating your damage while hurting your win\loss

Edited by LordBraxton, 10 August 2015 - 05:55 AM.

[Wildstreak]

This OP is off the mark, just putting up the broken Griffin build was proof as is not understanding roles.

[Anger Management]

also you must know that no mech build will reign supreme on every map in the game. a lazerboat is terrible on hot maps. lrms not so good in urban terrain but invaluable on open maps. ballistics good all around weapons but u can get murdered on an open map without lrm support. there is no 1 build that wins on every map.

[990Dreams]

LordBraxton, on 10 August 2015 - 05:54 AM, said:

you have no point. or if you do you chose not to express it... you don't 'dominate,' anything if you are hiding more than 100m behind your team. you are just artificially inflating your damage while hurting your win\loss

My point is that I have killed five Mechs solo before hanging behind because PUGs are often too stupid to notice enemies. Meanwhile I have a higher vantage point and the brains to help them.

It may not work for you, hanging back doesn't work for everyone. There are very few people who can actually aid their team hanging back over 270 meters.

Lily from animove, on 10 August 2015 - 05:28 AM, said:

honestly its easier to dominate this way, just because you will be never prime target making it way more safe for you to rack up damage and kills before you get under fire yourself. Dominating this way is not because the one was good, its also because your team tanked for you.

I've won or helped win matches by hanging back. I've also taken a back-point and taken more damage than some assaults who were tanking. I've yet to lose a match because I was hanging back (and trying).

Also, there comes a point in a match when you have to go forward too. I understand that, and that is what makes the difference between a waste of a unit slot and a good support dude.

[Ken Harkin]

People do not play the way I want them to so I am going to pout.

I thought I was addressing this years ago with my kids.

[IraqiWalker]

LordBraxton, on 10 August 2015 - 05:54 AM, said:

OP is 100% correct and anyone trying to justify their 'sniper' or 'support' build hiding 200m+ in the back is a baddie trying to justify their ****** playstyle. If you 'dominate,' from the rear, you are using your teammates to artificially inflate your score. It's ok for your place to be behind the line mechs, but your place has to be less than 100m behind them. preferably 50m behind them. Anything else and you are a selfish coward who is handicapping his team.



you have no point. or if you do you chose not to express it... you don't 'dominate,' anything if you are hiding more than 100m behind your team. you are just artificially inflating your damage while hurting your win\loss

Sorry Braxton, but you are absolutely wrong. In the biblical sense of the word "absolute". Dual Gauss mechs are best at 600+ meters away from the enemy. LRM builds are perfect at around 500 meters from the enemy.

Large Laser builds are fantastic at 500+ meters from the enemy.

There are so many different styles of play, with their own benefits, and downsides. Just face tanking and charging headlong is one style of play, and by no means is it the best, the optimal, or the only way to play.

[Nightshade24]

IraqiWalker, on 10 August 2015 - 04:58 AM, said:

Here are the required mandatory minimum payloads (missiles launched in one salvo) for a mech to qualify as an LRM boat, per weight class:
(These mostly apply to the IS, since even the tiniest clan light can pack an LRM 40)

Lights: 10+

Mediums: 20-35

Heavies: 40-50

Assaults: 50+

That's the range of missiles you should be firing in ONE salvo, to qualify as an LRM boat. Ammo is not a good indicator, it's how many missiles you can drop on target per salvo, that qualifies you.

My BLR-1S back in the day when it was an LRM boat (It's an XL 400 SRM brawler now) fired 50 (2xLRM 15 + 2x LRM10) missiles per salvo.

Notice, having launchers too big for your tubes can hurt you here, but you still count. For example, the Stalker chassis always has launchers that are too big, but it has been one of the classic LRM boats, since closed beta.

you sure "heavies" is 40+?

What are the 4 med las (or less/ none) and 2 LRM 15 catapults out there count as?
Or the 6 LRM 5 catapult A1? Kinda sorry- but most IS LRM mechs I know rarely run 40+... catapult... jagermech...etc. Besides fans of the catapult C4 of course...

[IraqiWalker]

Nightshade24, on 10 August 2015 - 06:13 PM, said:

you sure "heavies" is 40+?

What are the 4 med las (or less/ none) and 2 LRM 15 catapults out there count as?
Or the 6 LRM 5 catapult A1? Kinda sorry- but most IS LRM mechs I know rarely run 40+... catapult... jagermech...etc. Besides fans of the catapult C4 of course...

