131 replies to this topic

[Jeffrey Wilder]

Current games are much better than ELO hell days. I think this system is good to stay.

Got to be patient to let your new ranking settle in before making comments.

[H i e u]

yes, bring back pls. newcomer will learn to fight experience player.

[Lyoto Machida]

Lugh, on 21 August 2015 - 08:00 AM, said:

NO NO NO NO.

Please, you say that you are here to listen.

The MM is making teams as = as is mathematically possible at any given time. Teams being more = means that YOU personally have to do better than you ever had to before, because there are fewer mouth breathing morons on the other side for you to exploit, they are all much closer in skill to you.

When everyone is as skilled as you are, the TEAM that focuses better is the one that wins.

You are losing because YOU are NOT AS GOOD as the MM ranking thought you were.

Easy case in point for anyone that watches MMA...guys go like 20-3 in smaller organizations and then get to the UFC and end up going 3-5 and getting cut. Many times, they were just the big fish in small ponds and then found out they weren't as big of a fish as they thought when they swam into the ocean. People get exposed over time with enough chances.

Basically, the guy you were quoting got thrown into a higher level of comp due to previous performance in the old system and may not have what it takes to stay in his current tier. No shame in that but he has to adjust and pick up his performance or get cut and drop down a tier or two until he hits his skill/performance equilibrium.

[Tesunie]

PORONOPAPOS, on 21 August 2015 - 03:47 AM, said:

Tesunie , thanks for your answer. your analysis as why stomps (by stomps you guys mean scores like 0-12 or 2-12 right?) now happen more often looks right. But for me there are two problems with this :

1. personally I don't like stomp matches even if I'm in the wining side. I didn't like them before because I felt they had little chalenge but now that I almost get only stomp matches I really hate it. I don't see any challenge in this game any more since according to your analysis when one of the teams gets 1-2 kills first, then the match is almost over and the other team can't turn the outcome. for me the fun is trying to turn a match outcome when you are out numbered. Personally I won 2-3 matches in this way in the past while left last of my team and managed to get the last 2 or 3 players of the enemy team, and that was really fun and challenging.

2. and most important : if the new tier system creates and brings to fight 2 equally skilled teams then for every player playing with random teams (as I do) the Win/losses ratio statistically should be around 1, right? But as I wrote before for the past 3 days I almost get only defeats, actually I get a win only every 6-7 defeats. This can't be random or only due to my bad luck.
anyone here could explain this to me? please dont tell me that I will sunk to lower tier and get better matches sover time , this doesn't explain the statistical anomaly of the win/loss ratio I get recenlty.

I've tried to read through the newer posts, but I'm just going to disregard them (though there were some good ones), and just answer your questions myself and see if I can explain in a different manner. Some of this was already covered, I know.

1. Statistically, in any team game, stomps are going to happen. When you even out the playing fields (skill levels, mechs, weapons, etc), they become even more frequent. However, there are ways to try and mitigate this from happening to you, though it isn't easy. To do so, pull out your laser pointer, and get your heard of cats... Oh sorry. (Joke reference here.) Anyway, to better your chances in trying to prevent a stomp on your team, you should communicate as best you can. If you have a mic, that's better. If not, try to learn to type fast?

Anyway, having someone call out targets to be shot at can be a great help. Moving with your team, and advising your teammates to do the same (such as trying to get them to move to grid F3 or something) can provide that little bit of guidance your team needs. If you start to lose, equal skill or not, try to get your teammates to reform for a better chance of a counter. Always reform to your slowest mechs (assaults).

I've still had a stomp reversal in the new match system. It just is less likely now, and less rare. If you care about winning matches, I'd honestly would suggest joining a group or unit. It's where you can get more competitive with your game and aim for winning more. Otherwise, I'd suggest you ignore wins and losses, and instead concentrate on how fun the matches are now overall. (Though, I will agree that the closer the matches are, typically the more fun they are as well.)

