87 replies to this topic

[Kjudoon]

At this rate, throw out ECM as equipment, assume it's on every mech for free and sod this silly debate. we all know it's broken, it needs fixing or removal, but they keep putting it on everything new. So let's just say screw it, ECM for everyone, Tags 2000m and invisible, BAP/CLAP covers 350m and is 1 ton. and give LRMs convergence to hit all the same component.

Problem solved....

Not really, it's just just absurd.

[ChewBaka]

Otto Cannon, on 20 August 2015 - 10:34 PM, said:

Like the players who insist ECM is fine despite blindingly obvious evidence that it's objectively OP because they either don't have the skills to deal with LRMs or just want to play the game in easymode?

LRMs are easy mode. You're just squatting there raining down dmg and having it easy as long as your teammates are around to screen for you. The way ECM works now actually forces you to do something instead of sitting behind your teammates.

Lyoto Machida, on 21 August 2015 - 12:58 AM, said:

Let's think logically about this for a second. What actually takes more skill? Hiding behind ECM and running whatever weapons you want or running LRMs and trying to counter ECM? Nevermind the severe difference in tonnage...

One is much more difficult than the other in this current environment. Factor in the tonnage and its a no brainer which situation is easier.

Since there are presumably going to be so many ECM mechs on the field, what is the harm in extending BAP's range to 400 or 500 meters? Or if that's too much, give TAG a 750m range with a beam that can only be seen in heat vision.

I agree that there are far too much ECM mechs in the field, and I do agree that the hard counter of ECM isn't an ideal solution.

However, if there's going to be a substantial change in ECM mechanics, than LRMs do need to be rebalanced too in order to adjust. Else they're just going to be the top dmg dealing weapon among the lower tiers. Remember back when there was a LRM fest some time back? Yup...we'll be going back to that.

[Joseph Mallan]

Nightmare1, on 20 August 2015 - 07:05 PM, said:

I'd have to agree with both of these comments.

And it will stay that way until PGI really make them better to use and stop listening to the "LRMs ate my baby" whiners.

[Galenit]

Charlie Pohr, on 21 August 2015 - 02:56 AM, said:

LRMs are easy mode. You're just squatting there raining down dmg and having it easy as long as your teammates are around to screen for you. The way ECM works now actually forces you to do something instead of sitting behind your teammates.

Seems you have never played a real lrm mech.
The ones that sit back and spam are not the ones iam worring about.
Because most lrm-users are standing back and spam,
is the reason i still dont have unlocked radarderp.

[ChewBaka]

Kjudoon, on 21 August 2015 - 01:22 AM, said:

At this rate, throw out ECM as equipment, assume it's on every mech for free and sod this silly debate. we all know it's broken, it needs fixing or removal, but they keep putting it on everything new. So let's just say screw it, ECM for everyone, Tags 2000m and invisible, BAP/CLAP covers 350m and is 1 ton. and give LRMs convergence to hit all the same component.

Problem solved....

Not really, it's just just absurd.

I keep hearing this thing about convergence. LRMs tend to focus on the torso region. In some ways, that makes it more effective than other weapons. Its not like we can twist and block it with our arms.

You lose the ability to focus on a specific torso portion in exchange for the ability to rain down dmg from above and bypass shielding arms. Its fair.
If you want more convergence with LRMs, I'm going to have to insist that we be allowed to raise our mech arms above our heads like an umbrella.

[Kjudoon]

Galenit, on 21 August 2015 - 03:03 AM, said:

Seems you have never played a real lrm mech.
The ones that sit back and spam are not the ones iam worring about.
Because most lrm-users are standing back and spam,
is the reason i still dont have unlocked radarderp.

Which ones are you worried about so I can play that way.

Does this worry you?



Or how about this?



Which scares you more.

[Galenit]

Charlie Pohr, on 21 August 2015 - 03:07 AM, said:

I keep hearing this thing about convergence. LRMs tend to focus on the torso region. In some ways, that makes it more effective than other weapons. Its not like we can twist and block it with our arms.