You're kinda right. I made a slight mistake. Heavies are 35-50

The 6 LRM 5 barely qualifies as an LRM boat. Not because of the salvo, but the annoyance factor. As for the 2xLRM 15 Catapults.

As for 2xLRM15 heavies. They barely qualify. Simply because a medium can pack as much in a salvo. The C1 is more efficient with 2xLRM15s, because of the 6 ton saving, but I hesitate to consider it a proper "heavy LRM boat".

Those salvo counts I have up are mainly for learning what's an optimal payload for that weight class. If you're bringing an LRM boat in the heavy slot, it really should have at least 35+ tubes.

[Nightshade24]

IraqiWalker, on 10 August 2015 - 06:27 PM, said:

You're kinda right. I made a slight mistake. Heavies are 35-50

The 6 LRM 5 barely qualifies as an LRM boat. Not because of the salvo, but the annoyance factor. As for the 2xLRM 15 Catapults.

As for 2xLRM15 heavies. They barely qualify. Simply because a medium can pack as much in a salvo. The C1 is more efficient with 2xLRM15s, because of the 6 ton saving, but I hesitate to consider it a proper "heavy LRM boat".

Those salvo counts I have up are mainly for learning what's an optimal payload for that weight class. If you're bringing an LRM boat in the heavy slot, it really should have at least 35+ tubes.

eh, debatable... one thing about the C1 has that the trebuchet doesn't have is armour, ammo, and heat efficiency.


Saying the C1 is barely or not an LRM boat is just like saying the atlas isn't a good brawler (juggernaut) mech because the orion could do identical builds. (for eg most atlas builds rather run... 2+ SRM 6 (or LRM 15+), AC 20, 4 medium lasers.... I also saw some centurions doing builds simular to some victors...

Also another thing is that the 40+ or 35+ rule kinda ruins some of the charm of an LRM boat (as by lore terms, an LRM boat can have back up weapons- sometimes being equal to the LRM firepower, such as the mad dog prime with 2 LRM 20's, 2 large pulse lasers, and 2 medium pulse lasers). Of course the guys that do 40+ on a heavy are an LRM boat but those who do 30 are still in my eyes a LRM boater. (that and also standard engine LRM boaters for heavies find it nearly impossible to do a 40+ build and barely 35'er. without being ridiculously slow or have no back up weapons/ jumpjets in return.)

Part of what I hate about LRM boats is that the deffinition for each role is very vague and for good reason as different weightclasses and equipment like ECM, jumpjets, etc change how an LRM boat performs drasticly... hence why I find LRM boats so fun, got LRM boats ranging from 150 kph to 40 kph, LRM boats with enough to bloat out the sun or just enough to punch the CT... PPC's or small lasers... etc.

[IraqiWalker]

Nightshade24, on 10 August 2015 - 09:10 PM, said:

eh, debatable... one thing about the C1 has that the trebuchet doesn't have is armour, ammo, and heat efficiency.


Saying the C1 is barely or not an LRM boat is just like saying the atlas isn't a good brawler (juggernaut) mech because the orion could do identical builds. (for eg most atlas builds rather run... 2+ SRM 6 (or LRM 15+), AC 20, 4 medium lasers.... I also saw some centurions doing builds simular to some victors...

Also another thing is that the 40+ or 35+ rule kinda ruins some of the charm of an LRM boat (as by lore terms, an LRM boat can have back up weapons- sometimes being equal to the LRM firepower, such as the mad dog prime with 2 LRM 20's, 2 large pulse lasers, and 2 medium pulse lasers). Of course the guys that do 40+ on a heavy are an LRM boat but those who do 30 are still in my eyes a LRM boater. (that and also standard engine LRM boaters for heavies find it nearly impossible to do a 40+ build and barely 35'er. without being ridiculously slow or have no back up weapons/ jumpjets in return.)

Part of what I hate about LRM boats is that the deffinition for each role is very vague and for good reason as different weightclasses and equipment like ECM, jumpjets, etc change how an LRM boat performs drasticly... hence why I find LRM boats so fun, got LRM boats ranging from 150 kph to 40 kph, LRM boats with enough to bloat out the sun or just enough to punch the CT... PPC's or small lasers... etc.

The difference is that brawling builds aren't based on salvo size. Especially because they are mainly PP builds. LRM builds are, because the weapons splash damage all over the place.

