38 replies to this topic

[Audacious Aubergine]

I'll just leave this here

Edited by FreebirthToad18999, 19 August 2015 - 04:25 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

LOADED, on 19 August 2015 - 03:15 AM, said:

wasn't that x pulse laser?

You might be correct, but I believe this was before X-Pulse happened. I can't confirm what I'm saying. Though X-Pulse lasers would be more likely.

[InspectorG]

Archangel Dino, on 18 August 2015 - 08:24 PM, said:

What is the point of these things (lore-wise and MWO-wise)?

I'm really struggling with understanding their usefulness. Why on Earth - or the galaxy - would I mount a 6-ton Large Pulse Laser that can only shoot 600m with effective range when I can mount a 4-ton ER-Large Laser that can pew pew 800m away?

What's the catch? What were Pulse Lasers like in the TT and the lore, and what were their advantages in both the TT and MWO?

They go 'WUB'...all you need to know.

Wub is better than no wub.

FreebirthToad18999, on 19 August 2015 - 04:24 AM, said:

I'll just leave this here

Awesome!

But it needs this song for the sample:

[Koniving]

Archangel Dino, on 18 August 2015 - 08:24 PM, said:

What is the point of these things (lore-wise and MWO-wise)?

I'm really struggling with understanding their usefulness. Why on Earth - or the galaxy - would I mount a 6-ton Large Pulse Laser that can only shoot 600m with effective range when I can mount a 4-ton ER-Large Laser that can pew pew 800m away?

What's the catch? What were Pulse Lasers like in the TT and the lore, and what were their advantages in both the TT and MWO?

In MWO, the advantage of pulse lasers is a significantly shorter beam time (less face time meaning you can deal the damage faster and pull away to take hits safely, better for hit-and-run attacks too) and because of this shorter beam time, you can 'reload' faster. The other aspect is they deliver more damage per hit than their "standard" counter parts.

In tabletop, a standard laser is more of a zap of energy varying from "0.1 seconds" to "1 second" depending on the variant/subvariant of the laser category it is in. (For example the Rassal Blue Beam by Arcturan Arms is a blue-colored medium laser that deals its heavy damage in a single 0.2 second zap, but the heat is immense [3 units all at once +1 more due to typically poor cooling jackets] and other issues like shorting out consoles, disrupting the user's sensors, etc... not to mention that it needs to be 'pre-charged' before fired. A more typical medium laser such as Fusigon Heavy Weaponry's "Omicron 3,000" is a medium laser that needs to be shot 3 times to make the 5 damage for the same 3 heat.) Variants are not encompassed in standard tabletop (as the frequency of rolling to check for hits is varied, and the amount of detail in rules needed to account for all 44 unique variants and 60+ total variants of standard medium laser....would need its own 70 page book.

So in comparison, in tabletop the pulse lasers give you increased accuracy, especially against small objects like infantry, vehicles, and other things with high agility. This increased accuracy comes in the rolls being in your favor typically by "1" (or more) to each pulse laser weapon's to-hit chances. Sometimes the difference between a hit, a damn good hit, and a miss is simply "1". The accuracy bonus is given because in lore, pulse lasers are "laser machine guns" that actually do 'less' damage per 'zap' but fires each zap so rapidly. When all of these 'zaps' (or 'wubs' as they are called in MWO) hit the same area, the collective damage is superior to a standard laser. Sometimes they are depicted as akin to the rapidly fired "laser Gatling gun" in Fallout 3. Sometimes more along the lines of "Disruptor" weaponry in Star Trek: Deep Space Nine (in shooting short Star Wars blaster-rifle-like 'lines' of light with a bright glow to each). The second is heavily demonstrated in Mechwarrior 4's intro during the Mad Dog's last stand. (Youtube link).

The reduced "accurate range" for pulse lasers (i.e. 180 meters medium pulse, 270 meters medium laser) is due in part to the fact that a pulse laser needs many successive hits in 'about the same area' to deliver that slightly higher damage (6 damage medium pulse, 5 damage medium laser). The additional heat also comes from the rapid fire (4 heat medium pulse, 3 heat medium laser).