2. At the start of every match, you have the same chances of winning as your enemies do. However, this doesn't mean you have an actual 50% chance of winning. Sadly, there are 23 other players in the game, who may all be around the same skill level as you (when the system gathers enough data of course), but they will never actually BE the same skill level as you. (As in, exactly as skilled as you are). This means, all it takes is for one person on either side to do a mistake (rambo into the enemy team alone for example), and now your team is short one player. Or, (something I seem to becoming known for in my Arctic Cheetah) shoot one too many times, shut down, and die young and early in the match. (Oops, my bad.)

With 11 other people on your team, you can't exactly control the performance of them all, making your chances of winning very dependent on them. But recall, every time you lose, someone else had to win.

The difference now compared to Elo was, your Elo could be inflated or deflated based on how the rest of the team preformed, compared to your actual skill/performance before hand. Elo always worked to try and balance out your W/L rate. Now, instead, it doesn't matter to MM with the PSR if you win or lose, but how well you preform in a match. Do well, you'll still gain in rank. Do poorly, and either you'll stay the same or drop down a little.

So, despite winning or losing right now, I'd have to ask you some questions in return:
- How fun have your matches been, excluding the win or lose condition?
- How well have you (individually) been preforming? You may be in a PSR currently that is too high or low for yourself. The more you and others play, the better the PSR will be able to rank you properly.
- Don't try to worry or control what your teammates will do in a PUG. Worry about yourself and your performance within the team. This leads to the question: How well are you at intuitively working within a team?

Your next few matches, win or lose, I want you to do something for me. Observe the match as it plays out. It's hard not to focus and gain tunnel vision, but seriously try. Those stomps that happen, can you see how they are happening? I know as of late, I've been able to see exactly where the turning points are for most of my matches now. I can literally see, either in person or on the map, exactly when the stomp begins. Either it's because the other team murder balled and focused fired, or they had a flanking unit tactfully sneak around behind and pincered the other team.

Often times, even if you can identify and acknowledge where the stomp came from and how it happened, it often times doesn't mean you'll be able to stop it. But, it should be more clear now than back with Elo. Before this system, I just saw my teammates (or myself) do the same things, and we'd often unexplainably do poorly and get stomped. I'll also admit, it happened less often, as the more skilled players often times could make the difference.

In the end, I'd just advise you to worry about your own skill performance. Your personal "win condition" should be to try and gain a higher match score. If you can continue to gain high match scores, even on a stomp lose, your PSR should increase, which means that the PSR of your allies should also increase.

(I'll admit, I've been winning a lot more of my matches right now. I'm sure it's bound to change at some point. So, between your report and my report, seems we are probably around 50% w/l together... )

Widowmaker1981, on 21 August 2015 - 06:20 AM, said:

In this case 'adapting my game' means one of two things: keep playing my fun, sub par mechs i enjoy for the solo queue until my PSR tanks enough, or switch to 100% Wubshee

There is literally no chance i will ever be as good in an Adder with 2 ERPPCs as i am in a 5 LPL wubshee, because its a massively worse mech. (and i have 1500 games in the Wubshee) - and that is my point. My average match score in the Wubshee should NOT be deciding my tier in the Adder. My average match score in the ADDER should (or, split into L/M/H/A). I can see no argument for why having a PSR per weight class would be a problem for the system.

I feel it should be a PSR based per mech, or have some mech multiplier so better equipped mechs will multiply your SPR score. (AKA: The better mechs inflate your PSR to match their performance.) Trust me, I get what you are saying. I too have mechs I preform well in, and others that I like but don't do so well in. Lets just say, my assault piloting skills should be questioned...