Those numbers show what a good LRM boat for each weight class should have. By all accounts, you can call that 2xLRM 15 C1 an LRM boat, but i'd rather have the 4xLRM 10 A1 instead.

Also, I never said an LRM boat shouldn't have back up weapons. They should always have back up weapons. Like that MDD build you mentioned, which is still packing a 40 salvo size. (yes clan tech does it infinitely easier.)

[LoboSG]

if there were 3 lrm mechs, then the rest of the 9 better be fighting in their lrm range. if you left them behind to brawl on your own, it's your own fault.

12 vs 12: the key is how many mech to how many mech per engagement. It's not like all 12 line up properly and then start shooting.

If you have 3 lrm mechs, all your engagements should be you (and whoever next to you) + 3 lrm mechs, ganging on how many you are engaging.

[ShinVector]

Sthtopokeon, on 08 August 2015 - 08:02 AM, said:

If one person decides to "stay behind and give support" nothing will change for the enemy team. They will still be under fire from 12 mechs.

Q: But, but ... I like my lurmz.

LURMZboats please feel stay far behind from the front lines and play your 'support' role.

The Jenner would like to touch you inppropriately and watch your XL engines explode....

https://youtu.be/qa3F26nJwNM?t=3m18s

Edited by ShinVector, 10 August 2015 - 10:33 PM.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

LoboSG, on 10 August 2015 - 09:51 PM, said:

if there were 3 lrm mechs, then the rest of the 9 better be fighting in their lrm range. if you left them behind to brawl on your own, it's your own fault.

I disagree, sorta. Given, the fight should be taking place so that the enemies being engaged are within LRM range. At least, once the snipers are done trading gauss and PPC fire, and it comes time to FIGHT, yeah. Gotcha. But is it the maneuver team's responsibility to stay within range of the missile boats, or the missile boats' responsibility to keep up with the maneuver team? I'd argue the latter to be the case. If you are going to have indirect fire support, you had better be managing your movement to contact within its range. But then that's why IRL howitzers have wheels (or tracks), and mortar platoons stay REALLY mobile.

Quote

12 vs 12: the key is how many mech to how many mech per engagement. It's not like all 12 line up properly and then start shooting.

IRL moment: 3-to-1 overmatch. Movement to contact without at least a 3:1 overmatch on your enemy, not counting fire support, is a really hard sell for conventional types. Not sayin' it doesn't happen, but you don't go planning to meet your enemy on equal terms.

That's not really an option in MWO. You can pick your battles, but the map isn't very big on even the BIGGEST map out there. You an count on the enemy's buddies coming to his rescue (or at least stumbling into a crossfire) if you engage him at all, even with a squirrel on his Steiner recon lance. I'd rather see all 12 of the enemy mechs, and know then where they all are, than see 3 or 4 of them, and wonder where the rest are going to come crashing down on me from (while I'm all narrow FoV trying to snipe the gauss rifles off this KGC, or whatever).

The game's origins in BT had us in 12-mech companies, divided into 3x 4-mech lances. Those lances each had a role, and the company's mission was one that was accomplished by each lance focusing on its role and doing it well. That also doesn't hold well in MWO, unless we like to lose. But a maybe 2-mech fire support team with an ECM support mech for scouting and/or spotting, seems do-able, as long as you're into that level of organization. Say, as IS mechs go, a JM6-A and a CPLT-C1, escorted by a RVN-3L (maybe the meta 2x ERLL one, sure), might do the trick. For a mixed team, maybe a single EBJ-C (or other EBJ with at least the two torso missile spots at LRM-15+) and an ADR or SHC with ECM and missiles, if you need faster support with a little more survivability once the dookie hits the fan.

Just my $.02.

[Nightshade24]

IraqiWalker, on 10 August 2015 - 09:28 PM, said:

The difference is that brawling builds aren't based on salvo size. Especially because they are mainly PP builds. LRM builds are, because the weapons splash damage all over the place.

Those numbers show what a good LRM boat for each weight class should have. By all accounts, you can call that 2xLRM 15 C1 an LRM boat, but i'd rather have the 4xLRM 10 A1 instead.

Also, I never said an LRM boat shouldn't have back up weapons. They should always have back up weapons. Like that MDD build you mentioned, which is still packing a 40 salvo size. (yes clan tech does it infinitely easier.)

4 LRM 10 A1?
What kind of A1 are you running O_o


For an A1 it isn't hard to get something that another thousand players got on there A1 but THAT A1 is one of the most unique 'serious' builds I've seen yet...