377 replies to this topic

[Vlad Ward]

Triordinant, on 21 August 2015 - 11:34 PM, said:

Are you advocating allowing groups into the solo-only queue? Or merging the solo queue and group queue which amounts to the same thing? Think well before you answer.

Not sure I understand bolded. Are you trying to intimidate me, or is there some philosophical difference between these options that I'm not seeing?

Yes. I'm advocating ditching the separation entirely and simply having a Normal Queue, with 3/3/3/3 and PSR and all the other fancy bells and whistles the matchmaker has now.

[Kjudoon]

And how do you then keep tier 5 and tier 1 from mixing? Ban grouping with other tiers? How do you solve the group average psr that has wrecked group queue due to large groups. The 5+ expansion was one of the greatest player pushed changes to the pub queues ever because now high skill players can easily be hidden in large groups for horrific mismatches. Your suggestion undoes a huge advancement in this game: the solo queue.

[Triordinant]

Vlad Ward, on 21 August 2015 - 11:37 PM, said:

Not sure I understand bolded. Are you trying to intimidate me, or is there some philosophical difference between these options that I'm not seeing?

Yes. I'm advocating ditching the separation entirely and simply having a Normal Queue, with 3/3/3/3 and PSR and all the other fancy bells and whistles the matchmaker has now.

You didn't react to my reply, which normally means you're not contesting it. Hence my confusion and subsequent query. Do you actually believe MWO will survive if PGI does what you suggest?

[Kjudoon]

Interesting idea. Change grouping function into a sort of sanctioned sync drop. What makes sync drops more fair is that every psr is taken individually. If you are too missmatched you will not drol together. Skill remains balanced and you get the added chaos you might be facing each other instead.

So why not create a synced group that keeps you together only if you have equal tiers but if you dont the group separates into those matched blocks. You wont be opposing each other but if you allow neighboring tiers to stick this could be good with a minimum of disruption by comparison.

[Vlad Ward]

Kjudoon, on 21 August 2015 - 11:45 PM, said:

And how do you then keep tier 5 and tier 1 from mixing? Ban grouping with other tiers? How do you solve the group average psr that has wrecked group queue due to large groups. The 5+ expansion was one of the greatest player pushed changes to the pub queues ever because now high skill players can easily be hidden in large groups for horrific mismatches. Your suggestion undoes a huge advancement in this game: the solo queue.

Mixing in what way?

If a tier 5 is in a group with a tier 1 buddy, they will show up as tier 3 in the matchmaker. This means they could pair with anyone, but ideally they will play with/against a bunch of tier 3s (or an equal number of tier 2s and 4s, or more 5s and 1s). 6 Tier 1s and 6 Tier 5s against a team of Tier 3s is honestly probably going to be worse for the mixed group than the Tier 3s...

Yes, group queue is currently having issues with tier gaps. This is a population problem. This would be solved by allowing solo players into the mix.

Finally, strong players can really only do so much when paired with significantly weaker teammates. There are limits to carry ability. Shall I start posting post-PSR screenshots of 1k+ damage losses now? I have plenty from both today and yesterday.

Triordinant, on 21 August 2015 - 11:45 PM, said:

You didn't react to my reply, which normally means you're not contesting it. Hence my confusion and subsequent query. Do you actually believe MWO will survive if PGI does what you suggest?

I didn't think "the sky is falling MWO would die, here's a youtube video" was a serious response, so I elected to ignore it.

Do I think MWO will survive?

Yes. It's been through a lot worse.

[Triordinant]

Vlad Ward, on 21 August 2015 - 11:53 PM, said:

Do I think MWO will survive?

Yes. It's been through a lot worse.

That's the point. The reason MWO survived was because they created the solo-only queue which stopped the exodus. If they'd done it sooner we'd have a lot more players now and a lot fewer problems caused by low population.

[Vlad Ward]

Kjudoon, on 21 August 2015 - 11:51 PM, said:

Interesting idea. Change grouping function into a sort of sanctioned sync drop. What makes sync drops more fair is that every psr is taken individually. If you are too missmatched you will not drol together. Skill remains balanced and you get the added chaos you might be facing each other instead.

So why not create a synced group that keeps you together only if you have equal tiers but if you dont the group separates into those matched blocks. You wont be opposing each other but if you allow neighboring tiers to stick this could be good with a minimum of disruption by comparison.

Hypothetical PGI: Hey, you're good at this game? Sorry bro, I'm afraid I can't let you introduce any friends to this game you love so much. They're going to start in Tier 4, but you're Tier 1, so you can't group up and play together.

I want to be able to play with my friends regardless of how good/bad they are. They're my friends. That's what matters. And right now, it's difficult to do that because the group queue population is just too small to get good games for anyone who isn't a comp tier player.

Note: I'm a retired comp player, and I generally keep up just fine in the group queue. I just recognize it's a persistent problem for a lot of people, and it's all too obvious when the MM is stretching tier gaps and 3/3/3/3 to their limits just to make a match.