When considered, this makes a lot of sense. Imagine you have a medium laser where you need to score maybe 2 or 3 hits to the same section of the enemy. Your chances of hitting at 0 meters to 270 meters is about identical, since the laser is instant and the beam is almost always in milliseconds. Now imagine you have a medium laser machine gun (pulse laser), your chances of hitting the same limb of the enemy up to 180 meters are much higher than your chances of hitting with any other weapon.... but now take that same laser machine gun, knowing that each 'zap' has only a fraction of the medium laser beam's power... and consider you might have to get '20' zaps onto the same body part.

In terms of large lasers, the average seems to be 1 or 2 shots with an accurate extreme hit or miss range that kinda pushes it at about 450 meters to get 8 damage for 8 heat. The large pulse laser typically fires about 10 shots to get 9 damage for 10 heat, with up to a 300 meter accurate extreme range and a significantly higher chance of hitting at least some of the firepower.

(Far as range, think of the clouds of dust and dirt and sand you kick up when moving in the sand or in a pond. Now imagine that on most places. Now imagine smoke from fires that started when you seared the trees with lasers, or the inferno caused when an ER PPC hit the ground and in a matter of 30 seconds that fire has consumed nearly 120 meters of grass and small brush in fire. Now consider that laser efficiency is reduced by "dust, smoke, other particles in the air and even aerosols." Now take into consideration the extreme difference in scale in between Battletech and MWO... See below.)

Spoiler

Consider that this tank's larger wheels are 9 meters tall.

The Battletech 55 ton Shadowhawk is 9.63 meters tall. The Atlas is "towering" at "just barely over 13 meters tall."

A Wolverine lifting the rear end of a tank.


On the left is a 55 ton tank. In the center is Battletech's scale of the Shadowhawk. On the right is MWO's scale of the Shadowhawk.

MWO's Shadowhawk is nearly 15 meters tall. MWO's Commando is 9.7 meters tall. (BT's version is barely over 8 meters tall).


That thing could probably throw tanks.
So consider this: Using one tank to attack another tank on Battlefield or War Thunder or World of Tanks at a distance of about 200 meters.... it's really hard to see that tank; in fact you could easily lose track of it! Now realize I'm talking about the 10.2 meter long, 3.63 meter tall Panzer Maus 188 tonne tank.
Do the accurate ranges make a bit more sense?

Far as MWO -- PGI took the numbers and didn't take much understanding to it... Which is why IS autocannons are single shot (when all autocannons are described in virtually every source except one 'wiki' page on Sarna as "machine guns with a kick", "burst and automatic fire", "Each cassette, mislabelled 'round' on most ammo screens due to screen space, contains anywhere from 4 to 100 bullets and counts as a single tick or 'round', of which anywhere from 6 to 45 of these cassettes come in each allotted ton of ammunition." This is why MWO's SRMs are dumbfired (even though they are guided; just not locked and SRMs are notoriously not 'good' tracking guidance)... made streaks defy physics (the launcher won't let you fire unless it's guaranteed to hit; the actual missile has nothing special about it other than the lock-on sequence is the computer deciding on the best 'flight paths' to give to the missiles to make sure every single one will hit with 100% certainty....and it'll slap you with a "NO~!" if it decides there's even a 1% chance of missing; beyond the ability to select pre-designed flight paths there's nothing that actually separates streaks from standard SRMs.)

To add: There's a free (not free to play, simply free) game on Steam called Sunrider: Mask of Arcadius. The plot's pretty basic and the western-anime style isn't for everyone. However, while its story is delivered in a visual novel format, the actual gameplay is a take-turn strategy game that takes place on a hexagonal board, with mechs and starships that are armed with "kinetic" weaponry (autocannons), defensive guns (machine guns, AMS), lasers (Long range, typically 3 shots but high damage), pulse lasers (up to 40 shots, each shot is weak but many hits can do incredible damage), missiles (BT LRMs) and big missiles (BT Arrow IV TAG-guided artillery missile). The design of its tabletop-esque experience was inspired by "a prominent mecha boardgame." (My brief review). It's super simplified compared to BT or even megamek, easy enough to get into, and the 'readout' can give you all the gritty details (which each weapon type is unique per mecha and ship, so while the kinetic weapon of this mecha acts like a 1-shot cannon, it acts like a shotgun for that mecha, etc. Actually one unit's kinetic weapon looks, behaves, and hits like a cross between a Gauss Rifle and a PPC.)