[Tesunie]

PORONOPAPOS, on 21 August 2015 - 08:26 AM, said:

sorry we are not talkling about a 1 vs 1 game! it's not my loss, it's the whole team losing!
what you write means that every time my (random) team loses is because of me? but if MM got wrong for my ranking and put me in a higher than my true level team that means that the other 11 players have better than my "true" rank, so they should be able to win the matches. If you noticed I wrote that for 2 hours gaming now I get losses where I usually get 1st or 2nd scored, so I assume i'm about as good or bad as the others. But I say one last time, I don't "whine" here about my personal performance being my problem. I honestly believe i get drops with worst teams now than before , you can see this because now noone coops or pushing or even talk about plan. I don't know if this is due to the ELO or new system or anything else, I know it sucks as gaming experience

Sounds like your skills do not match your PSR. If you are scoring top of your team most games, your skill level is probably higher than your teammates (and typical opponent). However, one more skilled player can't turn the tide of a team game most times.

Keep playing. It sounds like your PSR needs to go up, so you can start to fight with and against players of more equivalent skills as you do, with similar performance.

[Widowmaker1981]

Tesunie, on 21 August 2015 - 08:52 AM, said:

I feel it should be a PSR based per mech, or have some mech multiplier so better equipped mechs will multiply your SPR score. (AKA: The better mechs inflate your PSR to match their performance.) Trust me, I get what you are saying. I too have mechs I preform well in, and others that I like but don't do so well in. Lets just say, my assault piloting skills should be questioned...

I think that per mech is a little too confusing to look at, and also open to abuse by deliberately tanking one chassis down to rank 5 PSR and using that to occasionally farm the crap out of scrubs for giggles, and then play 3 games where you overheat suicide 'by mistake' before you do 100 dmg to keep your PSR low. I doubt people are likely to do that for an entire weight class, but for one chassis, they might.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Running with the same ppl over and over is by design



I didnt post that twice, it displays that way -.- I dont do twitter

[Tesunie]

Even back with Elo, I still often crashed with the same names several games in a row.

Still do with the new system from time to time.

For the most part, with Elo or PSR, it's been about the same randomness for me, where I occasionally get the same person a couple of times in a row, and then I'll get players I don't recall.


Don't forget, some of that is also based on when you play. There are busy moments of activity where you will have more variety of players in your matches, and low population times where you will be more likely to face the same names more often. Nature of Online gaming I guess.

[Kjudoon]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 21 August 2015 - 09:04 AM, said:

Running with the same ppl over and over is by design



I didnt post that twice, it displays that way -.- I dont do twitter

I don't care how many times it pairs me with the same players as long as the players that are bad are on the other team.

[Tesunie]

PORONOPAPOS, on 21 August 2015 - 10:17 AM, said:

Tesunie thank you for your long post and your time to provide me some answers. I will try to anwer your questions.

"- How fun have your matches been, excluding the win or lose condition?" :
well, previously I used to have more fun (not because of winning or killing more). But it was more often to drop in a team that acting as team even in random teams (I only play in such matches). All these advices you tell me in your 1. about communicating focus fire etc. happened quite often and the matches were many times fun even if lost. Now I get lot of matches when my teammates dont even talk or type.....and end up fast to stomp matches losses.

"How well have you (individually) been preforming? You may be in a PSR currently that is too high or low for yourself. The more you and others play, the better the PSR will be able to rank you properly."
previously I had often matches with high kill/damage score. Now I don't, but this is not bad, I as the rest of you prefer the more challenging fight due to more equal enemies I facing. The real problem is that before, my good performance could make the difference in several games, so that was a motivation to try to perform as best a I could. Now even if I get good score that means nothing because almost all time I end up losing a stomp game. So I found myself in several games when the "snowball" begins to give up and just waiting to be killed bacause there is no point keep fighting.

"Don't try to worry or control what your teammates will do in a PUG. Worry about yourself and your performance within the team. This leads to the question: How well are you at intuitively working within a team?"
well, as I said, now I drop over and over again with "silent" teams or one that everybody goes his own way. so not much space to " working within a team" even if I try.