Triordinant, on 21 August 2015 - 11:57 PM, said:

That's the point. The reason MWO survived was because they created the solo-only queue which stopped the exodus. If they'd done it sooner we'd have a lot more players now and a lot fewer problems caused by low population.

Low population is only a problem in CW and Group Queue. It's not because people aren't playing MWO, but rather all of MWO is playing in solo queue - even the unit players.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 21 August 2015 - 11:59 PM.

[Kjudoon]

You are not considering the ramifications then and just want to nuke the solo queue.

What kind of damage can a single tier 1 player do to a group of tier 3 and 4 players that are supposedly now evenly matched? How about now four tier 1s hidden by 4 tier 5s. Can you say seal clubbing roflstomp?

This is the problem of the group queue. And those solo low tier players cannot trust the mm and will walk away from the game. They owe you nothing to stay and be abused.

Yes i have done the competitive thing too. Learned how truly hollow and crappy that life is. That doesnt impress me because you seem to have forgotten what it is like to be bad, new or not interested in playing hardcore with a team.

[Vlad Ward]

No amount of Tier 1 God Mode can mask being 4 players down when those Tier 5s get instantly annihilated by their Tier 3 opponents.

Intentionally throwing Tier 1s and 5s together is, ironically, exactly what the old ELO matchmaker did for years until Tuesday's patch, and it worked overwhelming in favor of the teams of 12 moderately skilled players instead of the extreme l33t tier + underhive combos.

[Triordinant]

Vlad Ward, on 21 August 2015 - 11:57 PM, said:

Low population is only a problem in CW and Group Queue. It's not because people aren't playing MWO, but rather all of MWO is playing in solo queue - even the unit players.

Low population is a problem throughout MWO. It's the reason they removed the population counter. If we had double or triple the population we have now, they could implement the proper solution of 3 queues: solo queue, small casual group (2-4 man) queue and competitive Unit/CW queue (5-12 man). That's when almost everyone will be happy. They can't do it because of low overall population.

Edited by Triordinant, 22 August 2015 - 12:05 AM.

[Kjudoon]

For a former comp player you are not much of a student of the game, sociology or group psychology.

[Vlad Ward]

Triordinant, on 22 August 2015 - 12:04 AM, said:

Low population is a problem throughout MWO. It's the reason they removed the population counter. If we had double or triple the population we have now, they could implement the proper solution of 2 queues: solo queue, small casual group (2-4 man) queue and competitive Unit/CW queue (5-12 man). That's when almost everyone will be happy. They can't do it because of low overall population.

Okay? Let's assume that is the case, then. How would increasing total queue population not be good, then?

They can tune the matchmaker all they want, but at the end of the day More Population = Better Matches. You will have more closely matched teams, more comparable drop weights, and generally better games by adding more people to the mix.

So long as we have in-game VOIP to negate the benefit of TS3, and PSR matching people with teammates and opponents at the same skill level, who cares if players are in a group or not?

[Koniks]

Let's get some stats from PGI on matchmaking quality before making rash suggestions about dissolving the queues. Let's also be clear in evaluating what they did.

-PSR vs Elo exchanges one set of rating problems with another. That's a wash. Honestly, might just be a placebo with the new match score calculation as the sugar pill.
-The most positive thing they did was bucketing players into 5 groups. They also could have kept Elo and just done that.
-The worst thing they did was apply a single rating to an account, ditching the weight class ratings.

Basically, if you wouldn't have been in favor of merging the queues before, you shouldn't be now. Solo queue is a mess because the teams are still a hodgepodge of uncoordinated players. It's effectively an unranked queue moderated by matchmaking. Group queue draws players who want more coordination, organization, or ould otherwise play in a ranked queue. It at least tries to match appropriate groups against each other. We can debate how successful it was and is.

I'd say they're both a mess but better now than when they were combined. A decent 2-man can roll solo PUGs even with matchmaking. Separate queues, not matchmaker, is what solves for balancing self-preservation against the need for collective action.

Edited by Mizeur, 22 August 2015 - 12:09 AM.

[Kjudoon]

Tri, he doesnt seem to realize how precarious a position this game is in vis a vis player population.

If the Steam launch in Oct is a bust this game has only a little while to last because bad PR there will end this game rapidly if the new/casual player experience is not excellent. hardcore mode needs to keep away from the solo queue.

[Vlad Ward]

Kjudoon, on 22 August 2015 - 12:05 AM, said:

For a former comp player you are not much of a student of the game, sociology or group psychology.

No. I'm not. I'm a student of physics. At least that's what my degree's in. I get math. Numbers. A bit of programming and statistical modelling.

I also happen to be fairly decent at hovering my mouse cursor over virtual robots and clicking on them, and used to roll with a bunch of other guys who were fairly good at hovering their mouse cursor over virtual robots and clicking on them. What does that have to do with sociology or group psychology?