Edited by Koniving, 20 August 2015 - 07:26 PM.

[Night Thastus]

Pros:

Do more damage per second. (Less time to do their full damage)
Do more overall damage then their beam equivalent (And for the same amount of heat!)
Higher crit chance
More accurate (In the lore)

Cons:
Weigh more
Lower range

[Archangel Dino]

Koniving, on 20 August 2015 - 05:55 PM, said:

So in comparison, in tabletop the pulse lasers give you increased accuracy, especially against small objects like infantry, vehicles, and other things with high agility. This increased accuracy comes in the rolls being in your favor typically by "1" (or more) to each pulse laser weapon's to-hit chances. Sometimes the difference between a hit, a damn good hit, and a miss is simply "1". The accuracy bonus is given because in lore, pulse lasers are "laser machine guns" that actually do 'less' damage per 'zap' but fires each zap so rapidly. When all of these 'zaps' (or 'wubs' as they are called in MWO) hit the same area, the collective damage is superior to a standard laser. Sometimes they are depicted as akin to the rapidly fired "laser Gatling gun" in Fallout 3.

What I'm trying to understand is WHY do they have more accuracy than a Beam Laser? Lasers are amongst the most, if not the most, accurate weapons that exist. So, why would a gatling laser be more accurate than a beam if they both fire using lasers?

[Koniving]

Archangel Dino, on 22 August 2015 - 12:22 PM, said:

What I'm trying to understand is WHY do they have more accuracy than a Beam Laser? Lasers are amongst the most, if not the most, accurate weapons that exist. So, why would a gatling laser be more accurate than a beam if they both fire using lasers?

Firing frequency.

Consider this.
Weapon A is a bolt action rifle.
You aim. You fire. You charge the bolt. You aim. You fire.
Accuracy may be high per shot, but you need that perfect chance and so easily an aware enemy can side step your attack or use cover.

Weapon B is an automatic machine gun that doesn't have any recoil or spread (when stationary).
You pull the trigger, and while it fires you line it up on the enemy.
Accuracy per 'zap' is irrelevant, because you can do so many (and have to).

If your target is small and close, that bolt action rifle could miss. It takes time to get it back into action, sometimes more than 6 seconds. The Rassal Blue Beam can't fire for 8 seconds after it's been fired! But that machine gun, even if you missed a few times you can keep firing and 'pull' it onto the target.

Consider in MWO the difference between an AC/5 and an AC/2 -- in fact it is the perfect example!
Use an AC/5 to try and hit something. You might hit, you might not. Limit yourself to 2 bullets and try to hit a light. Can you hit both on the same body part? Now try the AC/2. Give yourself 6 bullets, and remember you only need to land half of them on the same body part; the rest are simply ignored.

Assuming you have 10 seconds to do it in, which would you have a better chance of success?

Repeat the experiment giving yourself 1.5 seconds. A single AC/5 bullet (5 damage), to 3 AC/2 bullets (6 damage).
Make sure the light is seriously trying to get by undamaged. In MWO it'd only take less than 1.2 seconds to fire all 3 AC/2 rounds. The AC/5 might not even be ready to fire again in 1.5 seconds (ignoring quirks).
Which is more accurate? That is to say -- which is more likely to hit the target at all?
The hit/miss AC/5... or the X in 3 chance AC/2?

More into pulse lasers and such.

Spoiler

Using the MPL as an example, you get +1 accuracy (or more appropriately -1 difficulty to hit) at "roughly" 180 meters. Beyond "roughly" 180 meters, you get -1 accuracy (+1 difficulty to hit, a change of '2' layers of difficulty). That is to reflect the rapid fire nature of the pulse lasers. (Roughly is because each hex is 30 meters, and some variants are better or worse; for example the self-named medium pulse laser by Blankenburg Technologies manufactured on Terra [Earth] is stated to be accurate to 200 meters [Ideal War]. The Hellion PII, manufactured on Andurien and Westover of Marik space by Andurien Defense Industries is rated for only 162 meters, due to its higher than normal volume of fire requiring more 'zaps' to cut through to the full 6 damage, at the benefit of an improved cooling jacket, reducing the overall heat by 1 unit [making it an MPL that does 6 damage for the ML's 3 heat, but its accuracy bonus is gone at 162 meters [the range is impossible to do in tabletop, just a lore-thing; an accurate portrayal would include the "Poor Targeting (Long)" quirk not for bad targeting system but to account for the spread of damage beyond 162 meters]. [Also Ideal War.)