You lose the ability to focus on a specific torso portion in exchange for the ability to rain down dmg from above and bypass shielding arms. Its fair.
If you want more convergence with LRMs, I'm going to have to insist that we be allowed to raise our mech arms above our heads like an umbrella.

If you turn, the lrms still want to go to the torso, but your sidetorso and arm in the way, they get hit, not the torso.
Sure, there are some mechs that can be hit from above more then others, like the crab or dire, but most mechs can shild their torso from lrms with a side and an arm.
And you can roll the damage against lrms a lot better then against ppcs and ballistics.

[Kjudoon]

Charlie Pohr, on 21 August 2015 - 03:07 AM, said:

I keep hearing this thing about convergence. LRMs tend to focus on the torso region. In some ways, that makes it more effective than other weapons. Its not like we can twist and block it with our arms.

You lose the ability to focus on a specific torso portion in exchange for the ability to rain down dmg from above and bypass shielding arms. Its fair.
If you want more convergence with LRMs, I'm going to have to insist that we be allowed to raise our mech arms above our heads like an umbrella.

Obviously you don't play them much They are SUPPOSED to center in on CT, but they often have everything else get in their way, and why then do I always seem to tear up legs? Because they spread, badly. I'm just pointing out, as always to those who don't get it, the primary advantage of DF weaponry is stacking damage on one component. If you give it to LRMs, it's unfair, or they demand some sort of way to mitigate damage, even if you made that a random component. But when they have spread, well, that's fine then.

Go ahead, allow mechs to raise their arms. I'm all for it. More component destruction for me if it was true it would stop damage better. I used to blow limbs off like nobody's business. Then they took away splash and spread the weapon out more, slowed it down a bit more and generally has crap hit reg.

That's why I barely if every play my favorite weapon and playstyle anymore because it's all Lazorblerch or lose now... which sucks.

Weapon balance has gone from "Rock Paper Scissors" to "Rock Rok Rawk", because the scissors of ACs cannot keep up with lazorblerch with a few very distinctive exceptions.

Edited by Kjudoon, 21 August 2015 - 03:18 AM.

[Lugh]

Kjudoon, on 21 August 2015 - 03:17 AM, said:

Obviously you don't play them much They are SUPPOSED to center in on CT, but they often have everything else get in their way, and why then do I always seem to tear up legs? Because they spread, badly. I'm just pointing out, as always to those who don't get it, the primary advantage of DF weaponry is stacking damage on one component. If you give it to LRMs, it's unfair, or they demand some sort of way to mitigate damage, even if you made that a random component. But when they have spread, well, that's fine then.

Go ahead, allow mechs to raise their arms. I'm all for it. More component destruction for me if it was true it would stop damage better. I used to blow limbs off like nobody's business. Then they took away splash and spread the weapon out more, slowed it down a bit more and generally has crap hit reg.

That's why I barely if every play my favorite weapon and playstyle anymore because it's all Lazorblerch or lose now... which sucks.

Weapon balance has gone from "Rock Paper Scissors" to "Rock Rok Rawk", because the scissors of ACs cannot keep up with lazorblerch with a few very distinctive exceptions.

So totally weird then that the AC builds I am running seem to have little trouble with laser vomit.

Wonder why that is???

[Kjudoon]

Lugh, on 21 August 2015 - 03:22 AM, said:

So totally weird then that the AC builds I am running seem to have little trouble with laser vomit.

Wonder why that is???

LOL.... shhhh! Your mad skillz be showin, brah.

....This is why we can't have nice allegories.

Edited by Kjudoon, 21 August 2015 - 03:29 AM.

[oldradagast]

Charlie Pohr, on 21 August 2015 - 02:56 AM, said:

LRMs are easy mode. You're just squatting there raining down dmg and having it easy as long as your teammates are around to screen for you. The way ECM works now actually forces you to do something instead of sitting behind your teammates.

Lol - seriously?

LRM's require no skill to randomly hit something, but they require respectable skill to use well. Know the ranges, carry counter measures, get close enough to use them but not too close that you end up in brawl, know the maps well enough to understand when you can't hit that target behind cover, etc.