[Kjudoon]

Who cares?????

Those players being seL clubbed sure care. And there is an ongoing thread about howfew people use VOIP right now because of rampant abuse profanity and trolling. So it negates little.

You are advocating a better experi3nce for you and those like you. No one else.

[Triordinant]

Vlad Ward, on 22 August 2015 - 12:07 AM, said:

So long as we have in-game VOIP to negate the benefit of TS3, and PSR matching people with teammates and opponents at the same skill level, who cares if players are in a group or not?

Your assumptions are incorrect. It's not TS3 or skill level that causes the imbalance. It's the fact that comp teams train regularly, instinctively know each other's moves, memorize the maps and use 'mechs that are not only fully mastered with max modules, but 'mechs that have been carefully chosen to work together as a team.

[Kjudoon]

Numbers do not make up the totality of reality, sheldon lee cooper. They have less to do with how people feel and react.

So your alpeal to authority is a failure and gets you no pass. You still dont get what makes many gamers tick.

[Vlad Ward]

Mizeur, on 22 August 2015 - 12:08 AM, said:

Let's get some stats from PGI on matchmaking quality before making rash suggestions about dissolving the queues. Let's also be clear in evaluating what they did.

-PSR vs Elo exchanges one set of rating problems with another. That's a wash. Honestly, might just be a placebo with the new match score calculation as the sugar pill.
-The most positive thing they did was bucketing players into 5 groups. They also could have kept Elo and just done that.
-The worst thing they did was apply a single rating to an account, ditching the weight class ratings.

Basically, if you wouldn't have been in favor of merging the queues before, you shouldn't be now. Solo queue is a mess because the teams are still a hodgepodge of uncoordinated players. It's effectively an unranked queue moderated by matchmaking. Group queue draws players who want more coordination, organization, or ould otherwise play in a ranked queue. It at least tries to match appropriate groups against each other. We can debate how successful it was and is.

I'd say they're both a mess but better now than when they were combined. A decent 2-man can roll solo PUGs even with matchmaking. Separate queues, not matchmaker, is what solves for balancing self-preservation against the need for collective action.

Ehhhh. ELO and PSR operate under fundamentally different grouping philosophies, both in the solo and group queue.

ELO attempted to match the average rating of one team as closely as possible to the average rating of the opposing team. While players closest to the current mean team ELO were always selected first, this wasn't a guarantee that you didn't get extreme variations in pilot skill.

For example, if you wanted to form a team with an average ELO of 1950, but you had a player with ELO 2350 waiting in the queue, you'd have to balance that player with 4 players at 1850 or 1 player at 1550. This led to some horrific skill gaps on some teams that left a lot of players frustrated, and a lot of games ending with stomps.

PSR attempts to match all players horizontally. It will look at all the Tier 2s in a queue and scoop up 24 of them for a match if it can. If there are only 20 T2s in the queue, it'll scoop up 4 players from the high end of T3 or the low end of T1. It caps the maximum overall tier gap at 2, and therefore refuses to use extremes to achieve a reasonable mean skill rating the way ELO did.

I think this system will work a lot better overall. Horizontal matching is the only reason I feel remotely confident in suggesting that they remove group queue. At the end of the day, even if a team of T1 players drops down against a bunch of solos, those solos are all going to be T1-T2 themselves and they'll have the tools (namely VOIP) to defend themselves.

Triordinant, on 22 August 2015 - 12:16 AM, said:

Your assumptions are incorrect. It's not TS3 or skill level that causes the imbalance. It's the fact that comp teams train regularly, instinctively know each other's moves, memorize the maps and use 'mechs that are not only fully mastered with max modules, but 'mechs that have been carefully chosen to work together as a team.

Pretty much any player who's in Tier 1 is going to fit all of those criteria, whether they're in a group or not. Memorized maps? Maxed out, moduled mechs? Familiarity with standard tactics? Check, check, and check.

Kjudoon, on 22 August 2015 - 12:17 AM, said:

Numbers do not make up the totality of reality, sheldon lee cooper. They have less to do with how people feel and react.

So your alpeal to authority is a failure and gets you no pass. You still dont get what makes many gamers tick.

Er... that wasn't an appeal to authority. That was me wondering what the heck my being a retired comp player had to do with sociology, and an admission that - no - I really am not very great at it.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 22 August 2015 - 12:23 AM.

[Kjudoon]

You whipped out your alleged degrees as an attempt to purchase credibility. That is an appeal to authority argument.

As for what does your purported bone fides as a comp player.... Retired....have to do with sociology it sets the context you are arguing from. You have played at a high level and have forgotten there are many... Potentially the majority who could not or do not desire or enjoy that level of play. By forcing them into your sociological paradigm you usurp their vision for yours devaluatinv their experience for your benefit.

I may not have an advanced degree, but i am smart enough to recognize an argument from selfish interest.