In comparison, the medium laser is -/+0 accuracy (pilot gunnery skill -/+0 difficulty to hit)

For a bit more on accuracy...

Spoiler

Note that the tallest battlemech until 3055 is 14.4 meters. (That is taller than MWO's Hunchback but shorter than MWO's Centurion).
It would be the Executioner.

Note that the Atlas in MWO is 17 meters, but in BT it is between 13.1 and 13.8 meters (depending on the author; pre-WizKidz. During WizKidz they made it over 27 meters tall....yeah. This tells you what I think of their 'realism'.).

In this clip you'll see distances and people at those distances. Consider that the distance to 10 meters is about the size of smaller medium mechs (including the short Hunchback [late 8 to early 9 meters] and Shadowhawk (9.63 meters). Making mechs smaller than people think (and the larger mechs significantly smaller than they are in MWO). Now consider that the farthest line (which sadly the video doesn't have anyone ther and if this wasn't a PS3 game I'd have taken my own screenshots) is 100 meters at which you can have difficulty seeing the figures. Would still be able to see the mech well off to maybe 700 meters without zooming but it'd be pretty hard for some.

It's mentioned repeatedly about the difficulty of hitting something as small and agile as a Battlemech at great distances.


Big, but not huge.

Now imagine your medium laser was more like MWO's Gauss rifle. You line up your shot, pull the trigger and a laser beam is fired. It only takes being off target by a centimeter on your screen to miss completely, something likely to happen if the target is moving (which includes being stationary/standing as they can still lean or even do handstands! [TechManual; cockpit controls Pg 40. "Of course, BattleMechs can do more than just turn left or right, or move backwards and forwards. Talented MechWarriors have gotten assault ’Mechs to skip sideways to avoid missiles, executed handstands under carefully controlled conditions, and otherwise tapped some of the often-unused potential of a BattleMech’s limbs for complicated movements."]).

In comparison, a BT pulse laser is more like MWO's Clan UAC/20, of the 4 bullets you only need to get 'some' of them on target to count as a hit. But the likelihood of getting say 2 of the 4 shots on the same body part of an aware target beyond a certain distance (as they get smaller and smaller in your view and the slightest movements have more extreme results) is...unlikely.

William H. Keith Jr., novelist and first lore-writer for BT, wrote this:
"A 'Mech's armor combined with its movement means that even the intense burst of energy from a pulse laser tends to be distributed over a large section of armor at greater than effective ranges and damage at those ranges is, consequentially, reduced."
[Source]

Tabletop isn't meant to encompass single shots when referring to lasers and pulse lasers. Just all use of the weapon within 10 seconds when remembering that the mechs are moving, dodging, deflecting, and fighting within those 10 seconds; piloted by real people with real thoughts and real desires to live. Sadly tabletop has a pinpoint, frontloaded damage issue in 'simplifying' the rolls for registering hits... otherwise it would be a lot more spread out. Basically if tabletop didn't simplify and followed the lore exactly , rather than an accuracy bonus, you'd just have more chances to roll hits.

Glancing/direct blows helps with this in how it favors pulse lasers even further, since it is always assumed that some pulses had missed while adjusting aim.

(That should cover it. Final edit.)

Edited by Koniving, 24 August 2015 - 09:51 AM.

[Tarl Cabot]

Archangel Dino, on 22 August 2015 - 12:22 PM, said:

What I'm trying to understand is WHY do they have more accuracy than a Beam Laser? Lasers are amongst the most, if not the most, accurate weapons that exist. So, why would a gatling laser be more accurate than a beam if they both fire using lasers?