I know the new system needs time, I see that most of you like it, and also like the "stomp" games, but personally I would prefer a MM system that matches in a team players with more wide range of skill level, by this I don't mean return to previouss ELO but something between maybe that wouldn't allow stomp matche sto happen so often.

and about you second post, saying I do 1st or 2nd score I dont mean I'm better than the other teamates, I just feel that many times in these recent games I try more than the others without any result.

Note: I'm tired as I write this, so any mistake I apologize in advanced.

Sometimes (and no, I'm not pointing fingers or anything here), the communication needs to start with you. Sometimes, once one person starts, the rest joins. (Other times, you get the silent treatment no matter what.) I've experienced that most of my matches, with Elo and now, are "silent" matches. Besides myself (which I can be very chatty in the comms), my matches tend to have very little conversation.

Your good performance can still make a difference, but one person does not an army make. As the expression goes, "Win as a team, or lose as a team." I've come across some really great mechwarriors, but they were a nightmare for their teams because they made lousy teammates.(Not accusing your personally of anything.) I'd just always try to do my best, even if my team is being stomped. Even if I'm the last man standing, with only half a leg left, I'm going to stand and fight till I can't fight any more. (If I got no guns left, then RAMMING SPEED!)

Even when the snowball of a stomp begins, it's always worth fighting. I've been reduced to a legged Cicada before, with 4 enemy mechs left to kill. Somehow (don't ask, I got lucky I think), being the last man alive, I managed to get a victory because my teammates (and I fully admit it) managed to damage them so badly before they went down that I was able to tap them and kill them. You never know when your stomp is a few points of damage away from being reversed. Often times, it's mech rotation that's preventing you from gaining the kills over your opponent. I know of several stomps that's happened recently where I and some of my teammates was an eye blink away from death. I didn't die only because I didn't get shot at again.

As far as teamwork, I'm not talking about the communicative kind (though that is the best kind). I'm talking about intuitive team work skill (which is not an easy skill to develop). The ability to work within a team without saying a word is an important skill to have. Just knowing what you should do for the team, where you need to be for the team, and just picking up the delicate movements of people and aiding their efforts can be a great help. Many of my recent matches I've just seen a mech or two push along a flank. I see I'm as fast as they are and right next to them, so I go with them. We ended up winning because our small group got to a vital spot, and when we pushed, our allies saw it (no words were needed) and they pushed a few moments afterwards when the enemy were exposed and dealing with us behind them.

Intuitive team work skills are the hardest thing to work on. There is no way to "train" these skills, and it's based on the individual to learn it as best they can. Some teams will click, others will not. (Like, for example, if my twin and I are on the same team together, we need no words to work together. We just know what the other is likely to do, and so we just do what we need to do.)


It really does sound, though I do like your "I'm not going to boast about it" attitude, like your PSR is not where it belongs, and that you belong in a slightly higher rank than you are at. It also appears as though you were at a higher equivalent Elo ranking before hand from what you describe by in game chatter. Keep doing your best, and let your match score speak for itself. Eventually, you should be placed in the rank that best suits your skills. I think when that happens, you'll be much better off.


PS: I don't want to say I "like" the stomps. However, I don't mind being stomped (or stomping even) if I can clearly see why it's happening. Before with Elo I couldn't see why my team was being stomped. One moment I had teammates to my sides, the next I would have the enemy around me and my teammates are dead. Now, I see what's causing the stomps, and it seems more tactics and team intuitive work that's producing it, rather than just a small group on each team "wreaking face". I don't mind a stomp if I can see why it's happening, which means I may be able to stop it if I'm good enough.

[Kjudoon]

No trial mechs in your tier? It is sad that the golden era of Monday Marik Madness is gone. Oh when 14 ton20 trial mechs could end up in a sync drop and just go crazy together.

[Tesunie]

Hum. When did this get moved to "Jettisoned Communications"?