ECM requires no skill at all - just turn it on and watch as you go into stealth mode.

If LRM's were so easy and such great weapons, they'd be everywhere at the higher tiers of the game. In reality, nobody uses them there because of all the issues with them: easily countered, warning given when fired, slow flight time, damage scatter, etc. Meanwhile, ECM - which you claim requires "skill" to use (I guess hitting J now and then takes skill), is everywhere at the top levels.

Come on, people... let's get real here.

[ChewBaka]

Kjudoon, on 21 August 2015 - 03:17 AM, said:

Obviously you don't play them much They are SUPPOSED to center in on CT, but they often have everything else get in their way, and why then do I always seem to tear up legs? Because they spread, badly. I'm just pointing out, as always to those who don't get it, the primary advantage of DF weaponry is stacking damage on one component. If you give it to LRMs, it's unfair, or they demand some sort of way to mitigate damage, even if you made that a random component. But when they have spread, well, that's fine then.

Go ahead, allow mechs to raise their arms. I'm all for it. More component destruction for me if it was true it would stop damage better. I used to blow limbs off like nobody's business. Then they took away splash and spread the weapon out more, slowed it down a bit more and generally has crap hit reg.

That's why I barely if every play my favorite weapon and playstyle anymore because it's all Lazorblerch or lose now... which sucks.

Weapon balance has gone from "Rock Paper Scissors" to "Rock Rok Rawk", because the scissors of ACs cannot keep up with lazorblerch with a few very distinctive exceptions.

Chill dude. Why do people assume that everyone is extremes in a debate?

Look, its not that I think LRMs have no role or should be side-lined as a weapon or whatever. However, my personal experience with LRM boats are that they are really easy to pilot and score a ton of dmg with (unfocused dmg is still dmg = score = c-bills/XP) unless the other team has too much ECM or your team just crumbles apart from lousy strategy.

Someone else has already mentioned on this forum that its a feast-or-famine weapon and I agree with that viewpoint. However, I think its perfectly fair that you can have moments of feasting in exchange for the occasional famine where you are locked down. It doesn't make the overall experience very fun though.

If you want to take out the famine bit, no problem, but the feasting bit should also be at least toned down somewhat for balance. My concern now is that nerfing ECMs might make the public queue into a LRM fiesta. I just want things evened out somewhat.

[Kjudoon]

The quickest way to tone down the feast/famine and get players to take smaller amounts of missiles it to ditch AMS, or at least only apply it to yourself, nothing more. Right now, taking less than 20LRMs on any size mech is almost an exercise in futility except as a scare tactic or if you get lucky. You have to boat them to get anything done otherwise. Thankfully, people are now swinging back towards ECM in this department, leaving off the AMS, so if you can get a lock a single LRM10 or 15 has a chance of being more than a waste.

Sure you'll still get boats, but you still would have the same ECM issues, and people still know how to use OP cover. So they're not perfect, but the near absolute need to boat will end.

[ChewBaka]

oldradagast, on 21 August 2015 - 03:31 AM, said:

Lol - seriously?

LRM's require no skill to randomly hit something, but they require respectable skill to use well. Know the ranges, carry counter measures, get close enough to use them but not too close that you end up in brawl, know the maps well enough to understand when you can't hit that target behind cover, etc.

ECM requires no skill at all - just turn it on and watch as you go into stealth mode.

If LRM's were so easy and such great weapons, they'd be everywhere at the higher tiers of the game. In reality, nobody uses them there because of all the issues with them: easily countered, warning given when fired, slow flight time, damage scatter, etc. Meanwhile, ECM - which you claim requires "skill" to use (I guess hitting J now and then takes skill), is everywhere at the top levels.

Come on, people... let's get real here.

I'm not interested in higher tiers or group queues. Its the public queue that I'm concerned about, where every starting player begins at.

Also, I never at any point state that using ECM requires 'skill'. I'm just saying that it actually adds challenge back to driving a LRM boat. Every single thing that you state is not difficult to do provided you don't insist on driving a slow-ass assault LRM boat.