The Pulse Laser. Standard class Lasers operate by firing a continuous beam of focused coherent light at a target, damaging the target through extreme heat buildup, and are used much like a scalpel. The drawback to this is dispersing particles from the target will be kicked up in the path of the beam therefore weakening it. Pulse technology “pulses” the beam in short micro-burst while computer targeting keeps the aim true. The rapid fire pulses allow debris to disperse between cycling.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 25 August 2015 - 06:56 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

Tarl Cabot, on 25 August 2015 - 06:53 AM, said:

The Pulse Laser. Standard class Lasers operate by firing a continuous beam of focused coherent light at a target, damaging the target through extreme heat buildup, and are used much like a scalpel. The drawback to this is dispersing particles from the target will be kicked up in the path of the beam therefore weakening it. Pulse technology “pulses” the beam in short micro-burst while computer targeting keeps the aim true. The rapid fire pulses allow debris to disperse between cycling.

That addresses the damage. Not the accuracy.


The explanation for accuracy is that you dish out a lot more pulses than beams, allowing you to hit your target a lot more frequently than with a beam. Especially potent against infantry, who can see the beam coming, and start spreading. While the pulses are a lot harder to dodge, since you basically spray, and pray.

[Archangel Dino]

IraqiWalker, on 26 August 2015 - 03:46 AM, said:

That addresses the damage. Not the accuracy.


The explanation for accuracy is that you dish out a lot more pulses than beams, allowing you to hit your target a lot more frequently than with a beam. Especially potent against infantry, who can see the beam coming, and start spreading. While the pulses are a lot harder to dodge, since you basically spray, and pray.

Interesting. So, I'd assume that since there are more pulses than beams, the total duration of time for the beams would be longer for pulses than for standard beams. In other words, it would take 1 second to fire all of the pulses of a medium pulse, and 0.7 seconds to fire the beam of a medium laser.

If this is true, then that would mean that MWO does it wrong, because pulse lasers have a shorter duration than standard lasers in the game.

[IraqiWalker]

Archangel Dino, on 28 August 2015 - 12:19 PM, said:

Interesting. So, I'd assume that since there are more pulses than beams, the total duration of time for the beams would be longer for pulses than for standard beams. In other words, it would take 1 second to fire all of the pulses of a medium pulse, and 0.7 seconds to fire the beam of a medium laser.

If this is true, then that would mean that MWO does it wrong, because pulse lasers have a shorter duration than standard lasers in the game.

You're missing a simple element here: TT turns.

In tabletop the turn is 10 seconds. So while the pulse lasers fire anywhere between 7 to probably 100 pulses in those 10 seconds. TT gives them the average damage of 6. On the other hand, MLs fire a singular beam that burns for a set duration (some ML variants will fire up to 4 times within 10 seconds. Others will fire only once. The Rasal Blue is a great example. It is probably the single most destructive medium laser ever. Sadly, it has a ridiculously long cool down time compared to the others, normalizing it's damage over a 5 second period down to 5 points.

Basically, if we wanted to be honest, and technical, a medium pulse laser can dish a lot more damage than 6 points in 10 seconds. However, in a TT turn, the mechs are twisting, dancing, prancing, shielding, cartwheeling, and all other shenanigans that are accounted for as happening within that 10 second period. Hence why damage is spread, and weapons are classified by their approximate damage.

Another example is the Pontiac 100. It's an AC 20 that fires over 100 rounds in 10 seconds. Each round dealing 0.2 damage. Realistically speaking, no pilot should be able to hold all 100 rounds onto their target. Meaning that it would be dealing a lot less damage. However, it's normalized in TT as 20 points of damage per use.

TL;DR: TT damage numbers aren't really accurate, in terms of realism. They give fixed approximations of damage, and we use those.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

Accuracy? No idea why that'd be.

It's not really relevant to MWO gameplay anyhow, but I certainly understand the curiosity. Perhaps, in an effort to encourage their use in TT gameplay, the accuracy buff was added to give them an advantage over standard or ER lasers of the same class. Otherwise, I'd just as well carry the longer-ranged versions, and have the added flexibility in my mech.

The MWO advantages have been explained pretty well. DPS rules the day, and pulse lasers are great for it. Typical engagement ranges, save maybe on Alpine Peaks, are pretty consistent in the public queue. Synergy of the cLPL with the cERML is a BIG factor in a lot of laser vomit builds, too.

And that's an interesting point with some IRL background. Not long ago, I read a white paper by some colonel at one of hte US Army's schools. It was a criticism (in part) of the terminal performance of the NATO standard 5.56mm rifle cartridge. He compiled some data concerning common engagement ranges in Afghanistan, and then compared it to some of the considerations for that 5.56 round. What he found was that the 550+ meter engagement range was outside the ideal range for proper terminal performance of the bullet. When he compared observed data for the 7.62, 6.5 (Grendel), and 6.8 (Remington SPC), he found (NO SURPRISE) the 5.56 to be sorely lacking. And it went on to recommend considering a change to the 6.5 or 6.8 cartridge. THE POINT? Talking about what a weapon can do, in a vacuum, is all fine and dandy, but we simply MUST consider how a weapon is used and under what circumstances, if we're to have a meaningful conversation about its viability.

For the engagements in MWO, pulse lasers are generally more effective at winning the DPS contest than are non-pulse lasers. Great advice from metamechs for building laser vomit: (I'm paraphrasing) boat as many as you can without breaking ghost heat, then fill in the available tonnage with heat sinks. Adjust as necessary.

[Zelumbras]

Maybe i can shed some light on the accuracy thing from a technical point of view and why pulse lasers are used in industrial laser cutters for different metals:

As soon as the laser hits the metal, the latter is heated up immensly and partly vaporizes around the point where the beam has the strongest focus. This also means that the metal around the vaporized part is heated up a lot but not vaporized. Generally, you will get a lot of smoke as well, which slightly diffuses and obstrucs the laser beam so it won't hit the metal surface on maximum focus any more.
In other words, a continous laser beam will produce a relatively wide cavity on the surface and you will loose cutting power by heating up the metal around that cavity. But you don't want to heat up the metal and melt it around the focus point. Instead, you want to vaporize it fast in a defined spot so you get a deep and clear cut!

This is where the pulsing technique comes into play. Instead of a continous beam, you will fire very short pulses in quick succession. This also means that, with the same power input, the individual pulses have a higher energy density than the continous beam. Think of it as a quick charge up and shoot for each pulse.


The MWO implementation of the pulse lasers isn't too bad if you view it from a techznical point of view as well since they paid respect to a lot of small details, which i, being an engineer, like quite a lot.

here are a two examples regarding a relatively realistic implementation:
*higher energy density -> color/frequency of the pulse laser beams shifted towards shorter wave lengths (clan MPL are a bit more green'ish than the ERML for example)
*higher cutting power with the same power input -> same heat when fired but more damage

[Luscious Dan]

The red/green/blue color for small/medium/large actually makes sense now that I think about it. Now I want purple/UV lasers of doom to be even stronger than larges.

Never took physics in high school or university, but I do love me some science so this makes me happy inside.

[IraqiWalker]

Luscious Dan, on 02 September 2015 - 11:04 AM, said:

The red/green/blue color for small/medium/large actually makes sense now that I think about it. Now I want purple/UV lasers of doom to be even stronger than larges.

Never took physics in high school or university, but I do love me some science so this makes me happy inside.

Physics is one of those disciplines where you would have a lot more fun with it, if you study it on your own, instead of in school.

[KraftySOT]

And pulse lasers have the added advantage of making you a walking dubstep concert.

Wubwubwubwubwubwub.

[White Bear 84]

Fenrisulvyn, on 18 August 2015 - 11:17 PM, said:

"that can only shoot 600m"

Most of your battles are fought within 500m. So the ERLL doesn't have as much play.

Not to mention you can get the range modules and some quirks on mechs increase the distance..

[Nightshade24]

Lore wise it can also go on a more rapid fire version which makes it good at shooting down aircraft, infantry, light vehicles, etc. Instead of a large concentration of pulses and then reload it was more like pulses with a bit of a pause between each pulse making it kind of like a laser machine gun


One major strength of it in MW: O is higher damage ,faster burn time, and it's a good way to use more tons for crit slots as some mechs are very space hungry.

[Zelumbras]

On a semi-unrelated note:

Whenever i drop in a match with a pure pulse laser 'mech, i greet everyone with the unique and cute pulse laser Kirby

(>'.')> ~ ~ ~ *wub wub wub*

and end the match with the

(>'.')7 *kirby salute*