I don't think I'm a good player. I can do a ton of dmg in a LRM boat provided my team doesn't crumble around me or the other side has too much ECM.

All things considered, I'll just go where the wind blows. I'm perfectly willing to hop back into my LRM boats if that's how it goes. No skin off my back. I'll let PGI deal with the statistics instead to decide what to do.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Kjudoon, on 20 August 2015 - 07:59 PM, said:

I need to see video of this mythical Jman carrying his match and the match next to him with his Hunchie J. I need to see if there's a trick or two to being that awesome an Lurm pilot. My game isn't nearly that good.

I can show you some awesome carrying in a Warhawk B

[mogs01gt]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 20 August 2015 - 04:47 PM, said:

Last game I was told theres a "known issue" with LRMs. Ive been getting 500+ damage games since the patch. Whats the issue? Never got a reply

I dont know if there is an issue but they are feast or famine. They are truly map dependent and the ECM bubble really rekts them.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Kjudoon, on 21 August 2015 - 01:22 AM, said:

At this rate, throw out ECM as equipment, assume it's on every mech for free and sod this silly debate. we all know it's broken, it needs fixing or removal, but they keep putting it on everything new. So let's just say screw it, ECM for everyone, Tags 2000m and invisible, BAP/CLAP covers 350m and is 1 ton. and give LRMs convergence to hit all the same component.

Problem solved....

Not really, it's just just absurd.

Ive said exactly this

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

El Bandito, on 20 August 2015 - 08:56 PM, said:

ECM proliferation is certainly an issue with the LRMs.

Wheres that quote by Russ where he said if everyone uses something its not OP its just good?

[Lily from animove]

Wrong with them is they liek buildings and trees and those big rocks way too much.

[Chados]

Cool videos, Kjudoon! Especially the first one. An outstanding display of in-your-face LRM fighting. I am but a padawan in the Zen of the LRM, and not yet a Jedi Master , but I enjoy seeing my favorite weapon used well. The Catapult in your first video is, in my opinion, a good illustration of why I personally don't like to boat a single weapon system and instead like a balanced loadout including short range weapons. It's never good to find yourself face to face with a bad guy and have nothing at all to shoot. My A1C Catapult thankfully came with an XL engine, so I can pack SRMs too. And boy, they come in handy.

I think that it is possible to use LRMs and have fun with them in the current ECM-rich environment. It isn't easy mode, though, like people think. Sitting back 900 meters away and hoping for locks isn't usually effective, though it can help suppress long-distance hill humpers and poptarters assuming a UAV is up or a scout is close enough to get a lock. I try to pack a UAV and save it for situations where my team is pinned by snipers. BAP helps but not much; nevertheless, I do not drop without it on a missile carrier because it can help the brawlers if I'm close enough to debuff an ECM. Artemis is not optional because it speeds up lock time, and the target decay module is helpful to use techniques like off-angle shooting and missile bending (shout out to Catalina Steiner for her videos teaching these techniques); I emptied my Cbill account to get one the other day and I'm glad I did. Clan mechs all seem to have CLRMs and Clan tech predominates, so I carry AMS on everything that has the hardpoints and it helps. I also carry jets whenever I can to help get me out of holes or up obstacles, or soften falls. The pros of the LRM as I see it are flexibility to target either directly or indirectly or to fire when ECM blind, and the concomitant ability to pilot in a style that doesn't require racing around in circles at 130kph or needing advanced zoom to hill hump from a klick away to compete at all. I don't have the l33t k3wl twitch lazor sn1per skillz of Captain Tryhard or his effervescent sidekick, Metagirl, or the modules needed to play the sniper game effectively (and it's boring). Besides, my current machine can't keep up with the frame rates to play like that even if I wanted to, and I get motion sick anyway.

I'd like to see ECM adjusted so it isn't a magic cloak against a missile lock. But it can be coped with. It's often frustrating, and no other weapon system has to be strategized in the same way. But they can be used successfully.